Twin or Deluxe reverb?

[Manyrains]

In sort of the same vein as the thread about differences between bf and sf twins, deluxe reverbs etc: I have an early 70's silverface twin and a early 70's silverface DR, I'v had blackface mods on had both.

They are both incredible sounding amps- and I can't ever tell which one I like better. I haven't really done a lot of gigging since I got the DR; I'm sure if I gigged out alot I'd be able to form an opinion as to what I like better for certain situations, but playing by myself, recording at home- it's crazy. I'll be playing the Twin, it sounds awesome, got this huge, full , glassy tone, and i think that's the one I should like best- it's obviously the "better" of the two. But everytime I switch to the DR- that boxier, tighter sound just is awesome too- and I end up thinking I like it better.

Before I got the DR I sort of figured, and then read some things that confirmed- that the DR is sort od a smaller version of the twin, more useful for studio work. I haven't really found that to be the case. For one, my DR is almost louder than my Twin- when I asked a local tech if it was "too loud" he just said sometimes you get a hot one, and you got one. I drive myself crazy sometimes trying to figure out which amp I want to use for recording.

Curious about other people's thoughts, experiences along these lines.

Jim

[midnightsun]

Certainly, it is fun to compare and contrast but one isn't necessarily better than the other. I also have both. I tend to favor the DR because I can get the mojo at a lower volume for recording. From a tone standpoint they are each in their own world. Of course they have different power tubes 6V6 vs. 6L6. For recording I know that the DR will always sound good. There is nothing that beats a Twin and a tele for good ole country and western.

[Da Mill]

Pull one or two of the power tubes out of the twin & dig the nasty, ugly weird overdrive at low volume. You can do that on the deluxe too. I've owned both, and even the Deluxe was too loud for my studio. My fave studio amp was a '56 tweed princeton, 5 or so watts.

[preben]

I think that if you pull two power tubes out of the DR it almost certainly will be TOO quiet - even for most studio work

[Paul Secondino]

I have a showman reverb which is pretty much a twin in a head. Very nice amp that can sound fat or crisp. Very happy with it .I'm waiting for a local guy to sell me his DR but he's back and forth.

What I want the DR for is to get some extra power tube saturation. Now the DR is something close to 30 watts and the twin is closer to 85 or 90 . If you double the wattage on an amp, you gain 3 decibels of volume. That means that the twin is maybe 4 decibels louder than a DR.

I'd use the DR mainly when I wanted a more saturated lead as the DR will have less headroom than the twin. But other than that, both are great amps and whatever sounds good on one day is the one you should use

As a reminder, pulling power tubes changes your output impedance. So if you pull 2 6l6's from your twin, your output impedance changes from 8 to 16. Keep that in mind.

[Manyrains]

Whoa- I've never heard mention or thought of pulling power tubes before. Does that effect overall tone at all? And what are the implications of the different impedence? All I know is the 2 process a Tube Screamer pretty different- I've figured that has to do with the difference in inpedence

Since I'm not doing much gigging with a band, I'm never really playing loud enough to get full advantage. The first time I really turned my DR up enough to get that great overdrive was when I was not in my home studio, rather in a studio with the amp in a separate room. Anything over 3 (on the (bright?) channel- the 2nd channel- it's not here right now) is pretty darn loud. 31/2-4 is where it starts to overdirve.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by Da Mill

Pull one or two of the power tubes out of the twin & dig the nasty, ugly weird overdrive at low volume. You can do that on the deluxe too. I've owned both, and even the Deluxe was too loud for my studio.

"Pull one"? Do not do this. This is a phenomenally bad idea. Push-pull amps must have pairs of output tubes. A Deluxe Reverb has only 2 to begin with, so that's as far as it goes.

[Paul Secondino]

Originally Posted by Manyrains

Whoa- I've never heard mention or thought of pulling power tubes before. Does that effect overall tone at all? And what are the implications of the different impedence? All I know is the 2 process a Tube Screamer pretty different- I've figured that has to do with the difference in inpedence

Since I'm not doing much gigging with a band, I'm never really playing loud enough to get full advantage. The first time I really turned my DR up enough to get that great overdrive was when I was not in my home studio, rather in a studio with the amp in a separate room. Anything over 3 (on the (bright?) channel- the 2nd channel- it's not here right now) is pretty darn loud. 31/2-4 is where it starts to overdirve.

Pulling two power tubes (if you have 4) has little to do with reducing volume as you'll only lose about 3 db. What is noteworthy is you lose headroom and make the power section saturate a little earlier

The implication of altering your output impedance is that you better match the amps output with equal or greater resistance or you'll cook your output transformer.Don't do it if you aren't 100% sure what cabinet load you need..

