Analogue Console Mix Recall Rates

[stevep]

What are the average rates for recalls when using a console and outboard gear.


I'm trying to come up with a policy thats fair for my customers and for me




Thanks,


steve

[djui5]

Offer a single recall for free, but after that offer an hourly rate, usually 75% of your normal rate is good I think, but some charge full rate for everything.

[robmix]

half your day rate is pretty standard.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by djui5

Offer a single recall for free,.

Even for a full record....after the band approves the mixes ?


it seams like some would take advantage of that and we would be in the studio working for free remixing 12 songs








peace.

[Musiclab]

First off Wow you have a beautiful place, Did that console come from Greene Street in NYC? What is the recall for? Is it because they don't like something you've done and do you feel like you got it wrong? If I feel like I got the mix wrong I'll work something out, but if it's changes they want to make, they pay the fare. I can get back to a high input /track count mix in around 2 hours. Another thing I will try to do is not rip the mix down at the end of the session. Unless it's totally insane here and then I'll tell them ahead of time, I can usually leave the mix up for a few hours the next day, so if they call me in the morning they can make some changes. If its minor and doesnt take too long it'll be on me, but if not it's on the clock straight time.
BTW did I tell you you have a beautiful place?

[djui5]

Originally Posted by stevep

Even for a full record....after the band approves the mixes ?
peace.

No After they've approved the mixes you should bill them.

[stevep]

Hi Lou, Thank you !

My desk didn't come from Green St. It came from MIT in Tokyo then lived for a few years in Minneapolis With ToodF.
It has been allot of work to bring back to life But After many months of work its sounding amazing ! I'm still working on a few things.........
Now in the process of a total recap with the caps they use on the 9098

I would love to find some of the parts from the old Green St desk




As far as the Recall on mixes,

Musiclab . Is it because they don't like something you've done and do you feel like you got it wrong? If I feel like I got the mix wrong I'll work something out, but if it's changes they want to make, they pay the fare

no i am just trying to come up with a fair policy for the studio


When i do a "Real Mix" i leave it up on the desk until i get approval even if it takes me a few days to get it to where the client wants, so i dont have a problem with those kind of mixes, they are usually so complex that a recall probably wouldn't happen anyway. and the budget will allow the needed time to get it right



Then there are the bands who want to mix all the songs in one day or 2 days, So those mixes are already torn down before we start the next song, (I hate to work that way) And those are the bands without a budget


So.... It looks like i will need 2 policies


And again Lou, Thanks for the kind words

[u b k]

Originally Posted by stevep

Then there are the bands who want to mix all the songs in one day or 2 days, So those mixes are already torn down before we start the next song, (I hate to work that way) And those are the bands without a budget.

but what they lack in budget, they make up for with nitpicking!


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by u b i k

but what they lack in budget, they make up for with nitpicking!


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Yes !

[nlc201]

Originally Posted by stevep

Then there are the bands who want to mix all the songs in one day or 2 days, So those mixes are already torn down before we start the next song\

I love to work that way! Mixes are more lively and dynamic since their based on first impressions. Of course there are the recall requests.... a fact of life. But remember, you are obviously talented and experienced at what you do, otherwise people would probably not be coming back to you time and time again and PAY you to do it. In the end, mixes are totally subjective. It sounds like you're giving people ample opportunity to review the mixes in most cases. If they approve and later change their minds, that's their issue! That doesen't mean the mixes suck or you OWE them a recall. It means that they didn't have their head on straight enough to give you the proper feedback when the mix was up and you were tweaking. This doesen't mean that everything is screwed for all eternity either. A recall isn't a big deal but there's no reason that you should not be fully compensated for your efforts. I'd say simply charge them for the time taken to do the recall (this includes recalling the board AND making tweaks with the client). Nothing underhanded or shady. Just a simple payment for a service type scenario. If the mix takes 2 hours to recall properly, then they should pay for it. Analog gear was built for sound, not instant recall. If they want to mix completely ITB with plugs and have it sound less than stellar but have instant recall, that's their perogative. You should not have to pay because of the setup times involving anlog equipment. It's part of the deal. And in terms of bands on budgets, that's the reality of being on a budget!!! That means you don't have the luxury of sitting there for endless hours tweaking. If they approved it initially (which is most likely the case), it falls on them to make the hard decisions about what their ideal is versus what they're willing to pay.

It's funny, it's always the clients and bands I do "favors" for (IE, cheap deals) that end up tweaking endlessly and driving me nuts (and testing my patience as a friend). The clients with the mula to spend whatever time they want usually approve of my work quickly. Bottom line is that everyone is happy with the results but I just wish that endless tweakers would pay for all that time they spend in the studio because they can't make up their damn mind. But, I invited them there so I have no right to complain.......I'm a dumbass...but at least I charge to give my services as one now...

[stevep]

nlc201 . It's funny, it's always the clients and bands I do "favors" for (IE, cheap deals) that end up tweaking endlessly and driving me nuts (and testing my patience as a friend). The clients with the mula to spend whatever time they want usually approve of my work quickly.

