very torn on guitar amp (Vox/Fender/?)

[FFTT]

It's tough to find any really good amp, hand wired, point to point for under $2000.00

You're not alone out there chasing tone and build quality.

The original Vox amps sounded great as long as they held together, but roadworthiness was not their strong point.
The same with the original Marshalls.

There was a damn good reason touring bands had several back-ups on stage in the old days.

My suggestion is to keep shopping and keep saving until you can afford something better.

If you want that Vox tone in a much better amp, look at Vintone, Victoria, 65 Amps
The same thing goes for the 18 watt hand wired amps.

The Celestion Alnicos sound fine, but Weber and Tone Tubby will give you better speakers for your money and they'll handle more volume.

[rob S]

these new AC30CC's aren't like the old ones.
i'd pick the reissues from the 90's over these easy.
if you want big loud fender clean get yourself a fender twin
and stop the insanity.
vox is to fender like horses are to accordians.

[FFTT]

The new Vox amps use cheap knock off transformers which is just one small part
of the reason they don't get the tones of the originals.

Even the original vintage amps were highly inconsistent due to numerous changes
in production and company ownership.

I've learned a lot in my personal tone quest.

Good standard American pots cost about $3.00 each.
Sealed stainless military spec pots run about $30.00 each.

The caps, filters, tubes wiring, choice of tag board material all make a difference
in the build quality, quietness, roadworthiness and tone.

If you want those cool screaming leads for recording, go class A 5-12 watts through
one or two 8" or 10" speakers.

If you need a more versatile performance amp with headroom and
that Vox chime, go class AB with 30 watts and buy a cabinet with
Tone Tubbys and/or Webers.

The harsh reality is that a well made amp is going to run you $2200-$3000.00++

You won't find it at Guitar Center.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by FFTT

The new Vox amps use cheap knock off transformers which is just one small part
of the reason they don't get the tones of the originals.

Even the original vintage amps were highly inconsistent due to numerous changes
in production and company ownership.

I've learned a lot in my personal tone quest.

Good standard American pots cost about $3.00 each.
Sealed stainless military spec pots run about $30.00 each.

The caps, filters, tubes wiring, choice of tag board material all make a difference
in the build quality, quietness, roadworthiness and tone.

If you want those cool screaming leads for recording, go class A 5-12 watts through
one or two 8" or 10" speakers.

If you need a more versatile performance amp with headroom and
that Vox chime, go class AB with 30 watts and buy a cabinet with
Tone Tubbys and/or Webers.

The harsh reality is that a well made amp is going to run you $2200-$3000.00++

You won't find it at Guitar Center.

I'm afraid this is true...I had a guy here in Miami asking 4.5k for a Two Rock Amp(John Mayer), I almost had a heart attack...

[peeder]

OK so if I want to upgrade my standard Vox 2x12 cab (the new Wharfedale one) with Webers, for recording cleans, what are the right speakers to get exactly?

I imagine it's Blue Dogs, but there are Alnico and Ceramic varieties, and a whole bunch of different wattages, and then there's doping. I would think the Alnico Blue Dogs with no doping and 15 watts would be the best-sounding option...but maybe you know better? (Not as if I can sit and listen to the differences)

[manthe]

I was just in my studio playing my upgraded VOX AC30 with Celestions. My Les Paul Gibson was plugged up to my Fulltone OD, Ibanez Analog Delay and Small Stone Phaser. I was getting some very, VERY sweet tones. It inspired me to come up with a cool new riff and melody, which I just laid down with a 57 (Valley People Transamp pre) and an e609 (Trident pre). Sounded lovely!

Regardless of whether this AC30 sounds the same as an AC30 from 40 years ago, it still sounds very, very nice. At the end of the day, whether I spent 1600, 800 or 4500; bought it at Wal Mart, Guitar Center or from some esoteric, 'vintage specialty shop', doesn't the tone and being happy with it really matter most? I mean, 'Whole 'lotta Love' has already been done. That was a great tone. But I don't need to replicate it exactly.

There was a Dr. Z, Z28 at Guitar Center. Does that mean that now that amp sucks?

I get that the build quality might be sub-par, at least compared to older units. But, this amp will sit on an amp stand, in a studio for the entire time I own it. So, I'm not too worried about road-worthiness. With its intended use, longevity also shouldn't be a problem...unless there are workmanship issues.

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass or anything. I certainly appreciate the information and the technical expertise. I just think sometimes we don't see the forest for the trees.

PS - The VOX has grown on me. Especially now that I have the Celestions. I am definitely keeping it. I will likely pick up a Twin or Twin Reverb in the coming months. Then I'll start researching Marshalls!

Originally Posted by FFTT

The new Vox amps use cheap knock off transformers which is just one small part
of the reason they don't get the tones of the originals.

