why don't guitars have balanced XLRs?

[UnDeFiNeD]

I was just wondering, prolly stupid question, but why don't they?

I mean most of the time they stand there humming there *ss off, or their jack cable falls out of that hole.

With XLR the cable would click onto the guitar, and cable lengts woudn't be a serious problem, so why not?

Is there a good reason why this is unbalanced/jack? And if not, are there mods for balanced XLR on guitars?

Tnx

[Blor007]

Originally Posted by UnDeFiNeD

I was just wondering, prolly stupid question, but why don't they?

I mean most of the time they stand there humming there *ss off, or their jack cable falls out of that hole.

With XLR the cable would click onto the guitar, and cable lengts woudn't be a serious problem, so why not?

Is there a good reason why this is unbalanced/jack? And if not, are there mods for balanced XLR on guitars?

Tnx

My guess is:
Real XLR because it looks silly !!
Balanced: because of the cost and the basic desire of every shitty guitar player to have a prehistoric hum in their amps.
And there are ALOT of shitty guitar players.


Anyho to answer your question:
I'll guess you have to go wireless or custom.

[DivideByZero]

Regarding hum: balanced cables are only immune to the noise introduced between the output and the destination. Most of the hum you're hearing in an amp comes from either the guitar's pickups or interference affecting the amp itself.

Also, every piece of guitar gear ever made has high impedance unbalanced inputs.

Although, I think Line6's Variax has balanced XLR outs.

[UnDeFiNeD]

Also, every piece of guitar gear ever made has high impedance unbalanced inputs.

Well, thats why I started thinking, there must be a good reason for that, or are guitarist such conservatives that making a balanced XLR connection on their guitar, deems it 'uncool'?
That not one cheap factory tried to sell it as "premium output electronics, for virtually endless cablelenght without audible reduction in quality" or some bs like that.

I mean, I'm an engineer, I try to have the best quality signal available, and then some guitarist comes in, just plugs his crappy 6m unbalanced jack in his amp, and I'm suposed to make it sound clean?!

I'm exaggerating, I know. But I just can't let it lose, must be a good reason for it...

[FFTT]

My Epiphone/Gibson Skunk Baxter Cutaway has both 1/4"and XLR outs.

The guitar sounds best mic'd

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by DivideByZero

Most of the hum you're hearing in an amp comes from... the guitar's pickups

thumbsup

--jon

[dviola]

as pointed out earlier, xlr would look rediculous...trs would be the better choice but little interference is introduced through the cable plus you would have to put trs jacks on your amp/pedals etc...its mostly the strings pickups amp and feedback (albeit a small amount)...isolate the amp for a cleaner sound when recording

[DeeDrive]

i think balancing is overrated. Balancing is really only necessary with mics, because of the small signals mics produce. I don't see the necessity of balancing anything besides a mic input and a mic pre input, once a signal is line level, noise is not much of a problem, at least for me.

Balancing a guitar signal just seems like overkill. Extra transformers and circuits to clutter the signal, that really aren't necessary.

[JonCraig]

i'm counting 6 switching power supplies within 2 feet of my monitors at the moment. there is certainly a place for balancing.

--jon

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by dviola

as pointed out earlier, xlr would look rediculous

Um, well, I guess rediculous [sic] is in the eye of the beholder; I always thought the 4-pin XLR jacks on Alembic Series I & II guitars looked wicked cool. (But I believe that was for 18v power input, not balanced audio output.)

I think the folks who pointed out that most guitar amps have unbalanced high impedance inputs are more on the money.

Remember when Gibson tried to introduce low impedance pickups in the early 1970's? The Les Paul Recording, the Les Paul Signature, the first version of the L-5S... they even supplied some of them with a special cable that had the low-to-high xformer built in to the amplifier end.

Those models all tanked in the marketplace. Guitarists (being traditionalist luddites) wanted nothing to do with low impedance. I suspect it's the same with balanced outputs.

[Lava Man]

Balanced is the ideal way to go, and the Taylor 714 CE i have has a balanced out that sounds much, much better than using an unbalanced cable. The problem is that most guitar amp inputs are unbalanced, and to get the full effect of a balanced cable the input and output need to be balanced.

[nathanvacha]

are you talking acoustic or electric guitars... because the aforementioned guitars that people are saying have xlr jacks are all acoustics... but those have a built in preamp and you normally plug them into a p.a., not a guitar am (yes i know they make 'acoustic' amps) whereas there's a huge interaction going on between an electric guitar and the way the signal hits the amp... a tranny will change that.

they are the way they are because that's the best the technology's gonna get.

well, i should point out too, you do know there are active electronics avail. for elec. guitars, right? they still use a regular guitar cable, but fly the colors of being noiseless... as in the pickups, but amps are still prone to hum

[Tommy Fobia]

I have the option of using either a jack or an XLR on a custom guitar I own and I really like the look of it!
It isn't wired to be balanced as I have yet to find a guitar amp with a balanced input, but at least I never get 'crackly jack socket disease'.

I think jack plugs are badly designed and out of date.

[jrp]

No further electronics are needed.
A Pickup already is a balanced source...
But without a balanced input it is useless.
I was thinking about the same thing. I belive it is tradition. Tube guitar amps being unbalanced. Guitars and basses being the same.
Nobody ever changed it.

[Flip_]

I always thought the 60 cycle hum was from single coil pickups. I never thought it had anything to do with the cable, unless there was a bad connection or something.

If a istwants you to make his humming guitar sound cleaner, tell him to get some hum canceling pickups or shield the cavity under the pickguard. Eliminating hum should be his responsibility and the job of a guitar tech not engineer, unless you do both.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

Um, well, I guess rediculous [sic] is in the eye of the beholder; I always thought the 4-pin XLR jacks on Alembic Series I & II guitars looked wicked cool. (But I believe that was for 18v power input, not balanced audio output.)