[Joe Porto]

Being that the twin has a SS rectifier and the DR has a tube rectifier, the DR by nature will compress the signal. It has less dynamic range. Very nice for singing chords and lead work. I also like the breakup in a DR better. A little looser in the lows and warmer in the highs.

By the way, you can put 6L6 tubes in a DR. It will tighten up the bottom end, and it will break up later. It won't be any louder though, because the output tranny will saturate. Just remember to bias accordingly.

[popmann]

For recording? Not even close...go Deluxe.

[preben]

Just to be absolutely clear: I was joking when I talked about pulling 2 tubes from the DR. As Kafka rightly pointed out it only has two in the first place - hence the joke that if you pull those it will be very quiet (as in silent!).

You should definitely NOT pull just one of them out. Anyone who has heard an amp with a failing power tube will know that it's generally speaking not a desirable sound - and more importantly - even if you like the sound you won't be hearing it for very long as the amp is very likely to suffer permanent damage...

[gregl]

Before putting 6L6's in a Deluxe Reverb you should make sure that the power transformer can handle the extra filament current draw.

[Manyrains]

I think I'll be keeping my hands out of the back of either of 'em, and enjoy them as is

[Manyrains]

Originally Posted by popmann

For recording? Not even close...go Deluxe.

Say more about this?-
Thanks

[dewey decibel]

Originally Posted by Manyrains

Say more about this?-
Thanks

I'm not Popman, but I'll chime in.


A Twin Reverb is overkill for 90% of giging situations, and way overkill for most recording where you need even less power. 80 watts for a blackface Twin (more for a Silverface), it's just too much. And I love a clean sound, among other things I'm a jazz player. But even for a clean sound the amp has to be at a decent operating level- these are tube amps and the tubes need to be cooking a bit to sound good. On these Fender amps that usually starts at about 2 1/2 to 3 on the dial. On a Deluxe 3 will fill a room, on a Twin it will stun pets and small children.

For one, my DR is almost louder than my Twin- when I asked a local tech if it was "too loud" he just said sometimes you get a hot one, and you got one.

Maybe there's something wrong with your Twin.

Now the DR is something close to 30 watts and the twin is closer to 85 or 90 . If you double the wattage on an amp, you gain 3 decibels of volume. That means that the twin is maybe 4 decibels louder than a DR.

More like 18-22 watts. 6L6s will put it closer to 30.

About volume, it's not necessarily the watts, don't forget it's also a 1x12" vs a 2x12"-a 2x12" pushes much more air and increases the volume plenty. Try a Deluxe with a 12" in an extension cab and you'll see what I mean. But for me it's not the volume so much as the "feel", tube amps are great because of the way they respond to your touch. But as I said earlier you need to get them to a certain point on the dial to get that happening, and on a Twin at that point you're putting out a lot of volume. Some people like the sort of attenuated, cold sound of a Twin on 1 1/2, but I'm not one of them.

[nedorama]

Deluxe Reverb, unless you enjoy back pain - Twins are insanely heavy, maybe twice the weight.

Twin reverbs are great, loud clean, but in these days of PA systems that work, sticking a mic on your Deluxe Reverb will get you there with a lower stage volume. I have my 22-watt Princeton Reverb (deluxe Reverb output tranny) and for practice and most gigs, it's loud enough on its own or with a 1x12 extension speaker. For bigger places, a 57 or a 609 to the PA and I'm good to go and the stage level's doable.

If it's a studio amp only, that's slightly different.

[redddog]

Yeah those Twins are insanely loud. I used to try to drive those in a bar type setting and people in the audience would start to loose their sense of balance. It was a real bummer. The Deluxe's are perfect.

I don't have either of my old Fender amps anymore. I sold my mint '63 blackface DR to a "friend" for $200 (and I even paid for shipping) back in 1990. I still want to kill myself for that one. Damn I loved that amp.

[tigeba]

I was agonizing over this same decision a couple weeks ago. I found a 65' Blackface Bassman (AA165) locally for a great price and I snagged it. So far I am very happy with it. You can probably get one a bit cheaper than a Twin or Deluxe reverb. Of course you don't get any reverb

[Manyrains]

I'm liking hearing people's takes on this. The only amps I've ever owned- bought a Peavy Classic in 1978. In 1995 I "took possession" of my Twin and never knew anything else. I sort of thought a Twin was basically "it". Played in a Beatles band- Casino straight into the amp. Not much else. Didn't realize how heavy it was- lugged it 4-5 nights a week, up into the back of my pickup- never thought anything of it. Now it's definitely staying at home more in favor of the DR just for the size factor.

