very torn on guitar amp (Vox/Fender/?)

[manthe]

Recently I bought a Fender Super-Sonic. I really liked it. It had a lot of the Fender 'twang' and roundness that I love. Instant gratification, at 1st. After 2 days, the buzz wore off, but jumped into the amp I developed a really bad buzz on the reverb tube and bad hiss on the EQ gain knobs. I brought it back to the store.

I've always been a Fender amp guy. But, I've always heard people raving about VOX. I played around with the AC30CC2 and liked it quite a bit. I did not get that instant gratification that I usually do with Fender (Twins/Twin Reverbs/Bassman/Super-Sonic), but it definitely had a very nice tone and was relatively flexible. I could tell that once I learned it, I could get it to sing for me.

So, I traded out the Fender for the VOX. At the time, I did not have the extra money for the Celestion speakers ($600 extra seems awfully high). But, they certainly did sound noticeably smoother and more responsive than the the stock GSH12-30s. I probable will have the extra money to trade up this week, but I don't know if it is worth it!?!

I've only had time to tweak the knobs for about 30 or 45 minutes so far. I also have not finished the manual. I have noticed that, so far, I have not been able to get as clean of a 'clean' tone as the Fenders. The VOX always seems to have a little 'growl' to it. I've also not been able to get it to sound right while quiet, yet. So far I've had to push it a bit to get it to sound purty.

Here are my questions:

1. Is it really worth the extra $600 for the Celestion speakers? This is a recording amp only. No live use. So, my fear is that the answer is yes. Has anyone else switched up and noticed a big difference in their recordings?

2. Will I be able to get a nice, clean (shimmery) tone from this amp. once I learn it better?

3. If recording at lower volumes, is it better to set the output bias to 82 Warm?


I appreciate any info/advice/suggestions/etc! Thanks!

(Thankfully I have a very good relationship with the people who sell me my gear and a liberal return policy!)

[softwareguy]

I would say just get one Celestion Blue, and mic that speaker when you are recording. If you want to buy a second one later, you can, but this way you can get "the sound" that you want to lay down on tape.

[manthe]

Excellent idea! I hadn't thought of that. In fact, I could buy 2 of them for $100 (or more) LESS than the cost of trading up the amp and then I would have both sets of speakers!

Originally Posted by softwareguy

I would say just get one Celestion Blue, and mic that speaker when you are recording. If you want to buy a second one later, you can, but this way you can get "the sound" that you want to lay down on tape.

[softwareguy]

Excellent idea! I hadn't thought of that. In fact, I could buy 2 of them for $100 (or more) LESS than the cost of trading up the amp and then I would have both sets of speakers!

Yeah, especially if you look for them used. I've had good luck picking up the odd used one on Ebay.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by softwareguy

Yeah, especially if you look for them used. I've had good luck picking up the odd used one on Ebay.

Good idea. I wonder if it would make more sense to buy 1 Celestion Blue, for recording (as you suggested) and spens the other money on upgrading the tubes?

I know very little about the tubes used on these amps. Are the stock tubes any good? Would an upgrade make a noticeable difference (improvement)?

Thanks again!

[rystro]

I have a VOX AC 15... and didn't really know anything about tubes, still don't totally... but I took it into a vintage repair shop and the guy said that my tubes were old and needed to be replaced....

....after replacing the tubes my amp sounded 100 times better then it was!

Later on I really did some research on replacing tubes and I guess there are a few you can choose from depending on what you are going for...

But if you haven't replaced the tubes in quite awhile you might want to... it did wonders for mine.

My Vox was from 1980's.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by manthe

Excellent idea! I hadn't thought of that. In fact, I could buy 2 of them for $100 (or more) LESS than the cost of trading up the amp and then I would have both sets of speakers!

Vox sure does want a lot for those Celestions. I'd forget about it for now, and use an extension cabinet when you want to swap out speakers. It's always good to have a few lying around.

[dreamsongs]

I just went thru this about 3 months ago ...