Guitarists (being traditionalist luddites) wanted nothing to do with low impedance. I suspect it's the same with balanced outputs.

I have the 5 pin XLR's on my custom Lakefront Guatamalan rosewood guitar and my koa wood P-bass. Yes, they are wired "Alembic style" stereo with + - 18 volt power rails to operate the internal preamps/EQ. They have a 2 band sweep EQ, active panning/blending and dual preamps. There are also piezo pickups in both for that acoustic tone.

Balanced? No. Don't need it. With proper humcancelling techniques and a low output impedance under 50 ohms, there are no losses like with high impedance wiring and no noise. Yes, I used high impedance pickups on the guitar but the P-bass has a custom wound P-bass pickup wound to 1k ohms per coil by Seymour Duncan back in 1979. It does 32k hz response. Yes, my cat can hear that.

As to 1/4" jacks, why do you wrap the cable around the strap?

So it doesn't come out onstage. That problem was solved 40 years ago.

[Jazz Noise]

Balancing isn't neccesary for the guitar because, as has been said, because pickup noise would be common to both and because the onboard noise is almost always more of an issue than cable-noise. There's also the issue that despite the claim of a 6dB SNR with balanced audio it is quite hard to not end up just losing that to noise from extra components.

Ultimately the Low Z thing is dependant on the user. I don't mind guitar hum - to me it's a part of how my Strat sounds. If I want it gone I'll select an "inbetween" position or roll back the volume knob so I'm not ruining the guitar-less parts, but it's the flaws that make it what it is.

I am curious about these Low Z pickups however. Are these things just massive inductors or has he done it up like a transformer perhaps? Give us the scoop, Jim!

[Jim Williams]

Yes, guitar pickups are massive inductors. Pickup windings affect output level and where in frequency the resonant peak will reside. High impedance guitar pickups are wound from 5 to 15k ohms, DC resistance. That places the resonant peak into the audio band, it gives a pickup it's personality. You find that peak from 3 to 10k hz, higher for lower output vintage style pickups, lower for overwound or "hot" pickups.

Lower impedance pickups place the resonant peak above the audio range, you will have an essentially flat response pickup, not what most guitar players want.

I found that works better for electric bass, if you want a hi-fi acoustic type of response.

[Jazz Noise]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Lower impedance pickups place the resonant peak above the audio range, you will have an essentially flat response pickup, not what most guitar players want.

I found that works better for electric bass, if you want a hi-fi acoustic type of response.

O.k, cool! I was wondering if this was moving the resonance outside the audio spectra but I assumed the winding would be standard High Z with something bringing the impedance down afterwards. Or magic.

Sounds interesting. Would love to hear it!

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by UnDeFiNeD

I was just wondering, prolly stupid question, but why don't they?

I mean most of the time they stand there humming there *ss off, or their jack cable falls out of that hole.

With XLR the cable would click onto the guitar, and cable lengts woudn't be a serious problem, so why not?

Is there a good reason why this is unbalanced/jack? And if not, are there mods for balanced XLR on guitars?

Tnx

Guitar pickup technology is basically 1930s technology with some minor upgrades in the 40s and 50s. It is all relatively primitive, but no one seems to have made any significant improvement in bows for stringed instruments in a while, either.

There are low impedance pickups, and balanced guitars. For the most part, no one likes the sound. (my balanced bass is a different story. Sounds just fine.)

If my choice is to pull over the amp stack or have the plug pop out of the jack, I'll take the latter.

By the way, Switchcraft makes a 1/4" plug with a captured knurled nut on the end, screws easily into the excess threading on a guitar jack and an amp jack. Solidly locks in far more securely than an XLR. Those amp stacks fall right over, no problem. (I experimented with this in the 1970s. Gravity is a bitch on Marshall stacks.) Breaks off the plastic jack panel of a 1957 Les Paul, too. Try to find THAT part.

25 years ago, someone might have been interested in developing a better guitar amplification chain. Now, all anybody is interested in is duplicating the look of the past and getting enough distortion so that no one knows if you played the right thing or not.

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by UnDeFiNeD

I was just wondering, prolly stupid question, but why don't they?
edit

Is there a good reason why this is unbalanced/jack? And if not, are there mods for balanced XLR on guitars?

Tnx

You are forgetting history, and original designs. The true answer is, that's the way they made them!

also, there were no switching power supplies back in the 30s and 40s, and the amps were unbalanaced hi Z tube affairs, and so on, so on.

It's like asking why cars burn gasoline - that was the best they had at one time, and now there are monopolies and lobbyists to keep it that way, when we have better ways to do it now! Hope that isn't too political, but true.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Jazz Noise

O.k, cool! I was wondering if this was moving the resonance outside the audio spectra but I assumed the winding would be standard High Z with something bringing the impedance down afterwards. Or magic.

Standard Hi Z pickups for the tone, impedance conversion to eliminate losses. I do that with on-board preamps. They have a 2.2 meg input impedance to prevent loading and a very low output impedance that eliminates cable losses, eliminates microphonic cables and drives the crap out of tube amps. They even drive headphones for silent practicing.

Balancing is not needed. Impedance conversion does the "magic" for you.

[Draytone]

There was a line of Gibson electrics (can't remember which ones) which used the Neutrik D style 1/4" locking jack. To me that makes total sense. However the Neutrik is about $10 a unit whereas the cheap Switchcraft types are probably 0.10c a unit. I can imagine this would add a significant cost to the final product. But it's the age old, "if it ain't really broke, does it really need to be fixed". Kinda like how the Floyd Rose was going to be the answer to guitar trems.... It's not everyone's cup of tea.