Summing Unit OR Analog Console

[piccazzo]

As the price of Analog consoles are dropping to almost the same price as an
High quality summing unit ( Neve , 2-bus etc ) the question is what is worth getting.
With a console you get EQ , Routing and summing but is the summing as good as on a Neve 8816 or a 2-bus.

The thing is im considering buying an summing unit just to send the stereo output through it for some analog flavor and that`s probably what i would do with an console also But with an console i have the option to use it more in the mixingprocess if i want to.

The price range im considering is 4000 - 8000 USD.

If ya all had to choose , what road would you take ?

- Gearslutz wannabee -

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by piccazzo

The price range im considering is 4000 - 8000 USD.

If ya all had to choose , what road would you take ?

- Gearslutz wannabee -

At this price range i would choose none if i wanted a console for mixing and for a summing unit the sky is basically the limit.

For a summer probably something you can use when you get a real console because eventually you will miss all of the functions and benefits of a real console and you will have to cave in and buy one.

Summing units have major limitations that you realize the more you commit to mixing in the analog domain.

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by piccazzo

If ya all had to choose , what road would you take ?

Once I was in the same boat like you, I decided for an old small format broadcast-console, it needed some maintenace but it was worth the effort. This board sounds just damn good, I never looked back since then.

Andreas

[u b k]

if you just need routing, fx, level, pan, and summing, no preamps/eq's, you can do the chandler, the api, or the tonelux within your budget. of those, the tone of the chandler and the tonelux are gorgeous, the api is nice but not as sweet.

the chandler is what it is, no more no less, but it has a color you can't get anywhere else on the planet, and it's a fine color indeed. the tonelux's sound is not unique, it sounds like a 70's era api2488 console, one of my favorite set of electronics ever. i've got a vintage sidecar and a tonelux rack sitting on top of it, the sidecar sounds fantastic but the tonelux steps on it in all 3 dimensions, which is depressing, because the tonelux is not mine and will be leaving soon .

curse these toys!


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[foldback]

I use an 8816 Neve, it sounds great and has a ton of features.

With the fader pack attached I have one limited aux send...... so I use a ton of outboard to make up for the lack of tone controls and aux sends. My patch bay is always a birds nest but I've never been happier with the sound.

Lately I've been experimenting with a pile of Chameleon Labs 7602 as individual channel strips (EQ), they make toms sound fantastic at mix, I'm heading towards buying 16 of these so every input on my Neve has one, hell it's changin into a Euro-Asian console :-)

My Neve is driving a UA2192 and a pair of Meyer HD-1. These are the best sounding songs I've ever produced so it's working for somebody, ymmv.

[GYang]

I really like analogue summing box paradigm (when compared to ITB), but for routine works still limitations are definitely there.
Sonically I'm sure most of summing boxes will bring you nearer to real analogue mix, especially if high quality analogue processing is used.
I closely look on Tonelux, as well as, Rupert Neve upcoming console (in 24 or 36 ch configuration).
Also, I doubt that for 5k is possible to get really good sounding console and if analogue path is not high quality than the whole OTB concept is missed.

[Andrew Kinsey]

What it boils down to is that both summing units and mixers are not the same and do not do the same things, if your making a descision you have to consider what it is that you want from these units.

If you get a summing mixer than all you want is an analog path for each of your channels to go through. You wont have, faders, eq, preamps, routing etc.. Summing mixers are their to colour the sound and make your music sound less digitized.

A mixer is a completely different animal, they have comprehensive routing, EQ's, faders, and loads of other features. They are designed for mixing, tracking, and so on, not just as a unit to add harmonics.

Their are so many additional benefits of having an analog mixer, the downside is that all these benefits make them more costly but IMO its worth it in the long run.

BTW..There are decent mixers available in your price range.

[mltamisin]

I'd have to say analog console. All the outboard gear buzz is driving the cost of used analog boards down. Good time to get one.

[danasti]

Originally Posted by piccazzo

The price range im considering is 4000 - 8000 USD.

If ya all had to choose , what road would you take ?

I'm lookin' to take the Shadow Hills in. Both sounds and looks sexy (gearlust_heaven.com ). Built sooo well. You can grab any switch or knob and it won't shake, move, rattle or budge even a fraction. It's a rock. High quality hand built and built with a great deal of pride - so wonderful to see gear made to such a high standard. Multiple (3) trannys, Monitoring, Mic pres = Glorious. I choose it blind more than any other summer (that day) although I think they were mostly "new" (not broken in, if that matters). I was only listening (not mixing; very important). Also, I was there for under an hour but I was listening on both the barefoot mm27 and the amazing sounding custom Augspurgers in Skyline NYC's supurb sounding control room. Still, I'll be putting it through the paces at my place and trying a few others before finalizing the deal.

