How do you mix synth strings in a pop mix?

[Mike H]

I am banging my head against the wall trying to mix two synth orchestral string tracks in a pop mix. I used the Atmosphere plug-in to create the tracks, and the tracks are beautiful with only them and the drums. But when I add lead guitar, rhythm guitar, keys and vocals the strings just wash everything out. They are not focused enough. I have each panned wide, which I need..........the rhythm guitar and piano are short little fills only. Without the strings, there is too much space. But as I add them in, they immediately fill up everything.

I have tried EQ and compression with just about all the gear I have, and I haven't found the key yet. Right now I am running them thru a Red 3 and the mid-forward Red 3 gives them a more localized focus. But, they are still "too much".

It may be more a matter of reverb and predelay to find a space for them..................but it keeps being a very big space.

I just tried to see if I could fade them in and out, but it just moves from too much space to wash-out very quickly.

I tried with both 1084 and EQ-2NV to EQ them. There are lots of mids and if you try to EQ out all the mids that compete with guitar and keys and also tighten them up, you end up with not much left. Probably just lack of knowledge on my part.

Any guys out there who routinely mix with synth strings/pads? They are unique critters, for me at least. Help!!

[Led]

Maybe just don't have them as loud in the mix? I've always found that big long verbs contribute to strings wahing the mix out. I've often ended up using delay intead.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Mike H

I am banging my head against the wall trying to mix two synth orchestral string tracks in a pop mix.

First problem.

Originally Posted by Mike H

I used the Atmosphere plug-in to create the tracks

2nd problem.

Atmosphere is famous for taking up lots of space in the mix. I feel sometimes its too good and the GUI doesn't give you many things to program it with.

Originally Posted by Mike H

, and the tracks are beautiful with only them and the drums. But when I add lead guitar, rhythm guitar, keys and vocals the strings just wash everything out. They are not focused enough. I have each panned wide, which I need..........the rhythm guitar and piano are short little fills only. Without the strings, there is too much space. But as I add them in, they immediately fill up everything.

I have tried EQ and compression with just about all the gear I have, and I haven't found the key yet. Right now I am running them thru a Red 3 and the mid-forward Red 3 gives them a more localized focus. But, they are still "too much".

It may be more a matter of reverb and predelay to find a space for them..................but it keeps being a very big space.

I just tried to see if I could fade them in and out, but it just moves from too much space to wash-out very quickly.

I tried with both 1084 and EQ-2NV to EQ them. There are lots of mids and if you try to EQ out all the mids that compete with guitar and keys and also tighten them up, you end up with not much left. Probably just lack of knowledge on my part.

Any guys out there who routinely mix with synth strings/pads? They are unique critters, for me at least. Help!!

Whenever possible i try to layer real strings with the synth stuff in order to make it present but lush at the same time.

I rarely compress and if done more for the color(Neve 2254) than the control. I prefer to create movement & control with automation. Sometimes its across 4 stereo pairs of faders if layered(contrabass,cello,viola,violin) sometimes its bussed down to a pair with a compressor over the pair. But when you look at the faders they are constantly moving as well.

You have to understand 2 things about strings in general...how they fit in the arrangement and there placement on the stage or during a performance. That will help in the treatment and how & when you bring focus to it. I will tell you though these days less and less do i pan things hard left and hard right and if done so its more to highlight and event that happens in a song maybe once in a while. If its something that is going on through out than i pan it from 90% and in.

On the processing you have to carve out parts based on panning and EQ. This goes for whatever effect processors you use as well. These days i lean more towards combinations of some synthethic efx and some kind of convolution solution unless there is a live chamber lying around. Sorta how a vocal is mixed but more bandwith limited based on the production.

[Led]

Thrill makes a good point that I overlooked - the arrangement. I was apprentice to a pretty big orchestral guy when I was younger. I was always amazed at how he could alter one or two notes in my arrangements and suddenly everything fitted. Are your strings voiced in the same frequency area as the guitars and things they are clashing with, maybe you could alter the voicing, shift everything up or down a little.

[Mike H]

Thanks, great advice.

My exact thought, Thrill..............these sound too darn good and big alone.

I panned them in a bit.

Then I did some layering. I did it only with Atmosphere because I haven't gotten my EWQLSO yet (I sure hope that is easier to control), but layering in the Atmosphere "human synth" helped a lot.

Then I took them both to Origins and EQ'ed some 220 out.

Then I multed them both to separate V77's and sent a different mono reverb to the opposite side with each and played with predelay.

As a result, they are sitting much better.

Now I have to look at the hard stuff TTF recommended.

I really appreciate the help. I'll work on them tonight.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Now I have to look at the hard stuff TTF recommended.

I really appreciate the help. I'll work on them tonight.

Also check this out:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr9...recstrings.htm

I remember reading this a while back and thought it was pretty interesting how it describes the process.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Also check this out:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr9...recstrings.htm

I remember reading this a while back and thought it was pretty interesting how it describes the process.