I spent some sick time listening to a lot of amps including all Fenders, Mesas, Soldanos, Marshalls and many boutique amps. Mostly, mass produced amps that were in the 1.2k to 1.5k range for studio only recording. The boutique amps were out of my range and to me, overpriced.

I already own a black face Fender Twin so I was partial to that sound, especially the clean tone. I first brought home a Fender Bassman '59 re-issue. It sounded pretty nice but too close in sound to my Twin. I took it back and tried the Vox AC-30. I couldn't get a clean enough tone and even the closest clean tone was too dark. It just didn't sound right to me. Some people call it vintage sounding but to me it souded muffled and lacked presence.

I returned the Vox and I tried a few more but in the end I put up $300 more than I wanted to spend and came home with a Mesa "Lonestar Special". I love it and it has a killer clean yet warm tone. It has a nice natural grunge but lacks heavy distortion but that's not why I got it anyway, I have plenty of pedals for that. It also has an FX loop which I connect to my Eventide which works great. One great thing is the fact that the tone controls really do something in this amp, it shapes the tone for whatever you like and the switcheable amp output is a nice touch as well. You can go 5/15/30 for different saturation levels.

I don't know what your budget is or your taste but definitely check out the Lonestar. It sounds beautiful and records better yet. I paid around 1.8k for mine, no discounts on this one.

If you do, let me know what you think...you won't be disappointed.

[Jonboy79]

I run my ac30cc head thru a vintage 30 loaded marshall 4x12 and of all the cabs and speaker combos I've tried it sounds the best thru this. At first I had trouble with the clean when I'd have the amp cranked, it was always a bit broken up sounding and I didn't like it. After messing with the switches on the back and pulling the master volume back I got the U2 clean sound I had been looking for, vintage yet bright and chimey. It took me some time to really dial in the amp, and it was frustrating sometimes but after spending time with it I'm in love. I will say that if you're using the amp live you're going to have trouble getting the clean loud without breaking up, but in a studio setting it's fan-freakin-tastic.

[david_fowler]

I would agree with that .The VOX isn't going to give you a good loud clean tone. No matter what speakers you're driving.

[underworld]

Dr. Z Maz Jr.

I played one of these a few weeks back. Freaking awesome sounding amp. Especially nice sounding for studio work (it's 18 watts). Has a nice big clean sound and a really cool overdrive as well. Also, one of the best reverbs I've ever heard in a combo. If i had the money to spend, this would be the amp ... the used one was going for around $1200 or $1300 - new I think they are closer to $1600. pretty close to your price range and well worth the $$$.

that amp outdid the Vox AC15 (blue alnico), the Supersonic, the Randall MTS, and my Ampeg Reverberocket 2 (1966) hands down no questions asked.

[manthe]

You sound very similar to me both in what you went through and in taste. I 'played' with the VOX for a few more hours tonight. I got some decent tones, but nothing that blew me away. I think I might end up going back to Fender (or perhaps the Mesa or Dr Z).

I think it comes down to taste and personal preference, obviously. As far as the VOX goes, I really love the trem. and the extra controls on the reverb. I also like some of the tones i was able to dial up. I DON'T like the EQ and I'm not super crazy about the way any of the overdriven tones sound. A decent stomp box or 2 can take care of that.

I'm still very torn. I suppose I could keep it, upgrade the speakers and tubes and see how it sounds then. But, that seems like a lot of money and effort. Some of the other recommended amps sound intriguing, but I'd need a chance to try them out. I'll have to do some research to try to find them locally.

This sucks! I just want an amp I am 100% happy with. It has to:

1. Sound a lot like a Fender
2. be all tube driven
3. have very nice spring reverb
4. excellent 3-band EQ, or REALLY excellent 2-band
5. Great sounding trem.
6. Great clean, semi-driven and fuzz tones
7. Sound good at moderately low volumes for recording purposes

The Super-Sonic is close. No trem and not much in the way of low-volume capability, but the rest is there....mostly. I guess I'll have to really make and effort to check out these othr amps!