I may be being too picky and, as someone pointed out, basically focusing on the difference between one and two speakers. Then again... The Twin is so nice for that full clean sound. Glad to hear the comment that 2&1/2-3 is good volume- that's where I play and thought that's maybe too low. Again, I'm haven't been playing with a band since I've had that and I know I'd probably push it up to 4 in a louder situation and take more advantage of the drive.

[dewey decibel]

Glad to hear the comment that 2&1/2-3 is good volume- that's where I play and thought that's maybe too low.

To me that's about where it starts getting good, and it's not the same on every amp, especially with vintage amps. Are you sure your Twin is in tip top shape?

Dont get me wrong, a lot of people LOVE the Twins. With all that power they really do have a commanding, stout clean sound. My issue is that when most people talk Fenders they automatically say Twin Reverb or that's what gets recommended, and I think a Twin's often not the best amp for the situation.

BTW, my main gigging amp is a '67 Pro Reverb. It's 2 6L6s (which is half the power of a Twin) but still has 2x12" speakers. I love it to death, and it will really fill out a room. But it's about the same size as a Twin, and even though it's lighter it's still getting to be a major PITA. I'm thinking of selling it and buying/building some kind of 30 watt 1x12" combo.

[Manyrains]

OK, here's a question for ya'll. What are your typical settings for a Twin. Back in my gigging days I never paid attention (I wasn't into amps/tone- these days I'm not out seeing what others do). I meaning between the master and channel volumes. I plug into the bright channel. Should one of them be on ten? What seems to sound best to me is with the master on about 4 and channel on 6-7. But I realize that doesn't allow for a definitive statement on what level you're playing at , as opposed the master-only DR.
I'm pretty sure my Twin is in good shape, I've had it in the hands of a couple of the best amp techs in Dallas in the last couple of years. A guy did a blackface mod- another guy that was recenetly looking at it commented that the mod was well done.

[kafka]

Just some impressions here Twins, Deluxes, and similar amps ...

I grew up on a silver-face non-mv Twin. Man, what a loud, clean and heavy amp. I think the thing I didn't like so much about it in the end was the attack. Very rounded, almost with a slightly delayed punch to it. It seems to be a characteristic of 6L6's, although there are some amps that deal with it better. For big clean chords, though, it's just huge sounding. I think it's mostly a function of the quad of 6L6's that never seem to be overdriven and the 2x12's. It's a very bouncy amp, and the reverb on a Twin is just a sound of it's own.

A blackface may be better on that point, or one modded to use EL34's. I've only played a couple of these over the years, though, so I don't have real strong impressions of them. I've got most of the parts for a twin. I've been thinking of making a single channel Twin copy with an EL34 mod.

A Deluxe is a great amp. I currently play a Jim Kelley FACS, which is like a hot-rodded Deluxe. Great smooth amp with denser lead sounds, but not as great for big chord rhythm parts as a Twins. I am sure that 6V6's sound muddier than 6L6's when clipped aggressively. (of course, I don't think I've ever gotten much clipping out of a Twin!) The 30 watt setting is tighter, more like an original Deluxe, and the 60 watt setting puts some looseness back in the sound.

[Manyrains]

Solved my problem. I work with kids in rehab and do a sort of school of rock thing. I happened to lug my Twin out of the house and brought it to the office for an extra amp on stage. In trying to economize space on the stage, I took the handle off the Twin and set the DR on top.

Now I have a Fender Stack.

[AK-47]

Originally Posted by redddog

Yeah those Twins are insanely loud. I used to try to drive those in a bar type setting and people in the audience would start to loose their sense of balance. It was a real bummer. The Deluxe's are perfect.

I don't have either of my old Fender amps anymore. I sold my mint '63 blackface DR to a "friend" for $200 (and I even paid for shipping) back in 1990. I still want to kill myself for that one. Damn I loved that amp.

You're mistake was trying to drive a Twin at all. They don't want to drive, they weren't meant for that. You ****ed up on that '63 DR. hahaha! Seriously tho, sorry about your loss...

[rockstar_josh]

Out of those two - Deluxe.... but I'll agree with the Super Reverb suggestions. It has a great thick, round tone that is a definitive blues tone.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by preben

I think that if you pull two power tubes out of the DR it almost certainly will be TOO quiet - even for most studio work

Doubt it. I've heard of a few people using that little zvex amp that's like 1/2 of a watt and they claim it's great for the studio. In fact when they're available I'm going to swoop up one of those Blackheart Little Ants(I think that's what it's called) for recording and it's rated at less than 1 watt.

