That guitar sound that I need

[mattyd]

My band and I are recording our new album and this time we've decided to do things a little differently.
We're gonna be recording the guitars ourselves.
Everything will be recorded at 96K and we're gonna send the tracks to Nashville to get mixed.
We've got some good guitars (Gibson Les Paul, Brian May Strat, etc.) but we're gonna be recording through the POD XT Pro.

I know I know, a lotta people probably won't agree (I personally love my POD), but that all aside.... I really need some tips on how we're gonna do this.

I was thinking of getting a great sound with the POD and recording it through a Neve preamp into a digi 002 (I might be able to get an Apogee converter as well).
BUT
Then I'll also record the dry track of the takes so that the mixing engineer really has creative freedom and if he's really not liking the POD sounds then he can always reamp the guitars and chuck a plugin on them or something.

What are your thoughts on this?
Do you think I can just record the POD direct into the 002? Since it does come out as line level, I won't really need a preamp.... although I'm wondering if it might just make it sound better as it is an original 70's Neve.

Can any mixing engineer tell me what you'd look for if someone had to send you stuff?

Look... at this point, anything will be better than the guitars on our last album. But we REALLY wanna go up in levels in a huge way this time.

Thanks a lot guys! You rock!

Matt

[mattyd]

Oh yes... I forgot:

We're a praise and worship band but we don't exactly play hymns if you know what I mean. We're much more contemporary.
In fact, some of the guitar tones I'm looking at trying to achieve would be like those from Blink 182 and Avril Lavigne.
I know that those kinda pop rock guitars are usually just compressed hugely.

So, what kinda processing is gonna be done to the raw guitar tracks to make them sound huge?
Should I double track the guitars?
What should I look for in the raw tracks that would be useful for the mixing engineer?


Wow.... that's a lotta questions but I'm genuinely interested and there's not very many good engineers in South Africa (where I live) that could tell me what I need to know.

P.S. We have to use the 002 because we definately wanna record in Protools. The engineer we're using will be working on Protools.

[seawell]

Matt,
I know you said you like your POD but, I strongly encourage you to record with real amps instead of a POD. A decent amp with a Shure SM57 on it will sound light years better(or even better get a ribbon mic like an AEA R92 or Royer). You would come out cheaper getting a decent amp and recording great tracks yourself instead of having someone else reamp it for you. As far as getting a thick sound, you should definitely double track if you're looking for that modern rock sound.

[Musiclab]

you have the right idea about approach, split the guitar signal into 2 tracks one with the pod and another just the guitar di'd. This way someone can re-amp it for you and the pod track will show them what you are going for. Also this way you can perform with a sound that might inspire you.

[doorknocker]

With all due respect......but I think it doesn't make sense to get good gear (Les Pauls, Strats, Neve preamps, etc) and then stop halfway i.e compromise by using a POD.

The POD can be a good tool to get some extra sounds and I'm no purist but recording a whole album like that will result in a one-dimensional, generic and undynamic sound.

As for recording direct as well, I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving most of the guitar sonics up to the mixer, no matter how great he might be. It's YOUR music so you gotta make DECISIONS. Personally I can't seperate performance from sound meaning that what I play has a lot to do with what sound I choose and vice versa.

Do yourself a favour and use some great amps as well. It's WAY faster and much more satisfying. I agree that it can be frustrating too but whenever I can't get a good guitar sound then I just change amps/mics/rooms or work on the performance/part till it is happening.

You still might want to record an additional DI signal and thus you'd end up with a choice of amp sound or DI for the mixer. Most likely the mixer will use something like AmpFarm to treat your DI guitars and that's another reason why I wouldn't use the POD exclusively: You'd end up with a toss between a printed modeled amp sound and a DI track that will be amp-modeled eventually.

[mattyd]

Seawell - Trust me... I would love to be able to use great amps (we actually own 1 or 2 decent ones) BUT
the problem that we have (along with the rest of the musicians in the world) is the issue of finances.
There is simply no place to record around us. And we just don't have the budget for any more studio time.
The 002, Apogee converters, Neve preamp are all things that I can get from a friend of mine for a minimal price.

But I hear what you saying.... I like amps too

Musiclab - I can get a pretty good guitar sound from the POD but it obviously doesn't sound like those really rad, huge, compressed guitars from Blink or Avril. What kinda processing will be done by the mixing engineer when it comes to guitars.... so I know what to leave for him to do and I don't waste time messing around trying to do something that I can't do?