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

I just went thru this about 3 months ago ...

I spent some sick time listening to a lot of amps including all Fenders, Mesas, Soldanos, Marshalls and many boutique amps. Mostly, mass produced amps that were in the 1.2k to 1.5k range for studio only recording. The boutique amps were out of my range and to me, overpriced.

I already own a black face Fender Twin so I was partial to that sound, especially the clean tone. I first brought home a Fender Bassman '59 re-issue. It sounded pretty nice but too close in sound to my Twin. I took it back and tried the Vox AC-30. I couldn't get a clean enough tone and even the closest clean tone was too dark. It just didn't sound right to me. Some people call it vintage sounding but to me it souded muffled and lacked presence.

I returned the Vox and I tried a few more but in the end I put up $300 more than I wanted to spend and came home with a Mesa "Lonestar Special". I love it and it has a killer clean yet warm tone. It has a nice natural grunge but lacks heavy distortion but that's not why I got it anyway, I have plenty of pedals for that. It also has an FX loop which I connect to my Eventide which works great. One great thing is the fact that the tone controls really do something in this amp, it shapes the tone for whatever you like and the switcheable amp output is a nice touch as well. You can go 5/15/30 for different saturation levels.

I don't know what your budget is or your taste but definitely check out the Lonestar. It sounds beautiful and records better yet. I paid around 1.8k for mine, no discounts on this one.

If you do, let me know what you think...you won't be disappointed.

[chrisgraff]

No clean sound in an AC30??? Maybe you got one with bad tubes. To me, a critical part of that VOX sound is those 15w celestions. Worth the extra $600 IMHO.

However, IF you need an amp to sound "alot like a Fender", don't get a VOX. Different beast altogether.

Plugging straight in to an AC30 can be boring, I'll admit. At the very least, hit it with a cranked dynacomp, microamp, or other clean boost. You'll also need to turn it up at least halfway.

Jumping two of the channels can be fun as well.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by manthe

You sound very similar to me both in what you went through and in taste. I 'played' with the VOX for a few more hours tonight. I got some decent tones, but nothing that blew me away. I think I might end up going back to Fender (or perhaps the Mesa or Dr Z).

I think it comes down to taste and personal preference, obviously. As far as the VOX goes, I really love the trem. and the extra controls on the reverb. I also like some of the tones i was able to dial up. I DON'T like the EQ and I'm not super crazy about the way any of the overdriven tones sound. A decent stomp box or 2 can take care of that.

I'm still very torn. I suppose I could keep it, upgrade the speakers and tubes and see how it sounds then. But, that seems like a lot of money and effort. Some of the other recommended amps sound intriguing, but I'd need a chance to try them out. I'll have to do some research to try to find them locally.

This sucks! I just want an amp I am 100% happy with. It has to:

1. Sound a lot like a Fender
2. be all tube driven
3. have very nice spring reverb
4. excellent 3-band EQ, or REALLY excellent 2-band
5. Great sounding trem.
6. Great clean, semi-driven and fuzz tones
7. Sound good at moderately low volumes for recording purposes

The Super-Sonic is close. No trem and not much in the way of low-volume capability, but the rest is there....mostly. I guess I'll have to really make and effort to check out these othr amps!

The reality is that when it comes to guitar amps there are no rules and it comes down to taste. For me, when I hear it I know it...but it took me a while to be satisfied.

You're gonna have to try as many amps as you possibly can and decide. Make sure you take them home and record a few tracks, that will be the clincher.

And as I said, the AC30 didn't blow me away by a long shot, then again I never tried the one with the Celestions which would've made the difference. But after adding the extra $$ you get into a different price range and more appealing choices...

I hate buying an amp with the idea to have to change the tubes or have it modded in any way. Not that I wouldn't consider it later on but it has to sound good out of the box.

Let us know what you come up with and good luck...