There were a couple of Neve 54(something, I think?) on ebay which looked clean for $10k and $12k. They were recommended by some on this board as sounding very good. I remember someone saying they have a large amount of headroom - 90db gain on the mic amps and a nice eq. I think they are 12 channel / 4 buss... so it's more of a side car. Any console between $4k - $8k is going to be a compromise, whether it's functionality or quality or both. You could look at Amek, trident, studer, soundworkshop, midas, d&r, mci...

http://www.mixmasters.com.au/used/console.htm

Click the camera for pics.......

The MCI JH428 16 channel looks nice as far as condition is concerned $7800
D&R Drayner looks pretty good too $8500

Plus an Ampex/Studer deck --- 16/32/48 channels of DA

(have I confused you enough yet)

Ultimately, each of us alone, has to step up and decide how big of a slut we're going to be.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

Once I was in the same boat like you, I decided for an old small format broadcast-console, it needed some maintenace but it was worth the effort. This board sounds just damn good, I never looked back since then.

Andreas

hey, I'm also in that boat. a bit in the back of the boat: mine isn't finished yet, but I took 4 of the eq in a rack, to play with them in the meantime. Which one did you get?

[Andreas G]

Hi Reptil, I use a siemens c4, I guess this board is not so well known (if you like I can take a picture). Which one do you use?

Andreas

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by u b k

if you just need routing, fx, level, pan, and summing, no preamps/eq's, you can do the chandler, the api, or the tonelux within your budget. of those, the tone of the chandler and the tonelux are gorgeous, the api is nice but not as sweet.

the chandler is what it is, no more no less, but it has a color you can't get anywhere else on the planet, and it's a fine color indeed. the tonelux's sound is not unique, it sounds like a 70's era api2488 console, one of my favorite set of electronics ever. i've got a vintage sidecar and a tonelux rack sitting on top of it, the sidecar sounds fantastic but the tonelux steps on it in all 3 dimensions, which is depressing, because the tonelux is not mine and will be leaving soon .

curse these toys!


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Gregoire.. are you talking about the Soundworkshop?

...funny you mention the Tonelux/API connection..
Ive been running my 16 ch TLX rig as a sidecar to a very clean 2488.
The API sounds good, the TLX has the punchy API vibe but even more open and better [shall I say extended]low end..
everybody on the project has noticed it too ,which is kinda cool

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by danasti

I'm lookin' to take the Shadow Hills in. Both sounds and looks sexy (gearlust_heaven.com ). Built sooo well. You can grab any switch or knob and it won't shake, move, rattle or budge even a fraction. It's a rock. High quality hand built and built with a great deal of pride - so wonderful to see gear made to such a high standard. Multiple (3) trannys, Monitoring, Mic pres = Glorious. I choose it blind more than any other summer (that day) although I think they were mostly "new" (not broken in, if that matters). I was only listening (not mixing; very important). Also, I was there for under an hour but I was listening on both the barefoot mm27 and the amazing sounding custom Augspurgers in Skyline NYC's supurb sounding control room. Still, I'll be putting it through the paces at my place and trying a few others before finalizing the deal.

There were a couple of Neve 54(something, I think?) on ebay which looked clean for $10k and $12k. They were recommended by some on this board as sounding very good. I remember someone saying they have a large amount of headroom - 90db gain on the mic amps and a nice eq. I think they are 12 channel / 4 buss... so it's more of a side car. Any console between $4k - $8k is going to be a compromise, whether it's functionality or quality or both. You could look at Amek, trident, studer, soundworkshop, midas, d&r, mci...

http://www.mixmasters.com.au/used/console.htm

Click the camera for pics.......

The MCI JH428 16 channel looks nice as far as condition is concerned $7800
D&R Drayner looks pretty good too $8500

Plus an Ampex/Studer deck --- 16/32/48 channels of DA

(have I confused you enough yet)

Ultimately, each of us alone, has to step up and decide how big of a slut we're going to be.

The Shadow Hills box is totally fab..if you can get past working with stereo channels only
I had it here for a few days..sounded great!

An MCI type situation looks alright on the outside and sounds tempting to the uninitiated..
but yikes..I'd be extremely weary of what's goin on inside..
my friend "aquired" one last year..
even After suffering through a complete nightmare of a tech and blowing about 4 1/2 G's in the process...still ended up junking the whole project and went with something else.