So True

I had a friend many years ago that would never finish a song....... I finally had to start charging him so we could get something done... it was only like 10 dollars an hour and I'm sure i gave him a few free hours every session But it worked and we finished the record !

nlc201 . A recall isn't a big deal but there's no reason that you should not be fully compensated for your efforts. I'd say simply charge them for the time taken to do the recall (this includes recalling the board AND making tweaks with the client). Nothing underhanded or shady. Just a simple payment for a service type scenario. If the mix takes 2 hours to recall properly, then they should pay for it.

True ! This is basically what i have been doing



What most band guys dont understand is if they want a minor change in a mix they think that everything else will be the same and all that will change is that small volume adjustment

When actually the whole mix will be different when compared to the first one weather better or worse it will be different

Its just the way this old analogue gear works



Personally i would rather start over than do a total recall , maybe keeping the basic mutes and fades but redoing all the important rides





Thanks to all for the input, you guys are always a big help

[u b k]

Originally Posted by stevep

What most band guys dont understand is if they want a minor change in a mix they think that everything else will be the same and all that will change is that small volume adjustment.

indeed, the notion that every single thing affects every other single thing is lost on people. this is especially true when i'm milking that mix comp for all the magic its knee has to offer; the interplay of the elements shifts. it's a house of cards in there!

as for old analog gear, my setup is such that even when nothing is physically changed, things sound different the next day. i swear the relative humidity changes the level of the vox...


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by stevep

Hi Lou, Thank you !

My desk didn't come from Green St. It came from MIT in Tokyo then lived for a few years in Minneapolis With ToodF.
It has been allot of work to bring back to life But After many months of work its sounding amazing ! I'm still working on a few things.........
Now in the process of a total recap with the caps they use on the 9098

I would love to find some of the parts from the old Green St desk




As far as the Recall on mixes,



no i am just trying to come up with a fair policy for the studio


When i do a "Real Mix" i leave it up on the desk until i get approval even if it takes me a few days to get it to where the client wants, so i dont have a problem with those kind of mixes, they are usually so complex that a recall probably wouldn't happen anyway. and the budget will allow the needed time to get it right



Then there are the bands who want to mix all the songs in one day or 2 days, So those mixes are already torn down before we start the next song, (I hate to work that way) And those are the bands without a budget


So.... It looks like i will need 2 policies


And again Lou, Thanks for the kind words

Well when you've left your console up for days and they want a recall after that they should pay your rate, it's one thing if you did something wrong, it's another entirely
if they have a change of heart. As far as the budget mixes where you're doing an album a day, the first thing is to try and get them out of that bad idea, you have a serious professional studio and what leaves your place reflects on you. If they can't or won't, then they have to pay the fare for a recall, you're probably giving them a break on the time cause you know they don't have any money, I think your policy should be recalls are on the client period. If you want to, charge them a discount for the time it takes to get back to the mix and then full rate for the changes. Unless you're independantly wealthy and a bit of a philanthropist, you have to pay to keep up that beautiful room, if for one second I felt like I could do something better than I did I'll redo it, on my dime. But when a client want's a change because they want a change
why is it supposed to be your problem? And if a client goes home after mixing an entire album in one day and realizes that it does'nt sound like a record, why is it that you're supposed to take a hit for that? You should set a studio policy to protect your business, and then if you wan't to help someone out at your own discretion you can.
Routinely I'll knock alittle off the bill to help my clients out, but thats at my discretion.

The same goes for data backup, I remember talking to someone who owned a studio complaining that he had all kinds of drives with his clients projects stored all over the place. He complained that his clients didn't want to buy a drive and didn't wan't to pay for backup time, that to me is completely insane.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by stevep

So True

I had a friend many years ago that would never finish a song....... I finally had to start charging him so we could get something done... it was only like 10 dollars an hour and I'm sure i gave him a few free hours every session But it worked and we finished the record !




True ! This is basically what i have been doing



What most band guys dont understand is if they want a minor change in a mix they think that everything else will be the same and all that will change is that small volume adjustment

When actually the whole mix will be different when compared to the first one weather better or worse it will be different

Its just the way this old analogue gear works



Personally i would rather start over than do a total recall , maybe keeping the basic mutes and fades but redoing all the important rides





Thanks to all for the input, you guys are always a big help

Jimmy Bralower complains that this happens even in Pro Tools. Usually my mixes are high input and have alot of rides. So I'll do whatever needs to be done depending on what I'm hearing that day. The most interesting thing I find is the most recalls happen when my clients insist on mixing

[justbrian]

Depends on how I bid the project. If I bid it per song or per project, I'll typically do a recall for free (and assume I may have to when setting the rate). If I've bid the project on an hourly or daily, it's the same rate throughout.

The biggest thing I've found lately, with so many bands having worked "in the box" in the past, that I need to carefully explain what approving a mix (and subsequently recalling it if they change their minds) means in an analog console environment. tutt

[lucey]

Originally Posted by stevep

Personally i would rather start over than do a total recall , maybe keeping the basic mutes and fades but redoing all the important rides

"why would you want to recall a mix you didnt like?" - D Lanois, IIRC

[stevep]

Originally Posted by lucey

"why would you want to recall a mix you didnt like?" - D Lanois, IIRC

Just think of all the time saved and no recall sheets to lose



Thanks again for all the input ,