[gfriend]

ok...there are a number of things kinda fuzzy here so maybe I can add some thoughts to help.

the VOX amps really do have a somewhat specific tone which really can be attributed to the use of the EL34 or EL84 tubes. FENDER on the other hand really gets more of it's cherished tones from the use of 6L6/6v6 power tubes. There really is a notable difference here...

The DR Z amp (Maz18) is really really great and very 3-dimensional, much like a VOX or Matchless to me. I may be mistaken but I always think of this as the 'english/vox' tone. Somehow though the Maz really seems less harsh and very responsive. Vox trem is totally different as well from Fender trem...

Vox=helicopter chop
Fender=swampy throb

The more 'american' Fender sound exists in the VICTORIA amps...they really make the bees-knees of tweed repros and are a fine company. By reading your wants I would highly recommend checking their Victorilux and Victoriette models. Both include way cool reverb and trem and use the aformentioned el34 tubes. Although this might imply a Vox kinda deal...no way, they have that throbbing Fender trem and wicked surfy reverb.

One more thing here, I believe you can order both the Victoria's and the DR Z amps with 6l6 or 6v6 tubes as well if you 'have to have it'.

good luck!

George

[Meriphew]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

I took it back and tried the Vox AC-30. I couldn't get a clean enough tone and even the closest clean tone was too dark.

I've never heard an AC30 described as dark before. I wonder if there was a problem with the one you had?

[dreamsongs]

I don't know who knows...

But let me re-phrase that, maybe "not clean enough" or "colored" might be more accurate. It just seemed that it wasn't as sparkly clean as I would've liked. I don't like my guitar amps to color the sound much as I have plenty of gear that can do that.

I guess I just didn't like the tone that much. Maybe the tubes sucked. I had to work way too hard with it to come up with something close to what I was looking for. With the Lonestar, I just plugged it in and it brought an instant smile to my face.

From experience, when something grabs me instantly, I know I will keep that piece of gear for many years to come. If it doesn't, I usually end up not using it that much or I end up selling it...

But as always, this is just me and YMMGV...

[peeder]

I have the AC30CCH with the 2x12 Wharfedale cab...I shoulda sprung for Alnicos perhaps but I'll survive...and the Fender DRRI.

I consider them complimentary...the Vox's strength is in the beautiful, articulate clean mids, and the Fender has a full low end plus the classic glassy top (on the Vibrato channel). The Fender's Normal channel (no reverb) is closer to a Vox but is still Fender. My amps are all still stock though I did get the JJ tubes for the Fender from Eurotubes.

I think you want the Fender DRRI from your description...it's a bit scooped, sounds gorgeous clean, and I use a THD Hotplate (8ohm) to get the great breakup on it at low volumes.

However, I like pedals on NEITHER of these amps! For pedals, I use a Traynor YCV40WR (the Wine Red Custom Valve 40) which has an open-back Celestion Vintage 30 and I've added the matching closed-back extension with another Vintage 30. This amp doesn't have the perfect cleans of either the Vox or the Fender but it has a usable footswitchable drive channel and most importantly makes using pedals a joy.

The AC30 Custom Classic (the current edition of the AC30) has several settings on the back for biasing etc. You really need to try all of these settings before making a judgment on the amp. Furthermore, the amp behaves in all sorts of unpredictable manners. Even if you're not going through both channels, the other channel's controls will alter the tone. The knobs are sometimes the opposite of what you'd expect them to do. The amp has a lot of character and requires mastery.

I fell in and out of love with each of my amps (I also have a pair of Epi Valve Jr's I love to run in stereo) until I learned to "sing through them" as I like to say and I found the place for each of them. Some amps out there might provide instant gratification but the appeal may wear off quickly. This is something that is as important, and perhaps more difficult, than selecting an instrument.

[manthe]

Fantastic info...THANKS!

I went to 2 places yesterday and played, probably 25 different amps. From VOX to Fender, DR. Z, Marshall, Mesa....even Peavy.