[Reptil]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

Hi Reptil, I use a siemens c4, I guess this board is not so well known (if you like I can take a picture). Which one do you use?

Andreas

BFE eq, faders and bussamps, Monitora and Ghielmetti routing, NTP and TAB lineamps and a Telefunken masterbus amp, and some special goodies. So, the components are from around the same time, eightties and late seventies.
Because I'll put it together myself, there is some freedom. it's going to be 28 input, 20 busses into 1 master. and all in a small footprint. 1 by 2,5 metres. Microphone preamps I keep seperate in a rack. I have no idea when it will be finished. I'm going to do some music first, on my old crappy but trusty Zeck desk.

I heard good things about the C4, care to post a picture?

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by Reptil

BFE eq, faders and bussamps, Monitora and Ghielmetti routing, NTP and TAB lineamps and a Telefunken masterbus amp, and some special goodies. So, the components are from around the same time, eightties and late seventies.
Because I'll put it together myself, there is some freedom. it's going to be 28 input, 20 busses into 1 master. and all in a small footprint. 1 by 2,5 metres. Microphone preamps I keep seperate in a rack. I have no idea when it will be finished. I'm going to do some music first, on my old crappy but trusty Zeck desk.

I heard good things about the C4, care to post a picture?

Wow Reptil, I'm sure you'll have a pretty nice board when it's finished!
Here's a picture of my ol' siemens c4

[FULL-DUPLEX]

Very nice console Andreas! I hope I will wire up my little beast as soon as possible...

[Reptil]

VERY nice indeed! 16:8:4?

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by Reptil

16:8:4?

It's 20 in 4 (12x mono, 4x stereo, 4x buss)

Originally Posted by FULL-DUPLEX

I hope I will wire up my little beast as soon as possible...

Do it, it's worth

[perun]

Originally Posted by danasti

The MCI JH428 16 channel looks nice as far as condition is concerned $7800
D&R Drayner looks pretty good too $8500

[/I]

Maybe Dayner looks that good, but it sounds like shit! We sold our old Dayner desk for 3.5K Euros... I have some experience with them. CRAP!

So, whatever you do, stay away from D&Rs of this kind... Hahaha, absurd is this was one of the best models!

Try MCI, but it's not the secret that 500 series is the best option from MCI! 400??? I don't know, Jean Michelle Jarre used one, so, it'll probably be good for you, too, hah?

Peace!

[danasti]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

The Shadow Hills box is totally fab..if you can get past working with stereo channels only
I had it here for a few days..sounded great!

Stereo channels only? I was assuming that switch meant you could go between 16 stereo or 30 mono?

I'm really not able to find all that much info on this. Obviously mono channels are important to me but I suppose I could set everything in the DAW to stereo DA pairs but I sure would like to run kick, bass, vocal, etc... out to the Equinox in mono. Darn!

Hmmm??? I don't know if this is a deal breaker or not (yet) but I just wonder why?

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

An MCI type situation looks alright on the outside and sounds tempting to the uninitiated..
but yikes..I'd be extremely weary of what's goin on inside..
my friend "aquired" one last year..
even After suffering through a complete nightmare of a tech and blowing about 4 1/2 G's in the process...still ended up junking the whole project and went with something else.

Yeah! I agree. None of those consoles for me, thanks. Most of those I mentioned have more than a few, quite serious and utterly painful, sonic compromises. On top of that they are used. So, along with that you have the maintanence issue. I also have friends who've wasted plenty of time and diverted their attention away from engineering music to deal with troublesome mixing boards. It's a real bummer for most of them.

[Plush]

UNGLAUBLISCH

[Cojo]

Originally Posted by piccazzo

The price range im considering is 4000 - 8000 USD.

If ya all had to choose , what road would you take ?

Hi.

I was also in the same situation a year ago. I was looking at different summing options but I soon realized that I wanted a console. The choice fell on a second hand Studer that I bought earlier this year and I'm really pleased with it. It has a small footprint, good sound and it's built like a tank.

Good luck whatever your deside on!

/Cojo

[u b k]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Gregoire.. are you talking about the Soundworkshop?

...