Even the original vintage amps were highly inconsistent due to numerous changes
in production and company ownership.

I've learned a lot in my personal tone quest.

Good standard American pots cost about $3.00 each.
Sealed stainless military spec pots run about $30.00 each.

The caps, filters, tubes wiring, choice of tag board material all make a difference
in the build quality, quietness, roadworthiness and tone.

If you want those cool screaming leads for recording, go class A 5-12 watts through
one or two 8" or 10" speakers.

If you need a more versatile performance amp with headroom and
that Vox chime, go class AB with 30 watts and buy a cabinet with
Tone Tubbys and/or Webers.

The harsh reality is that a well made amp is going to run you $2200-$3000.00++

You won't find it at Guitar Center.

[FFTT]

The best thing about upgrading to the Celestion Blues is that now you have a cabinet
that should sound great with just about any amp.

My only concern with the Celestion Blues is their power handling capabilities, but
that may not be an issue so much for studio use with lower wattage amplifiers.

They have a certain flavor and a very likeable one, so I think they were worth
the investment.

Most of all, you're happy with the way they improved your sound.

[rwhitney]

With Alnicos, I think the Vox AC30cc2(x) sounds and records great.

I, too, have decided to brave the uncertainties of the modern "re-issue" amp, the Marshall 1974x. I love the sound, look, and feel of it. I'll replace the tranny if it fries. Tomorrow I plan to buy a 2x12 extension cab with Alnicos.

Thanks for this great thread!

[FFTT]

The Celestions are going to break up earlier than a Tone Tubby or Weber, so if you
want extended clean headroom keep that in mind.

One of either mixed with one Celestion Blue can give you a very pleasant blend of tone.

This would be especially helpful for things like those cleaner 12 string jangle chords with
your Rickenbacker for example.

[manthe]

I assume that would be on the high end, then? Would the performance in the lower registers be the same? I guess what I'm getting at is, would it be wise to eventually buy/build a cabinet with Tone Tubby or Webers, or would you lose something by not g\having the Celestion soun in the mix?

Thanks!

Originally Posted by FFTT

The Celestions are going to break up earlier than a Tone Tubby or Weber, so if you
want extended clean headroom keep that in mind.

One of either mixed with one Celestion Blue can give you a very pleasant blend of tone.

This would be especially helpful for things like those cleaner 12 string jangle chords with
your Rickenbacker for example.

[FFTT]

Well you could just swap out speakers, but that would be a hassle.

I would consider several configurations as budget permits.

You have a good 2X12 now so why not add to your sonic arsenal.

A 2X10 cabinet with one TT Alnico one Weber Ceramic ( or Jensen )

You can then run both or just one 10" depending on what amp you're running.

That's going to give you more of a lead cabinet with your 2X12
handling more cleans and rhythm chords.
The 10's are also going to give you better highs and less tone cry.

The word on the TT's is that they need a good 20 hours break in time before
they loosen up, but after that, them's schweet as can be.

I haven't heard one yet, but the specs on the Weber Thames ( Fane clone)
really interest me for power handling and extended clean range.

In general, mixing two speakers that cover each other's weakness will give you
a great full range cabinet.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by FFTT

In general, mixing two speakers that cover each other's weakness will give you a great full range cabinet.

But I assume then you're going to be distance miking?

At this point I'm considering an Avatar 1x12 Celestion Alnico Blue cab as the best way out of this...I don't think I'll need more than the 15 watts (I won't turn up and blow it...). Sticking 1x12 for recording seems the best option.

[FFTT]

Nothing at all wrong with a single 12" or 10" for that matter.

It's just with a 2X cabinet you can either mic one or both speakers giving you
more versatility.

[GPl]

Originally Posted by FFTT

It's tough to find any really good amp, hand wired, point to point for under $2000.00

You're not alone out there chasing tone and build quality.

The original Vox amps sounded great as long as they held together, but roadworthiness was not their strong point.
The same with the original Marshalls.

There was a damn good reason touring bands had several back-ups on stage in the old days.

My suggestion is to keep shopping and keep saving until you can afford something better.

If you want that Vox tone in a much better amp, look at Vintone, Victoria, 65 Amps
The same thing goes for the 18 watt hand wired amps.

The Celestion Alnicos sound fine, but Weber and Tone Tubby will give you better speakers for your money and they'll handle more volume.