I wish there was a place that carried tons of amps. Not just the 'top brands'. I'd love to be able to play some of the more esoteric or less widely distributed jewels out there. It is very tough for me to, say, buy a VICTORIA amp if I can't put my hands on one 1st. On their list of distributors, there is not a single one in the entire state of FL, not to mention Central FL.

At any rate, the VOX is actually growing on me. I did like the Dr. Z quite a bit, but the 1 that was available was a bit older and did not have anything but a volume, low and high knob, No reverb, separate gain for OD or anything. It sounded pretty good, but for the money and lack of flexibility, I did not feel inclined to buy it.

The more I talk to other people, the more I'm convinced that the VOX is the way to go. It came down to listing songs and bands that I have always liked. It was brought to my attention that there may be a big difference between what I like 'in front of the glass' and what I like from 'behind the glass'. In other words, as a guitar *player*, I love the Fender sound. But, as a fan/listener and perhaps as an engineer, I really like the VOX sound.

This amp will be in my studio, which is 50/50 at this point. Most of the customers I've had in do not bring their own amps. It is a small studio. I do mostly demos and mixing. People that are looking for a 'finished' mix typically bring their own amps/stomp boxes/etc.

Originally Posted by gfriend

ok...there are a number of things kinda fuzzy here so maybe I can add some thoughts to help.

the VOX amps really do have a somewhat specific tone which really can be attributed to the use of the EL34 or EL84 tubes. FENDER on the other hand really gets more of it's cherished tones from the use of 6L6/6v6 power tubes. There really is a notable difference here...

The DR Z amp (Maz18) is really really great and very 3-dimensional, much like a VOX or Matchless to me. I may be mistaken but I always think of this as the 'english/vox' tone. Somehow though the Maz really seems less harsh and very responsive. Vox trem is totally different as well from Fender trem...

Vox=helicopter chop
Fender=swampy throb

The more 'american' Fender sound exists in the VICTORIA amps...they really make the bees-knees of tweed repros and are a fine company. By reading your wants I would highly recommend checking their Victorilux and Victoriette models. Both include way cool reverb and trem and use the aformentioned el34 tubes. Although this might imply a Vox kinda deal...no way, they have that throbbing Fender trem and wicked surfy reverb.

One more thing here, I believe you can order both the Victoria's and the DR Z amps with 6l6 or 6v6 tubes as well if you 'have to have it'.

good luck!

George

[Meriphew]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

I don't know who knows...

But let me re-phrase that, maybe "not clean enough" or "colored" might be more accurate. It just seemed that it wasn't as sparkly clean as I would've liked. I don't like my guitar amps to color the sound much as I have plenty of gear that can do that.

Gotcha.

[bleudevel05]

caught this thread kind of late but I have owned several of the amps you have suggested and used though my Vox was not one of the newer CC models but a UK built model from 96' with greenbacks. recently I decided to look for a more versatile amp for recording as the Vox kind of has that one sound. Changing the tubes in the pre stage is not a bad idea but merely replacing them would not likely change the tonal character. Something like changing 12ax7's to 12au7's---it does make a noticeable difference. I've been told these changes are not necessarily good for the amp unless you rebias it though. This actually made me look into the THD univalve which has been very popular lately---It actually allows you to change from something like 4 watts to 12 watts(not sure on those numbers) depending on what tube you decide to put in--and the sell is that the amp automatically rebiases--it actually sounded really nice and is a better option imho than the Randall cartridge models. I ended up going w/ a Savage amp which I paid a little extra for but it really had amazing versatility--I could get some really nice smooth fender tones, some voxey tones, and even somewhere in the marshall ballpark--at a reasonable volume--it has a nice built in tremolo circuit that doesn't pop or change volumes and has Mojo speakers which are modeled after some of the older celestion models before they went chinese. If you have a little xtra dough and can find a dealer I'd look into any of the Savage models. My only complaint is they they are not as quiet as some of the bogner models I have played but still quiet enough to record with. They have less controls...but they controls they do have are magical(haha) and the support you get from the savage guys is unbeatable(lifetime warranty) Hope this helps

[peeder]

12AU7 is the opposite end of the spectrum from 12AX7...not sure I'd go that far.