[foldback]

Originally Posted by mattyd

Seawell - Trust me... I would love to be able to use great amps (we actually own 1 or 2 decent ones) BUT
the problem that we have (along with the rest of the musicians in the world) is the issue of finances.
There is simply no place to record around us. And we just don't have the budget for any more studio time.
The 002, Apogee converters, Neve preamp are all things that I can get from a friend of mine for a minimal price.

But I hear what you saying.... I like amps too

Musiclab - I can get a pretty good guitar sound from the POD but it obviously doesn't sound like those really rad, huge, compressed guitars from Blink or Avril. What kinda processing will be done by the mixing engineer when it comes to guitars.... so I know what to leave for him to do and I don't waste time messing around trying to do something that I can't do?

I don't mean to offend but I think you are dreaming... you don't have the money to take the time to record your tracks better but you have the money to send them to Nashville to have someone else create your guitar sound and mix your album? Reamps are bandaids for emergency use only or maybe creative fattening but that's not the basis for organic rock sounds.

I started recording myself back in the 60s because I didn't have any money to have anyone do anything for me. I've recorded a ton of tracks with Pods and with care they can pass for interesting guitar snippits in songs but nothing compares to a real organic tube amp in a room with a mic in front of it. Better yet, feed the guitar to two different amps and mic them to two separate tracks, that will give your mixing engineer something to work with.

You are setting the stage for what your production sounds like with what you record. If you're short on money then all the more reason to record good sounding tracks in the first place. I don't like cliches but remember "garbage in = garbage out".

Best of luck to you.

[mattyd]

Ya... I hear what you saying.

The mixer in Nashville is doing it for us at a really good price.

Hmmm... maybe I might be able to get some studio time. It'll be in less than ideal situations. I've been able to get decent miked amp sounds there before though.

I don't think I'll be able to do it with all the tracks.

I can get a Vox AC30 (celestion), a Fender HotRod Deluxe, and maybe an Orange amp (I'd have to get my other guitar bud to check on that).

Mics aren't really a problem. I can get plenty of those.

Do you think the Fender will be good for Blinky type driving sounds?

Unfortunately, I won't be able to get any good high gain amps for our heavier tracks. Might just have to use the POD for those.

Once again... it's all down to budget.

But thanks for the advice guys! Really appreciate it.

[djui5]

For half the price of that POD, you could get some wood and build an enclosure to record your amp in...

[jmikeperkins]

I agree that you are much better off recording the best tube amp you can find and if you get access to a Neve mic pre USE IT as that will help a lot even with an inexpensive mic. I am not sure what you plan to do with your music after you record it, but if If you are going to shop it to music industry people for possible use in a movie, TV program, stock music library, or even for an artist deal, using a POD for your primary guitar sounds will likely hurt you as that sound screams "demo" and not "finished master." Having said that, it all depends on the type of music you are making. If your stuff is primarily electronic dance music, or something like that and the guitar is not featured up front, then it probably does matter if you use a POD or mic an amp. But if your stuff is guitar based rock or pop, then you really need to mic an amp.

Two other things which are very important in recording electric guitar for rock or pop. The first is compression. Most all of the guitar sounds you hear on record have been compressed. It is possible to compress the guitar later after you record it, but most people would use at least some compressor up front after the mic pre and before going to the recorder (and maybe more later). There are a million different compressors out there, some great, some not. If you are going to borrow the Neve and a mic, ask if you can borrow a compressor to use. If not, it can be done later, just make sure you don't overload the digital recorder when tracking which is very easy to do recording uncompressed electric guitar. The other thing which can be important, is using a 2nd mic as a room mic. Again, it depends on music style and the type and size of the room you are recording in, but most producers will use a 2nd mic farther away to pick up "room sounds" to mix in with the primary mic sound to make your guitar sound bigger. Also, be sure your strings are fresh as this can make a big difference in the sound. Finally, you need to experiment with different guitars and with mic placement and most important, USE YOUR EARS to find what sounds best. Have fun!

J. Mike Perkins
jmikeperkins.com

[Reag1502]

my opinion of the PODS is, it will get you a good to desent guitar tone faster than miking up a amp, but in the end with a little work the real amp miced up will sound better. When I first started recording the only thing I used was a POD, and now all I use is real amps. There is NO comparison. My amps smoke the POD EVERYTIME!

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by jmikeperkins

. . . The first is compression. Most all of the guitar sounds you hear on record have been compressed. . .

J. Mike Perkins
jmikeperkins.com

I agree with you on all your points but I have to respectfully disagree on the compression issue. I never compress electric guitars, because the amp does that for me, you can't get a better compressor for guitar than a tube amp.

