Fender Princeton

[johnwayne]

I'm thinking of getting one of these bad boys and I was wondering what years are the best? Also blackface or silver how do they differ in tone. I know the 60's models are quite more expensive than the silverface of the 70's.

I know the blackface super's are killer and the twin. Just looking for some opinions.

[FFTT]

The trouble with buying any vintage amp is that many may still need some TLC simply due to the age of the components and you are paying a tremendous premium for collectibility where you may be better off tonally investing in a better amplifier altogether. Still small, pure Class A, hand wired all point to point.

You can still get "that tone" and more with the highest quality components, better speakers, solid cabinets and so on.

For that kind of money, I'd be looking at Vintone, Divided by 13, 65Amps, Carr, Bad Cat and Fuchs.

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by johnwayne

I'm thinking of getting one of these bad boys and I was wondering what years are the best? Also blackface or silver how do they differ in tone. I know the 60's models are quite more expensive than the silverface of the 70's.

I know the blackface super's are killer and the twin. Just looking for some opinions.

Best one I played was a Brownface Princeton. Great amps.

[FFTT]

There's a whole bunch of vintage 50's and 60's Princetons on gbase.com

But you have to really watch it.

Many have had parts changes and are no longer truly original.

The cabinets are mostly road weary and who knows who did any repair work on them.

You're looking at $1100-$2400 for a questionable amp and I just think you can do
better talking to Doug at Vintone or Fred at Divided By 13

[pan60]

the best sounding Princeton's, ( IMHO ) are the brown's.
they have what is buy many considered to be the ultimate tremolo and have been describe have a low watt version of the deluxe.
these amp are amongst my favorites for the studio.
their are also a few early back ones that are the same circuit.
these are easily identified as they only have four knobs, volume, tone, speed, and intensity.
they show up on ebay often but you might just call a few guitar shops and find one as well.
these are old amp and often need repair for me that is not that big a issues as the amps get used.
to a collector they would need to be perfect but for use get one and have a tech go over it and tune it up.
here is one i just found on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fender-Brownface...QQcmdZViewItem
i am sure their are more.
it would cost a lot more money to have a clone built so it is still a bargain.
if you what that back face ones, ( of the same model ) will sale for a bit less and they are identical.

[pan60]

here is my brown and black

[FFTT]

Those are both VERY nice indeed!

The only problem is that it can be a real crap shoot trying to find one that has been
properly cared for.

I'm sure all us wish that Fender would stop screwing around and get back to building
their best hand wired legacy amps.

[BOWIE]

I've got two Blackface and a Silver. The silver is a little harsh in the upper mids but it's got bass for days! I record w/ the blacks. They are only two years apart but they sound different from each other because one has the original speaker and the other has had a cap-job. I think that most vintage speakers sound awful but this one is so unbelieveably sweet that I only use it for critical recording sessions.
The Blackface sound is deep, rich, and really chimes in the high end. Bass is punchy and tight.. Mids are a bit subdued but still detailed and sweet. I greatly prefer the blackface to any other amp because I can get great tone at low volumes and it takes pedals (especially high-gain ones) better than any other amp I've ever used.
After much tube rolling, I recommend Tung Sol 6V6's & Mullard 12AX7's (though the right Amperex or TungSol/RCA will sound great too). I happen to have a few 6V6 & 12AX7 for sale if anybbody needs.
For the GZ34, Mullard is a must-have. Huge tonal difference (expect to pay over $80 but they last forever).

[FFTT]

You mentioned the Princetons but also the Twin and the Deluxe, so it might be a good idea to know about your expected application.

Are you looking for something strictly for recording and small clubs or are you
in need of something more versatile that will better handle live drums, and have more clean headroom.

12 watts class A is great for recording, but may leave you wanting in a live setting.

Any information you can provide will help us help you with your decision.

[bambalam]

I have a great sounding brown princeton and used to have a black face as well. I think they are cool amps but if I was looking to buy one I would absolutely be looking for a princeton reverb instead. Even if you don't care about the reverb it adds an extra gain stage or something and IMHO are much better sounding amps than the princeton.
I also agree with the other posters, though, that for the price they are going for now there are alot of other choices out there.
My 2cents.

