Tube distortion pedal + SS amp<<<<<VS>>>> Tube distortion pedal + Tube amp

[Chrizcol]

Its wrong.. and I kinda feel dirty asking but;

If lets say I had two amps in front of me... a Solid state and a Tube..

If I added a tube distortion pedal to the front of both.. With identical clean settings on both... would I get different order harmonics from them?
Or both the same sound?

Reason is.. i'm thinking about selling my fender ultimate chorus solid state cause its distortion sucks... its got a lovely clean sound however..
Could I just get a decent pedal to get the 'Good' distortion sound?

Or has it gotta be a tube amp?.. regardless of what you put in front of it?

[Chrizcol]

and I realise it shows how little I know about gain staging and what distortion is blah blah... been playing for 14 years... I'm a musician not a scientist. :P

[BLUElightCory]

The end result of using a tube amp vs. a solid state amp is going to have different harmonic content because of the POWER tubes in the tube amp and their contribution to the sound of the amp. This effect will become even more pronounced as the tube amp is turned up and working harder.

This is a large part of the reason that most (but not all) guitarists prefer the sound of an all-tube amp (as opposed to an amp with a tube preamp and solid state power amp or a fully solid state rig). It is worth noting that there are a few very nice solid state amps out there; the first one that comes to my mind is the Roland JC-120, among others.

If your style of playing favors distorted tones, I would sell the Fender and get something designed more for your style of music, however if distortion doesn't play as big of a role in your style you'd probably be okay getting a decent overdrive pedal (although my personal preference would be to upgrade to a nice tube amp either way).

Hope this helps,
Cory

[dewey decibel]

It's not just the tubes, but how their used in the circuit. Like Cory said, when it comes to even or odd order harmonics a lot of that is in the power section. The point is you can have two different tubes amp in front of you and get very different results.

Anyway, most tube OD pedals have been disapointing to me (and most other players), especially the mass produced ones you'd find at Guitar Center. There's a bunch of reasons for this, and if you think about it it's the same as comparing cheap tube mic pres with high end ones. On the cheap ones the tube(s) are often run at lower plate voltages.

A good distortion sound is subjective. What tones are you looking for- name some players/records and we'll try and help.

[Energie]

I used tube amps, then switched to a good clean solid state amp with tube distortion pedals in front, and well, now I am back to tube amps.

The solid state amp sounded fine at low levels, but crank it up, and it got really harsh and not pretty, where tube amps will probally do just the opposite. I will not get another SS amp, if I can help it.

[Chrizcol]

Thanks guys that helps loads.

The only concern was that i wouldn't be able to get that super clean shimmery solid-state sound on a tube amp.

Yeah my SS ultimate chorus is a bit JC-120. I do love the sound of a JC-120.. think it'll be my 2nd amp to get later... but for now... distorted tones are what I need.

The tube pedal I have is a Radial ToneBone Trimode. Worked lovely with a Vox ac30cc2 in the shop.... sounded like ass with my fender. Harsh is the perfect word. buzzy.. teethy.. Less of a growl and more of a ggzzzzzz sound.
So its def the amp.

Thanks very much my guitar gear gods. :p

Now what to get??? cue hours of research.

[Chrizcol]

Ok After some more research on the topic it's starting to make sense.

So You could actually get some pleasant sounding even order harmonics out of a Solid state pre amp into a power amp? hybrid?


Even order harmonics.. = octaves! Odd order are the other overtones... 5ths... maj 3rds.. 9ths. Hence they sound clashy..... wow.. makes sense... add to that if you play more than one note it adds all sorts of other harmonics to the signal.. creating a mess of dissonance... Yuck.

[Even single notes played over non distorted minor chords?]


These harmonics exist in clean.. or even acoustic sounds... but are more PRONOUNCED when distortion is present.. correct? Because of the clipping of the waves. Like they are given more 'light' to be seen when the fundamental is less prominant. And because of the difference in clipping between solid state and tube.. different harmonics are boosted?


Or am I wrong?

[Chrizcol]

Or solid state distortion sounds Higher order harmonics.. which are fairly close together hence clashy.
lower orders are spread apart and contain mostly octaves and 5ths.

[BLUElightCory]

Tube power amps tend to not have the higher amount of odd order harmonic content that solid state amps have; tubes tend to have more even-order harmonic content (which we generally find more pleasant to the ear).

I would not worry so much about the technical aspect of things though; just get out there with your guitar and start checking out as many amps as you can before you make a decision. You can research amps for the rest of your life but you won't really know if you've found the right amp until you play though it and fall in love.

Best of luck!

[malaclypse]

FWIW, i saw the guitar player from Yellowman(dancehall reggae pioneer), and he had a JC120 and one of those radial tonebones(for leads). i gotta say, he got a really sweet sound out of that rig. granted, he never played any distored power chords or the like...he just kicked in the radial for solos and it sounded great in that application. OTOH, i've also heard a JC120 that was taken waaaay overboard(not the same guy), and it sounded like ass.
me, i stick to tube amps, but then again i'm never going for that super clean SS sound. another option would be to find one of those old Music Man amps from the 70's with a solid state preamp section, and tube power section. i have one called a RD-190(i think) with a 15" speaker, and a 4-6L6 power section that sounds pretty cool. actually, i currently use it only for it's speaker with my bedrock 600 series head.