Thanks so much, Thrill.

By any chance have you used EWQL Symphony Orchestra? I need one really good virtual instrument for strings, brass, etc. so it doesn't sound cheesy. If this is a lot easier to get to sit in the mix, I'll spring for it. But at that price it needs to be good.

Thanks again!

[Led]

Have you checked out any of the Peter Siedlaczeck orchestra libraries? He does pretty comprehensive stuff. I have all of them and they are still the most used in my library. With the EWQL depending on the bundle version you also get pianos and organs etc which could make it worth the price.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Thanks so much, Thrill.

By any chance have you used EWQL Symphony Orchestra? I need one really good virtual instrument for strings, brass, etc. so it doesn't sound cheesy. If this is a lot easier to get to sit in the mix, I'll spring for it. But at that price it needs to be good.

Thanks again!

No i haven't.

These days i just call friends up who are string players and barter for services. Even if its a four piece tracked and stacked a couple of times its still better than the samples.

I then layer the synth/sampler/rompler stuff on top to fill it out.

[NathanC]

The problem could be in the arrangement.

When I program strings, I like to treat them as if they were backing vocals. So for instance if the singer sings the first voice, I'll let the strings play the 3rd and the 5th voice (or whatever fits in the arrangement). Also, bass notes can muddy things up. If you don't need them, don't play them. So basically I listen to the song and analyse where the gaps are musically and fill them in with strings (or other instruments or vocals).

[ArcCirDude]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Thanks so much, Thrill.

By any chance have you used EWQL Symphony Orchestra? I need one really good virtual instrument for strings, brass, etc. so it doesn't sound cheesy. If this is a lot easier to get to sit in the mix, I'll spring for it. But at that price it needs to be good.

Thanks again!

Well, I'm not Thrill but I own EWQLSO and just installed the XP expansion set today and I must say that these samples absolutely smoke. Scary smoke. Like in a good John Carpenter film scary smoke... NO problem working these into a mix. But beware.. They eat up processors, being 24 bit recordings (I'm talking about the Platinum edition, here.)
The recomended set-up is one high-end multi processor computer per orchestral group. I did a fairly simple fanfare project this fall and after 4 trumpets, 4 t-bones and 4 french horns I had to start bouncing to continue with the arrangement (Mac G5, dual 2gighz 4meg ram). In about two years a high-end Mac or PC should be able to handle the whole library.

[Oldone]

Many musicians add parts from a "play along" perspective but they don't think in terms of frequency location of the instrument. A guitar competing with piano is a good example. Why not move one or the other out of competing ranges? Play the same part an octave higher or lower. In the case of a harmony part, take it out of the general range of the first instrument. This helps the engineer mix and improves the sound overall. Preplanned frequency spread saves a lot of pain in the mix. (A good producer or arranger knows this)

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by ArcCirDude

Well, I'm not Thrill but I own EWQLSO and just installed the XP expansion set today and I must say that these samples absolutely smoke. Scary smoke. Like in a good John Carpenter film scary smoke... NO problem working these into a mix. But beware.. They eat up processors, being 24 bit recordings (I'm talking about the Platinum edition, here.)
The recomended set-up is one high-end multi processor computer per orchestral group. I did a fairly simple fanfare project this fall and after 4 trumpets, 4 t-bones and 4 french horns I had to start bouncing to continue with the arrangement (Mac G5, dual 2gighz 4meg ram). In about two years a high-end Mac or PC should be able to handle the whole library.

Thanks for the reinforcement. I went ahead and ordered the Platinum bundle while the sale is on. The bundle is less than half list price, plus another 10% off at audioMIDI. That is a pretty good price for the best quality available.

Yes, the load on the computer will be too much, even with my G5 dual 2.7 (8GB RAM). With VI's I get the main instruments playing, find what I like, then print audio tracks and play some more virtual instruments, etc. Not as ideal as playing the full orchestra as virtual instruments, but it works fine for me. I can always come back and replace a track if I don't like what I end up with. I don't normally work with full orchestras, but rather fills into pop, R&B, etc. So less of a problem for me.

I am really excited this.

Thanks for the help.

[Improv]

Thrill's advice is great.

It kills me the number of clients that come in to "do strings" and just end up playing the keys part over again, only routing it to a string patch. That's not how real strings work and they know it, but it's "close enough" for most of them. Not for me.

If you want easy and cheap, I like the strings in Atmosphere layered with Garritan Personal Orchestra solo string patches. It's probably the cheapest string library out there, and I don't like it on it's own. But the solo strings give a nice, slightly-real vibe with some swell and movement that you don't get in big atmosphere patches. Split your "pad track" out to 3 or 4 seperate string lines (the best you can) so you have some individual control over the GPO flavorings. Rides are your best friend with string mixing. And, as has been said, a little goes a long way. Keep it low in the mix, and all your friends will be fooled!