Back to the thread:
As to re-amping, I am probably biased because I offer exactly that service for exactly this situation and I am even working on a box that solves some of the problems involved with re-amping (I call it Real-amping), but in Matt's situation re-amping is about all he can do to stay within budget. And if you have experienced people and great gear working on your sound with you, there is nothing wrong with it, as long as you get the feel recorded that you are going for.

[Musiclab]

My last piece of advice is, since your sending your tracks nashville, send them to Michael Wagner first for reamping, he certainly knows a thing or two about sound, and great guitar sounds.

[PhilRanger]

The POD XT has a USB connection for digitl sound out that would avoid a DA stage, a preamp and a AD stage. In your situation, I'd go for a DI track + the USB out, so in the mix you have 2 "pure" signals to work from. If in the mix you feel the NEVE preamp, or Germanium, or whatever would help, then it can at least be undone...

[rcm]

One more voice chiming in to say if you music is important, and you want the sounds you say you do, use real amps and not the Pod. Find a way to do it. Dose some one you know have a shop where you could set up your gear in their storage room after hours or a school you could get into. Really the Pod is just awful.

I often turn down mixing jobs if I find out the guitars were done with a Pod.

Not sure what Michael M's rates are for his service, but if you are going the direct route, sending it to him sounds like a really really good idea.

[5down1up]

When your able to get the desired sounds using a pod, use it !

Getting that monster sound, that took some others years&years of trying is not really doable by renting some gear/amps you have never used before.

So if you know the pod, i think the reamping idea is a good one.
That way you can focus on the performances during the recordings.

I wouldnt start to learn recording real amps during the making of a record.

Imho, getting good results depends ONLY on the experience of the people doing it. Using a pod or not ? Its all up to you

Good luck

[BlueRadio]

Putting a Les Paul through a POD is like putting a U47 through a Behringer Ultragain mic pre. ...and I don't mean this to sound condescending or mean in ANY way...but...
PODS are horrible. Please rent, buy, or steal a nice head/cab. A Soldano, Mesa, maybe a nice Fender Twin with a Big Muff pedal.

I know, I'm the 'new guy jerk' of gearslutz. Somebody shoot me.

[foldback]

I needed isolation and volume reduction for some electric guitar tracking with a 100 watt Boogie.

I had a raw 1968 Celestion 12" Greenback speaker sitting on the shelf. For an enclosure I went to a local car audio shop and bought an empty sub woofer enclosure (a sealed box, not ported, with almost two cubic feet of air space), this enclosure was made out of 1" high density composite board. I bought a mounting kit and steel grill at the car audio shop also. The cabinet, grill and mounting hardware was under 50 bucks. It took less than an hour to install the Celestion guitar speaker in the sub cabinet, it sounded great, classic British 1x12 sealed box.

I put this newly assembled guitar speaker inside a large double wall HP laser printer carton I pulled from the dumpster behind CompUSA. I mic'd it with an SM-57 and an MXL 2001 LDC. After a little experimenting I added in some carefully placed towels around the speaker to kill some reflections in the "iso box". Then I led the wires out of the carton, folded her shut and sealed the whole thing up with packing tape. Now the fun began, playing and recording.

The old Celestion is a low power speaker so we had to be careful not to blow it with the 100 watt Boogie head. We got some great recorded tones with this cardboard isolation chamber. It worked so well I've kept it together and still occasionally use it (the carton is now stashed in a closet with tie-lines running into the control room of my studio).

It did not cost much to make and it did not take much time or brains to assemble. The cardboard box does not hold in all the sound but it substantially reduces the overall SPL in the room. Setting the carton on a 2" slab of roadcase foam decouples it from the floor nicely. For more isolation I've put the HP carton inside a Leslie roadcase. This setup also provides good isloation on the guitar tracks if you're recording with drums in the same room.

Brute force and ingenuity can be a substitute for funds. I am a huge advocate of experimenting.

[GearHunter]

Well, there isn't much more anti-pod to say that hasn't already been expressed. Please please please at least record a clean DI track to be reamp'd later.

If you are not in a space where you can mic up an amp, there are a couple ways to skin a cat without resorting the Pod-awful sound (and listen, I'm a guitar-player and I use The Pod now and then to layer-in some texture, but it is absolutely no comparison to my Fender, Top Hat or even my Peavey Classic 30).