Dan


Dan Petty

[pineyb]

I'll add a vote for the brown Princeton. Try to find one that you can play before buying......

[dualtone]

Depends on what you're going for....but if you want a basic clean-ish black/silverface thing, believe it or not, I've got a '70s silver one that I think sounds beautiful. (It doesn't sound bad cranked, either.) I'm not a fan of the silverface amps usually, but this thing is great. It's even the especially undesirable "pull boost" model. You can, as I had done, take the boost out of the circuit. It's probably the cheapest of the bunch, maybe a good buy.

[BOWIE]

Originally Posted by bambalam

if I was looking to buy one I would absolutely be looking for a princeton reverb instead. Even if you don't care about the reverb it adds an extra gain stage or something and IMHO are much better sounding amps than the princeton.

Louder isn't always better.
I very much prefer the non-reverb Prince's. Then again, I hate the cheezy faux blues that many Fender players enjoy. The "I'm an accountant but I play in a band every Friday at Joe's Tavern" sound. The Reverb nails that perfectly. The Non-Reverbs sound a little more raw and they sorta "sag" a little. Probably the tone of the 6V6's.

Also worth mentioning that I run all my vintage amps through a variac @ 115v (as they were made for) instead of 122v out of the wall and I find the tone more rich and growly.

[waffle waitress]

I have a mint 1977 Silverface Princeton Reverb w/original RCA tubes. I have heard that the princeton is one of the amps that had the leaste amount of changes from BF to SF...the tremolo is just awesome...I prefer this trem to Deluxe Reverbs trem...

You gotta play them...they all sound different.

I have been very happy w/mine. They are great little amps. Get one!

I have/had tons of botique amps...not the same....great too but very different.

[pan60]

i also prefer the non reverb's :)
i run a 5V4 rectifier in both amps and 5881's in the black face most of the time.
at one time i had nine brown's but now just the one.
i wish i would have kept a couple more.
if you look at what a nice boutique point to point amp would cost.
you could easily invest in having one refurbed and have a killer amp.
or grab a jule Brenda K!!!!!!!!
http://www.juleamps.com/

[lowswing]

in the same ball park: I use vibro-champ through a tweed cab filled with 1x122 alnico tone tubby. sounds amazing, very dynamic and also the champ tremolo is my all time favorite tremolo.

[bambalam]

Louder isn't always better.

I wasn't talking about it being louder- it really changes the tone. It's either to your liking or not.

I very much prefer the non-reverb Prince's. Then again, I hate the cheezy faux blues that many Fender players enjoy. The "I'm an accountant but I play in a band every Friday at Joe's Tavern" sound.

Not really sure where all of that came from-but I guess I'll leave it alone.

[johnwayne]

Thanks for all the comments. I currently use a 76 Twin for some recording and live gigs. It sounds great with Vintage 30's, NOS GE preamp tubes, and the 2 inner power tubes removed. It is a bit loud and heavy.

The smaller amps have a totally different vibe which I dig. The fat clean with your volume knob down and then nasty when your guitar volume knob on 10. I was looking at this for recording and some small club gigs.

Also looking at the Vox AC15, Ampeg reverberocket (souunds killer for clean with a JBL speaker) or a silverface Princeton.

My local amp tech ley me play a silver face he modded to get the sound of the reverb model and that baby smoked. He then hooked it up to a 2X12 cabinet with vintage 30's and it sounded great.

Without the mod it didn't break up near as much. I can't remember what he did, but one of the knobs became a gain knob I think.

[FFTT]

I guess it boils down to what you really want an amp to do for you and of course your budget.

Personally, I would rather save up for an amp that does exactly what I want
rather than feeling I've settled once again for something not all that great.

I've already accepted the fact that it's going to cost me at least $2500.00 and probably
more for my next amp/speaker combo.

You only live once.

[johnwayne]

Originally Posted by FFTT

I guess it boils down to what you really want an amp to do for you and of course your budget.

Personally, I would rather save up for an amp that does exactly what I want
rather than feeling I've settled once again for something not all that great.

I've already accepted the fact that it's going to cost me at least $2500.00 and probably
more for my next amp/speaker combo.