I think I finally came down to the fact I really wanted something special to add to my little amp collection and found this, the Mini Muscle 14. Since I'm in Canada, I wanted to look for one made here and beleive it's worth the extra$

[rob S]

well this discussion proves how subjective all this is.
personally i hated how tonetubbies sounded.
i didn't think weber alinico's sounded like bulldogs.
i also don't think the bulldogs are the end all be all of speakers.
they are great speakers that provide a particular sound.
they're not gonna sound like jensens or jbl's.
those are both different sounds.
for the sake of discussion not the reality of power handling, i don't want a 4X12 loaded with blues for if i'm going for a classic a marshall sound.
i prefer vintage 30's myself.
but i want the blues in my AC30.
i'm not disputing anybody's opinion or saying they are wrong
merely trying to point out that you gotta try this shit out and see what your own ears think.
with that being said, has anybody tried the celestion golds yet?

[FFTT]

I've read many accounts where people buy the TT's only to be dissapointed when they are new. It takes them a while to break in, reportedly 20-30 hours, but then they seem to come to life.

I like original UK built Vintage 30's quite a bit myself, but now the new models are not necessarily of the same build quality.
My best friend has an exceptional black face Deluxe Reverb loaded with a Vintage 30 and the amp is simply magical for cleans to crunch.

So yeah, it's all subjective.

[barthowk]

Originally Posted by manthe

I get that the build quality might be sub-par, at least compared to older units. But, this amp will sit on an amp stand, in a studio for the entire time I own it. So, I'm not too worried about road-worthiness. With its intended use, longevity also shouldn't be a problem...unless there are workmanship issues.

This was the attitude I had when I purchased my AC30 CC2 too. It’s just gonna sit on a stand in my studio, so why should I be worried about build quality, right?

Well, I decided to take it out of my studio one time (not counting the other times it’s left my studio so I could take it to be repaired I guess). When I did so, the thing fell apart (see my previous post on page 1).

I like the way the amp sounds, but something costing $1000 that falls apart like a wet piece of paper just doesn’t cut it with me, even when only using it for studio work.

[FFTT]

It's so hard to get this point across about build quality.

Even the original '64's were shakey at best forcing the bands that used them
to keep several back-ups ready to roll when touring.

One little known historical fact about the Beatles is that they were getting ready for their tour to Germany and went down to the local music store hoping to buy Fenders, but everything was sold out, so all that was left was Vox.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by FFTT

It's so hard to get this point across about build quality.

Even the original '64's were shakey at best forcing the bands that used them
to keep several back-ups ready to roll when touring.

One little known historical fact about the Beatles is that they were getting ready for their tour to Germany and went down to the local music store hoping to buy Fenders, but everything was sold out, so all that was left was Vox.

You guys are making me seriously question this amp now!

Would a new Fender have better build quality, or are they suffering from the same lack of quality control?

What is it that breaks? Is there something preventative that can be done? Are we talking about grill cloths coming off and staples coming loose? Or are we talking about internal electronics? Either way, can anything be done to secure the VOX and make it more 'road-worthy'?

What about the AC15? Same issues? I know it doesn't sound as good. Is it their entire line that suffers?

Who makes a durable amp?


Thanks!

[barthowk]

Originally Posted by manthe

You guys are making me seriously question this amp now!

Would a new Fender have better build quality, or are they suffering from the same lack of quality control?

What is it that breaks? Is there something preventative that can be done? Are we talking about grill cloths coming off and staples coming loose? Or are we talking about internal electronics? Either way, can anything be done to secure the VOX and make it more 'road-worthy'?

What about the AC15? Same issues? I know it doesn't sound as good. Is it their entire line that suffers?

Who makes a durable amp?


Thanks!

I haven’t heard about quality problems with Fenders like I have with the VOXes. From what I can tell, the problem with the VOXes is that you don’t ever really know what’s going to break on them.

For the price of a VOX with Alnico speakers, you can get a boutique amp that has better tone and way better build quality.

Regarding amps with better build quality that are like a VOX, Dr. Z’s Stang Ray is very VOXish and has an excellent reputation. TopHat’s Club Royale is based on the old VOX design and also has an excellent reputation (contact me if you’re interested in a brand new one for a great price - I’m not a dealer or anything BTW). I’m sure there are more, but those are the two that I’m familiar with.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by barthowk

This was the attitude I had when I purchased my AC30 CC2 too. It’s just gonna sit on a stand in my studio, so why should I be worried about build quality, right?

Well, I decided to take it out of my studio one time (not counting the other times it’s left my studio so I could take it to be repaired I guess). When I did so, the thing fell apart (see my previous post on page 1).

I like the way the amp sounds, but something costing $1000 that falls apart like a wet piece of paper just doesn’t cut it with me, even when only using it for studio work.

And yet I've let several bands gig with my ac30cc dozens of times and it's never fallen apart. Still looks and plays as well as the day I bought it.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by barthowk

I haven’t heard about quality problems with Fenders like I have with the VOXes. From what I can tell, the problem with the VOXes is that you don’t ever really know what’s going to break on them.