There are load-boxes, amp simulators and speaker simulators...even silent speaker-chambers. Check out these links:

Motherload

PalmerGear

Demeter: click on products, then speaker cabs and find the SSC-1, Silent Speaker Chamber

[PhilRanger]

I can understand anti-pod feelings. But I've heard so many miced amps sound way worse than a pod, I've got to warn that an amp isnt an instant trialless magic solution. Especially considering it is South Africa, not Nashville, NYC or LA...

You can get very decent from a DI track, but can't from a bad miced amp track. Bad amp/bad miced? Can fix a little, but will always be so-so.

What about splitting your signal to DI/POD/amp? I guess for once most people here would agree on that? (except you may need a good splitter)

[Todd24]

Knocking the Pods tone is silly. If you want more "room" in the sound afterwords (less forward) you can always run it out to damn near any amp, and mic that. Certain parts sound better miced, but alot of stuff sound very forward and great direct through L6 stuff.

It is said that much of the early Wheezer is Pod tones. If thats true it speakes for itself. I get tones I really like out of a Vetta direct. Again some times it is better to mic though.

[nadumr]

Early Weezer was 1994. I don't think it involved any digital, amp simulation.

Furthermore, in 2001 the Green Album was said to have featured mostly Pod and, IMHO, the guitar tones really suck on that record.

Just my 2 cents
ar

Originally Posted by Todd24

Knocking the Pods tone is silly. If you want more "room" in the sound afterwords (less forward) you can always run it out to damn near any amp, and mic that. Certain parts sound better miced, but alot of stuff sound very forward and great direct through L6 stuff.

It is said that much of the early Wheezer is Pod tones. If thats true it speakes for itself. I get tones I really like out of a Vetta direct. Again some times it is better to mic though.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by foldback

Brute force and ingenuity can be a substitute for funds. I am a huge advocate of experimenting.

a brilliant post with an ending worthy of a fridge magnet.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Gunter]

Originally Posted by GearHunter

There are load-boxes, amp simulators and speaker simulators...even silent speaker-chambers. Check out these links:

Motherload

PalmerGear

Demeter: click on products, then speaker cabs and find the SSC-1, Silent Speaker Chamber

Great advice... - Palmer PDI-03 supplementary sheet

I got it and it's a great piece of gear!

For "me" the best sounding speaker simulator! IMHO

[mattyd]

Thanks for all the advice so far guys.

At this point I'm definately gonna go with a D.I.'d guitar and the POD. However, wherever possible, I will be using either the Vox AC30 or the Fender Hotrod Deluxe. I might see if I can get some decent pedals as well (I know a guy at the guitar shop - might be able to rent me some for cheap).

For a lot of stuff we play, the Vox and Fender will do the job but we do want some heavier tones as well (we have some very pop punk type songs).
Can anyone suggest a way to achieve that kinda tone with these amps?

Tube Screamers? Or are those more for the classic bluesy type stuff.

Basically, I'm not worried at all about our clean tones (I absolutely LOVE the clean tones our guitarists get). I'm just a bit concerned about the more drivey type stuff.

When tracking and doubling tracks, I'm guessing it's not the best idea to have the most distorted sounds I can get. I've found that as soon as you start double tracking those sounds it just becomes mud at the end with no definition.
So just to check:
Do you think I should have less distorted sounds and just rather layer them? I've found that it's actually more the bass guitar that keeps it drivey.

Oh ya... and to confirm, I will be using the Neve pres with the Apogee converter. And I have plenty of SM57's.

Thanks again for the great advice you guys give!

[stevetgn]

Great guitar tones & a Pod are a total contradiction in terms!

You need a well mic'ed good 'ol valve amp. I'm sorry if the truth hurts but its a fact not an opinion! Even if you are after that modern hard rock processed scooped mid sound (that the pod thinks it does so well), beg ,steal or borrow a mesa boogie dual rec or something. You'll never get that full three dimensional depth to your sound with a pod. Great for quickly putting down a guide track but not the final take.

[cortisol]

So why the Neve pres and the sm57's if you are just going to DI + POD it?

If you really want guitar tracks worth a damn then get your guitars set up and tuned to one tuner. Listen to the amp sounds you are going for and compare and adjust the source.

Without a doubt, a good amp has much better tone than a POD. They are impressive as a tool for a top 40 covers band guitarist for live but under the scrutiny of the recording microscope they lack TONE. The POD is a thing of convenience. It is easy to accept the POD because of this and then forget that the amp sounded better...

Miking a guitar amp isn't rocket science. I am positive you could look up how to place an SM57 on gearslutz. It really is worth the bother because that for the most part is what these emluators are trying to copy!

Peace,
cortisol

[GearHunter]

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