[Mortal Engines]

I really like low wattage amps for recording. I have a little Champion 600 and a Blackheart (switchable 3 or 5 watt) and I like them both for different reasons. I had a Marshall half stack and still have a Crate vintage club 50 that is way too loud for most situations...I had drummers asking me to turn down with the Crate. I don't play with bands anymore really and I live in a condo. The lower wattage the better for me.

[eligit]

just played a twin BF RI yesterday in rehearsal.

it is simply too powerful.

and the "set the knob for at least 3" thing does not even work all the time....on this one if you set it to "1" the amp produced NO sound...and then at 4 it was already REALLY loud and yet not all that "full" sounding....worst of both worlds.

this is just not practical.

i am also simply not sold on SS rectifiers. even on a lovely clean tone (with no obvious audible overdrive) just a TOUCH of "sag" is desirable....at least to me. just a touch.....or crank a smaller amp to 50% for more sag which can also be awesome.


another thing i noticed is that since distortion sounds are BY NATURE compressed if you switch from a twin without distortion pedal (very little compression) for your clean to a distortion pedal into the twin for overdrive the compression characteristics will be so radically different as to cause mixing issues for the live engineer. to my ear at least you need a clean amp that will MELD with an overdrive pedal.....just a little bit. just a barely perceptible TOUCH of compression and "juice" in the clean amp will combine with your OD pedal to give you a wonderful 3-D and textured overdrive tone...whereas if you plug an overdrive or distortion into a twin (running at 4-5 or less) it is NOT an advantageous situation. the amp does not meld with the pedal at that level and the resultant tone is lacking mojo and in the worst cases can simply be harsh and nasty. LPs tend to fair better than singe coil guitars because they tend toward "mud" and that can gel ok with a twin.

for live work another problem is that to get any real "juice" at ALL out of a twin it must be so loud that it will drown out the drums.....so as a result the sound guy will have to crank the heck out of everything else on the monitors (assuming you are not playing a gigantic venue and the band members are pretty close to one another)....and the overall mix for the audience AND for the rest of the band will suffer.....not to mention your hearing. i think the twin with it's piercing highs, fast transients, and massive head room will kill your hearing as fast or faster than any other amp.

another tip if you feel you are lacking enough loud clean on the stage is to put your amp UP on a couple chairs and stay near it. even a smaller amp (half the power of a twin or less) lifted 3 or so feet off the stage will give you nice chime without being loud enough to kill people when you hit a loud clean chord high on the neck with the bridge pick up. if you are STILL wanting more volume you can always consider a 2X12 extension cab for your lower powered amp. lots of options....all of them more practical than a twin....which, to restate an earlier point is HEAVY as a MF....so you end up killing your back for 40 extra watts you don't even use at the gig.

that is my amp rant for the day.....

[migsoto]

+1 on the DR, The twin is really great and bla blah, but it's too darn heavy!!! also it's like other posters said, too freaking load to be practical in most cases. I had used the twin several times at gigs and was asked to turn down the volume way down to 1-1/2, guess I got a hot one. At such low levels, my tone was messed to the point my tube screamer couldn't do any justice to my rig, and the compressor.. well gave me a little of versatility back but by any means the ideal, so I figured I was just dragging 80+pounds of a monster amp with even less benefits added to the fact I'm kinda short and skinny.

I play Rithym guitar mostly as I'm not the lead guitarrist of my band, (I'm one of the vocalist ) So the deluxe fits me perfectly, that sweet overdriven clean, enhanced when I need it by the Electro Harmonix Black Finguer Compressor (best stomp guitar comp out there IMO), and when I really need that heavy full distorsion, the Screamer is just perfect. Furthermore, We always mic the amps (the other guitarist uses a twin) as all the band uses in ears for monitoring.So the engenieer always feeds me the right amount of guitar level I need.

I also run a studio, my recording room is kinda small although really well treated, for clean sounds the twin was ok, but I must admit that DR was way better and more versatile for that particular use. So for me DR is a win win for guys in the same situation.

Mig

[toddtommorrow]

I had Hal from Guitronics install a master volume. He put the xtra pot on the back. It's a million times better than than all those crappy master volumes I've heard! The gain is AMAZING! I got some 40 year old tubes, rca. I took out the 12ax7 that powers channel 1. I found an awesome military solid State rectifier. I put a classic jenson speaker in it. I put a 12ax7 in the slot that powers the verb for channel 2. I also found, for the most important slot (the 2nd channel) a 7025. If I could find more than 1 I would them instead of 12ax7s. Use your best tubes for your phase inverter, channel 2 and the reverb. Kurt p.s. The caps are holding up fine.