The API sounds good, the TLX has the punchy API vibe but even more open and better [shall I say extended]low end..

yeah, the 1280b, my little brown darling. what amazed me is that the sound workshop is in the same league; it's not as sweet, but it's every bit as analog. and i'm beginning to think that a few chip swaps and tranny balancing the inputs will put it so close as to put the 1280 in the 'different, not better or worse' category as far as the channels go. but the summing is small, doesn't hold a candle to the tonelux.

i've lived real close and personal with the tonelux for about a week now, and i've been studying it's tone like jane goodall with her apes, and here's what i've come to understand about its magic: the tonelux has an extremely tight bottom, not an extended one, it actually rolls off and reigns in the uberlows but pushes a narrow bit around 110, resulting in a very chesty and musical low end that appears deeper than it is while preserving headroom, and therefore increasing punch. the top also rolls off gently after 10k, much the way tape does. not a lot, but subtly, enough to wipe out the digital hash over 16k and make everything smooth as silk. there's also a pronounced little dip at 6k which further sweetens the picture, dedigitizes the signal and rounds it a bit. it has the ssl inky blackness in its spaces, but the api's punch in its transients. amazing.

the tonelux is the first piece of kit i've played with that's made me consider selling my nicerizer. but the 2500 has a lot of the same vibe, so for now i'm sticking with the nicer's valvey syrupy goo.

be nice to have both, a solution thrill would doubtless approve of.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by u b k

the tonelux is the first piece of kit i've played with that's made me consider selling my nicerizer. but the 2500 has a lot of the same vibe, so for now i'm sticking with the nicer's valvey syrupy goo.

be nice to have both, a solution thrill would doubtless approve of.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

thumbsup thumbsup


Did you try the TLX EQ's?
I really dig em'.

[yeloocproducer]

Gregoire...

Just found a soundworkshop 1280 for 140 bucks... thinking of summing my outboard delays and verbs (BX20s, R7, 1580 etc.), possibly a couple of synths with this guy, and using my nicerizer 16 for my main channels. I'm guessing the smaller, warmer aspects of the SW will work out fine for this application?

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by yeloocproducer

Gregoire...

Just found a soundworkshop 1280 for 140 bucks... thinking of summing my outboard delays and verbs (BX20s, R7, 1580 etc.), possibly a couple of synths with this guy, and using my nicerizer 16 for my main channels. I'm guessing the smaller, warmer aspects of the SW will work out fine for this application?

Might as well try it..
Honestly I wouldn't be in a hurry to squeze my nice outboard FX's through it though..
I have a 1280[the "Super EQ" one] which i just got out of storage after 12 years and dusted it off.
-10 RCA unbalanced in's..[My Mackie 1642 has more headroom]
Has some vibe,but it really pales to the N-16-Tonelux combo asa far as clarity and punch.

[yeloocproducer]

RB...

Is there more than one version of the 1280? The "super" eq vs. the "not so superish" eq? I hear you though... I was just about to buy a folcrom, but then this guy popped up for a little over $100... and I thought hmm. I'm supposed to go pick it up tomorrow if I want it.

EDIT: Looks like it's a 1280A on further inspection... no green eq knobs, just black ones. Which means it has "super eq" if I'm understanding what I'm reading on the net. It also probably does not have transformers on the mic pre ins... that was a feature of the 1280b.

It does have a meter bridge, though...

[ulysses]

Congratulations for at least starting with the right question. But it's really a question you have to answer for yourself before you can move on to a purchasing decision. Like another fella said, a summing device and a console are two different tools that do different things, and if what you want is one of them, then the other won't meet your needs no matter how nice it is. So the first thing you need to ask yourself is whether or not you like and want to keep the advantages of the DAW - total recall, automation, repeatability. If so, then a console is just going to piss you off to no end. On the other hand, some people just hate mixing with a mouse and will gladly give up the recall ability in exchange for a handful of real faders. That's the crux of the decision right there. There are other considerations, but they're meaningless until you decide for yourself about that issue. Then, you also should consider the additional processing options of the console (built-in EQ, effects sends/returns) vs. the shorter, cleaner signal path of a summing device (even if you want coloration, it doesn't necessarily follow that you want all of the specific colorations the console brings you). Then there's the maintenance aspect of an affordable second-hand console that may be as old as you are. If you're shopping for something big and beautiful for pennies on the dollar, you have to expect some age and some wear - capacitors seem cheap until you need a thousand of them. In summation, there are advantages to both routes, but the single biggest determining factor should be your own workflow style and preferences. Faders or no faders, that is the question.

[piccazzo]

Im really used to mix ITB and i do so well and fast.
An console will probably slow me down more than it can speed up my flow.

So im thinking of going down the summing road and see where it leads.
I`ll think ill borrow a Dangerous 2-buss and play with it over christmas and see if summings really worth it or not..

Anywayz Thnz for all the great responses and feedback.

Merry Christmas n` a happy New Year.


- Kippis -

( meas chears in Finnish )