For the price of a VOX with Alnico speakers, you can get a boutique amp that has better tone and way better build quality.

Regarding amps with better build quality that are like a VOX, Dr. Z’s Stang Ray is very VOXish and has an excellent reputation. TopHat’s Club Royale is based on the old VOX design and also has an excellent reputation (contact me if you’re interested in a brand new one for a great price - I’m not a dealer or anything BTW). I’m sure there are more, but those are the two that I’m familiar with.

Do some searches, you'll be plenty of people complaining about build quality and rattles associated with the smaller Fender combos. As far as what sounds better, well that's all subjective. I record lots of very nice amps and the ac30cc sits in a mix as good if not better than most of them. It's the only amp I don't have to touch once it's in the mix. BTW I'm not just trying to counter everything you say, I like some of the amps you're recommending and respect your experience with the ac30, it's build quality issues almost made me not buy the amp but I'm honestly very glad I did.

[manthe]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

Do some searches, you'll be plenty of people complaining about build quality and rattles associated with the smaller Fender combos. As far as what sounds better, well that's all subjective. I record lots of very nice amps and the ac30cc sits in a mix as good if not better than most of them. It's the only amp I don't have to touch once it's in the mix. BTW I'm not just trying to counter everything you say, I like some of the amps you're recommending and respect your experience with the ac30, it's build quality issues almost made me not buy the amp but I'm honestly very glad I did.

I'd really be interested to hear some stories about things that break on the AC30CC. If I can spot some trends, perhaps I can do some preventative maintenance.

[barthowk]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

And yet I've let several bands gig with my ac30cc dozens of times and it's never fallen apart. Still looks and plays as well as the day I bought it.

Well, I’ll admit that I have developed a prejudice against AC-30 CC2s and kinda “have it out” for Korg (VOX) now. However, this only happened after my bad experiences with my amp. That said, I understand that just because mine is crappy, it doesn’t mean that every one out there will fall apart so easily too.

I do like their tone, I just think that the risk is too high whether you will get a lemon or not. For just a few hundred more you can get amps that are, in my opinion, of a substantially higher caliber both in terms of tone and in their consistently high build quality. I think the current AC-30s are not at a good price point.

Regarding Fender amps, I should have made it more clear that I’m not familiar with any issues they have. I didn’t mean to imply that I have any knowledge of their problems (or lack thereof). I don’t.

[FFTT]

One of the most magical amps I've ever heard is my neighbor's black face Deluxe Reverb converted to 40 watts with a single 12" UK built Vintage 30.

It absolutely sparkles!

The only thing missing is a half power switch.

If he wants more aggressive lead tones, he runs a speaker cable over to his single 10" Flight cabinet.

You can apply the same idea to a well built Vox clone running 30 watts for headroom
and sparkle and dropping down to half power 15 watts for leads.

What you don't get in an off the shelf Vox is quality components, pots, filters, caps tranny or true point to point construction.

Your choice of speakers also has a great impact on the tones you'll be able to get.

Quite a bit of that classic Vox tone comes from Alnicos

I would highly recommend a head/cabinet configuration over a combo
if you can swing the cost.

It's just going to be more versatile in the long run.

Since you are fortunate enough to live in Florida, I would definitely give Doug Stalters a call and see what he can come up with.

[sloanfiske]

keep the ac30. you've upgraded and said you like how it sounds. once it doesn't, then unload it. unless you cart it around a ton, probably not likely to fall apart.

the previous poster mentioned his friends 40 watt deluxe...

I always wanted a 2x10...so I got a 1969 50w bassman blackfaced head, retubed it, shoved it in a custom built cab with 2 different kinds of speakers (eminence...cajun and copperhead), and put a pentode/tridode (half power) switch in it. now a perfect studio and live amp. Has a fender sound, with a bit of chime and bite because of the speakers.

a handwired "boutique" amp at a fraction of the cost.

and emi really nailed it with their new speakers.

all of it's subjective. now wait till you start buying piles of pedals...ugh.

[Orren]

Another option is getting an Egnater modular amp or combo, such as the MOD50 head or 1x12 or 2x12, and loading it with one of the Fender dual channel modules, and the vox module.

I have the Vox module for my MOD50—it's spectacular, and very true to the Vox tone, especially if you use THD Electronics Yellow Jacket adapters to use EL84 tubes in the power section. I am currently ordering a couple of the Fender units, which sound really good.

Just another avenue, if you have the money. Egnater Amplification

Orren

[rob S]

interesting, i really did not like how the yellow jackets sounded.
i tried them in a few different things.
i really wanted to like them, its such a cool idea, yet, in this subjective
world of tone i thought they kinda sucked.