Here's a chart of the various preamp tube types and levels. Note that the Vox is apparently a pain to retube (I haven't tried but it's clearly not as easy as the Fender!).

[indie]

All I know is, an AC-30 will NEVER sound the way it should (in the classic vox tone sense) without the Blue Speakers. Never. I don't believe your mileage will vary on that.

[chrisgraff]

Originally Posted by indie

All I know is, an AC-30 will NEVER sound the way it should (in the classic vox tone sense) without the Blue Speakers. Never. I don't believe your mileage will vary on that.

Well spoken, from a guy who knows about guitar tone.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by indie

All I know is, an AC-30 will NEVER sound the way it should (in the classic vox tone sense) without the Blue Speakers. Never. I don't believe your mileage will vary on that.

Great, now I'm going to obsess over it and eventually spend 400 to 600 more...THANKS!!

Perhaps you can answer this question;

I was reading the manual that came with the AC30 (imagine that!) and it mentions that although the clean channel does not have EQ, there is a 'certain EQ' that is often used to get a well known sound (I've SERIOUSLY paraphrased here). Could you, or anyone tell me what this 'certain EQ' is?

Thanks!

[6dyslexicelephnt]

I have the made in england VOX AC30 reissue with weber blue dogs- handmade copies of the vintage blues so I have a beast on my hands probably the closest you can get to a vintage AC30 which is what a guy I bought some tubes from said is the best amp he has ever heard. So anyway I have a very nice vox and I had to play one of the ac30cc and I didn't like it as much although it sorta sounds similar. My Vox is super noisy with my strat (warmoth hollow body with fralins) so that's annoying. There is a possibility that maybe something is not right with it but it still sounds very good. Here is my main point: there is no one single holy tone that once you get there you will be happy. There are nice guitars, amps and pedals that make cool sounds together - but to get your TONE you have to combine all two or three in the right way. I'm in a surfy band and I've been using the AC30 with a roland space echo with my warmoth strat which should be the greatest thing ever but there's no perfect general tone. You have to be specific. Over the weekend I played a deluxe reverb and it sounded way better than AC30 for the band that I'm in. A few years ago I threw a ton of money into my amp to get the best amp, but now it seems a different, cheaper amp would be better. The vox AC30 is beatlesy and british sounding with a bright and boxy sound. The fender amps have more of a bell tone. I would compare an open chord on a strat through them like this: the vox would sound like a crash cymbal and the fender would be more like a glockenspiel in the way they sparkle. The fender will always have a more straightforward great clean tone, while the vox always will have some midrangy character. Try to buy an amp for the music you will be playing or hope to be playing. Once you compare the type of sound, the price range, wattage/combo/reverb or not etc then you'll only have a couple choices. Just don't go out looking for a "good" amp, because you'll find that the most important thing about the sound is how it accentuates your playing style.

[barthowk]

If you are considering whether you should keep a VOX AC30, PLEASE take the time to read this.

I've had the AC30 CC2 for a few months. I purchased despite it others' warnings, thinking "it'll never happen to me." I've spent quite a bit of time with the amp and found tones in it that I really like. However, I've learned my lesson and am getting rid of it ASAP. The build quality of the amp is just absolutely terrible and VOX (KORG) can be equally terrible about fixing problems.

For example, I waited four (4) months for a reverb tank replacement from Korg. Also, I left it in the backseat of a car this weekend for a little less than an hour in 80 degree weather. During that time the gold bar on the front had begun melting and is now badly warped, and the grill cloth has began pulling away from at the top. To Korg's credit, they are fixing it under warranty. I'm still selling it, however, out fear of what will happen when the warranty period expires.

I do like the amp's sound. But, I played a Tophat Club Royale this weekend and purchased it. The AC30 CC2 is good, but its just not in the same league as the Tophat.

I know a dealer who will sell you (or