[Energie]

That is what I had, a JC-120, and a tonebone, with other pedals like Damage control Womanizer and demonizer. I think the JC-120 is a fine amp for SS, and I loved the stereo fx return, sounded very full next to the amp. My beef with it was when it got a little louder, it was a bit harsh, and the eq I could'nlt get to work for me. So i ended up selling it for a another tube amp, in the end, they just usualy sound more pleasant.

[Chrizcol]

Yeah I love the jc-120 for its clean sound.... chorus incredible. .. love the look and feel etc. But yeah... def not versatile and cannot use it with distortion.
It'll def be my 2nd amp purchase in a few months though.

I'm convincing myself to save more and get a mesa boogie f-50. Think it'll get me more mileage than a little laney or blues jnr.
Plus I won a competition recently which has got me $600 worth of coupons at my music shop.

[Energie]

I have the Mesa Boogie F-50 also, somedays I like it, some I don't. I swapped out the speaker for a vin 30, way more clarity and less muck, now the only thing is the crazy EQ. Its just strange, a super bright amp. Email me if you want and I can tell you more about my opinion on the f-50,

[Chrizcol]

Wow.. you're my tone twin. What gtr?

I'm off to the shop to bug the salesmen once more... will try the f-50.

I've got a prs custom24 i've been insulting my running through a podxt for almost 3 years!...finally heard the errors of my ways when I got into recording and attempted to mix it in tracks.
Dumbs everything else down.

[Energie]

Too funy

I also have a PRS but its a CE 24. Here is my take on the F-50. It has a really nice lead sound, really smooth sounding, it is a little muddy on chords if not in contour mode at times, I have to use the guitar bright channell to have good note definition. overall its a pretty nice and LOUD amp (I have the combo) very simple controls. What I don't like about it is the eq. They have it a little different. The treble doesn't really effect the treble too much, or not nearly like any other amp I have used. all the way down, it still sounds like the treble is up, only you are now not feeding the mids and bass as much, as the treble level effects what the other eq does. so, they recommend having the treble up at noon, for best note definitin and feed to the other eq. Mids, they recommend it all the way down to start, but you can bring it up for more note definition, it doesn't really effect the mids way too much. Bass, now this is the part I really don't like, turn up the bass past noon, and the distortion gets really woofy.

I swapped out speakers and tubes, only to find my tube of choice were a bit to bright in this amp, so I went back to the stock mesa's normally ,and that sounded better. To me, it doensn't have too much beefy bottom that I like, part of that is the eq placement I believe. Plus I am usingi a 4x12 lately so you can imagine I like to feel it.

I like it mostly, it has a contour switch taht really helps get a thicker and beefier distortion, and the normal drive is a bit smoother, but lacks note definition a little when doing chords and single notes, much like most fenders to me, though this sounds nothing like a fender.

After living and feeling this amp out, I wished I woudl of put G12H30 speaker in there rather then the vin 30, the vin 3o was a big improvment over the stock speaker, just that it doesn't have as much low end as the latter.

ok dude, there is my novel on my F-50. Go check it out, perhaps you may have a completely different experience with it. Though keep in mind its a discontinued model, and its always a good idea to look around a bit before making your next big amp purchase, depending on what your tone goal is, speaking of which, what kind of sound are you striving for??? If its Santana's lead tone , this amp may be just it for you

[dewey decibel]

I agree with Corey- just try as much stuff as you can and don't woory about tubes, solid state, odd order harmonics, etc.

Originally Posted by Energie

Too funy

I also have a PRS but its a CE 24. Here is my take on the F-50. It has a really nice lead sound, really smooth sounding, it is a little muddy on chords if not in contour mode at times, I have to use the guitar bright channell to have good note definition. overall its a pretty nice and LOUD amp (I have the combo) very simple controls. What I don't like about it is the eq. They have it a little different. The treble doesn't really effect the treble too much, or not nearly like any other amp I have used. all the way down, it still sounds like the treble is up, only you are now not feeding the mids and bass as much, as the treble level effects what the other eq does. so, they recommend having the treble up at noon, for best note definitin and feed to the other eq. Mids, they recommend it all the way down to start, but you can bring it up for more note definition, it doesn't really effect the mids way too much. Bass, now this is the part I really don't like, turn up the bass past noon, and the distortion gets really woofy....

Hmmmm, that's interesting. Does adjusting the bass change how the treble reacts?

[Energie]

Originally Posted by dewey decibel

I agree with Corey- just try as much stuff as you can and don't woory about tubes, solid state, odd order harmonics, etc.





Hmmmm, that's interesting. Does adjusting the bass change how the treble reacts?

No, it does'nt. The eq seems to work more normal in the clean channell settings, but for the drive, it does'nt. I can pass along the manual that explains how they have it working. They don't reccomend the bass going much past 12 on the drive channell as they say it gets woofy, which is the exact case. It seems as if the bass is before the drive. The treble feeds the rest of the eq, so the treble at noon is the optimal setting per their instructions. though the treble all the way down, it still is bright. really strange, and I truly wish worked differently as that is really the only complaint i have with it, though its a major one for me.