You only live once.

Good point. It seems my taste is very expensive also. Gotta have the API Pres, gotta have the 1176, gotta have the best 15w combo there is. It is fun though. Not sure what I'll be getting. I'll probably try out some more amps.

[FFTT]

If I could find one locally, I'd love to try out the 65Amps London and Marquee.

Same thing goes for the Divided By 13 RSA 23

It gets tougher if you want on board reverb or tremelo.

If I could make it to Florida, I'd love to drop by Doug's shop and try out

his SimpleX V front 2X10, ACEY 30 and 'Luxe Reverb.

He also has an '84 Express circuit that interests me a lot.

The Bad Cat Tone Cat and Trem Cat also look rather nifty.

I'm staying way from anything with a P/C board.

[BOWIE]

Originally Posted by pan60

i also prefer the non reverb's :)
i run a 5V4 rectifier in both amps and 5881's in the black face most of the time.
at one time i had nine brown's but now just the one.

No shit? 5881's instead of 6V6's? Wicked. What kind of tone are you getting from that? I have an NOS pair of Tung Sol 5881's that I've been saving for a special occasion. Maybe I'll try em' in the Prince...
Tried the 5V4 but it was a little sizzly for my tastes.

[pineyb]

A well known guitar player friend of mine uses 5881s in place of 6v6s in his tweed deluxes. You can expect louder and more headroom. Watch that 10" on the Princeton though..... you might want to replace it with something that can handle the extra load.....

[dualtone]

Then again, I hate the cheezy faux blues that many Fender players enjoy. The "I'm an accountant but I play in a band every Friday at Joe's Tavern" sound. The Reverb nails that perfectly.

Ummmmm.........
It's always kinda bugged me that gear gets undue credit when folks hear great players use "X" amp, guitar, etc.
So.....now the amp gets blamed for having crappy players use it?!?!?

[neve1073]

i have a dead mint blackface princeton from either 65 or 66. I can't remember. I know it's post CBS "Fender Musical Instruments."
Anyhow, I love it. I have a few little amps and that's probably my favorite, if i had to choose, for recording.

[Jack Pettit]

The change to silver face for the Fender Princeton Reverb in mid 1967
was Cosmetic, as in NOTHING changed except for the silver face.
All books including Fenders say the silver face started in 1968 but it was really
a matter of when the stock of faceplates ran out and that happened a little early for the Princeton Reverbs.

So you could buy a replacement faceplate for a late 1967.
Even Fender would claim it was a black face.

[BOWIE]

Originally Posted by Jack Pettit

The change to silver face for the Fender Princeton Reverb in mid 1967
was Cosmetic, as in NOTHING changed except for the silver face.
All books including Fenders say the silver face started in 1968 but it was really
a matter of when the stock of faceplates ran out and that happened a little early for the Princeton Reverbs.

So you could buy a replacement faceplate for a late 1967.
Even Fender would claim it was a black face.

I can't testify for the reverb version but I have the non-reverb and there WERE changes. I've been told that it's the same case in the reverb too so I'd take a careful look at the schematics before making this statement.
In the non-reverb, for the first couple of years, JUST the plate changed. I have one of these amps. Then, two years later, the rectifier changed along w/ one of the resistors and the output transformer. The voltage was altered by this as well as the tone. I own all three versions (blackface, blackface internals w/ silver face, and silverface) these amps and I've serviced them too. There are obvious differences and the resulting tonal difference is quite significant.

[Jack Pettit]

I have a lot of Fender amps and work closely with some good repair techs.
I also keep up with the latest printed information and web pages.

Going by the information at my disposal, my statements are correct.

I think that it's reasonable that fender only wanted to update the LOOKS of some models and thats what happened with the Princeton Reverb in late 1967.

[FFTT]

Just so you know, Doug at Vintone can lazer engrave you a replacement
faceplate for any amplifier with correct logos etc.

[FFTT]

I just heard the new little hand wired '57 tweed Fender Deluxe today
and have to admit it sounded pretty darn good.

The rep there had the jumper going between the two channels which allows
the two volume controls to interact.

12 Watts Class A, Jensen Alnico, not bad at all.

And you can carry it with 2 fingers easily.