Neumann CMV563?

[HABBER]

Hey everyone!!

Been looking through these posts and I am blown away at the knowledge you all have on gear.

I've been convinced by you all that a Nuemann CMV563 is the way to go for the money. The one that I am looking at is all original with an M7 and M55 capsule and looks to be in great shape. The only thing is the output transformer has been replaced by oliver at funkenkwerk with a TAB telefunken output transformer. The owner says the mic sounds punchier and smoother now. Is this something I should stay away from and look for a more original deal or is this something standard with these mics and should be o.k.

Please help. I don't want to buy a dud!!!!!


Thanks in advance guys.

[TanTan]

the output transformer is an important part of the mic (or any other gear using transformer) sound, for example a Neve will never sound like a Neve with a different output transformer, there is no standard in transformer design or material, but it doesn't necessarily have to bother you, it can sound better or worse than the original, it's a matter of taste but it's not what the mic was designed to sound like if that's what you are after

[Peter Weihe]

Originally Posted by TanTan

the output transformer is an important part of the mic (or any other gear using transformer) sound, for example a Neve will never sound like a Neve with a different output transformer, there is no standard in transformer design or material, but it doesn't necessarily have to bother you, it can sound better or worse than the original, it's a matter of taste but it's not what the mic was designed to sound like if that's what you are after

I have two CMV 563 with Olivers output transformers and they do sound much better to my ears than before.
The mics were built in the former GDR, the eastern part of Germany during the cold war and I have been told that they did not always have the proper material for buildings the transformers up to specs. So the quality can differ greatly and very often the original transformers do not match the specs.
Oliver's transformers are built to the original Neumann specifications with the original material and therefore the CMV 563 equipped with his tranny will probably sound much more like it was originally planned than the ones with the GDR tranny.

Best Peter

You are lucky to get one which has already been equipped with the TAB transformer.

[matucha]

This transformer changes the sound of the mic, but many users stated that it is good change. I'd rather pick that mic with oliver's transformer instead of an unknown-condition one right off the e-bay. Microtech Gefell also chose it for UM75 and that isn't bad/cheap mic at all.

The most important is if the mic suits you, so try it before making any decisions. And good luck.

[danasti]

If Oliver put in one of his tranformers it's either as good or better than the original.

I think that for almost any mic with an original M7 capsule the sale should be contingent on it being inspected by a qualified third party. Ask the seller if a known and respected mic specialist can look at it before final payment. They'll do it if they are confident in what they are selling. It's a buffer and protects both buyer and seller. The seller too, because in 6 months the buyer can't say, "well I think it might have been bad when I bought it."

When is the last time someone qualified took a look at the capsule?

I almost bought a CMV563/m7/m9/m55 a while ago and had a thread on here which yeilded a bunch of great info and commentary.
CMV563 on ebay.. what's your opinion?

Also search for "CMV563" (tons on it):
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/searc...archid=2698241

General concensus is that it's a very good value and fairly useful. If you get a good quality and good sounding M7 then you have a good chance at this being a fantastic sounding microphone.

Originally Posted by HABBER

Hey everyone!!

Been looking through these posts and I am blown away at the knowledge you all have on gear.

I've been convinced by you all that a Nuemann CMV563 is the way to go for the money. The one that I am looking at is all original with an M7 and M55 capsule and looks to be in great shape. The only thing is the output transformer has been replaced by oliver at funkenkwerk with a TAB telefunken output transformer. The owner says the mic sounds punchier and smoother now. Is this something I should stay away from and look for a more original deal or is this something standard with these mics and should be o.k.

Please help. I don't want to buy a dud!!!!!


Thanks in advance guys.

[Peter Weihe]

Originally Posted by carloff

I had happines my CMV got old berlin transformer, from 50ies -from first one thousand CMVs and is definitly better than olivers one..

Did you compare the original transformer and Oliver's in the same mic with the same capsule?
"Definately better" sounds like a conclusion you have drawn after serious personal testing.
Several microphone collectors and experienced engineers have the opposite opinion after trying both the original and Oliver's transformers in the same body and they did so with at least 6 mics that I know of.

Best Peter

[ronzie]

Today 06:04 PM carloff wrote:
as peter drefahl wrote me:Talking about vintage microphones, many things are discussed on the web.
Partly the information is reliable, but in many cases its bare philosophy.
In fact, each vintage microphone has its specific issues, sometimes even
within the same series. There's no "roundup" solution which will make
any 563 or U47 better. And sometimes, original components even perform
better than any available replacement...About transformers in general:
They're discussed a lot, but brillant audio transformers have been made for decades.
The transformer may cause a problem sometimes, but a change doesn't mean an improvement in general.
If it's good, it's good - and should be left then...
I had happines my CMV got old berlin transformer, from 50ies -from first one thousand CMVs and is definitly better than olivers one..

Carloff, YOUR one of the IDIOTS giving false information on the web. From past posts regarding CMV'S, I'd be surprised to find you know which end of the mic to use, or do you? Continue to delude yourself and others that you know what you speak of, but some of us can weed out your bloviating bullshit. And you know the Berlin x-former is better than Oliver's because........???

[ronzie]

I was in such disbelief, I forgot to sign my last post.

Ron Allaire, Skyline

[HABBER]

Thank-you for your passionate response. I was hoping to hear what you guys are saying. Reason being, if I got an original the first thing I would do is ask Bill Bradley to run through it. He has already told me that the wires and certain things in the old CMV's are just plain old dried out and need to be replaced with better things.

The transformer freaked me out, but felt that I would maby replace it anyway if Bill told me it should be done. Since you all hold Oliver in high regards, I trust that he has made the mic the best it could be with out compromising anything.

My point is, I think I'll take a chance. I feel that at the end of the day the mic won't suck.

Thank-you for all the replies, your help was very very VERY helpfull

[carloff]

deleted: sorry my post was misleading ....

[ronzie]

ronzie: YOU ARE an IDIOT

So what's new?

.....you didn´t notice one thing:
I wrote there "as peter drefahl wrote"-

Yes I did notice. And I also noticed...

I have nothing against Tab x former.But more..I wanted to have it in my CMV-- if will help to sound.I personally has no posibillity to try it

And I also noticed this:

I had happines my CMV got old berlin transformer, from 50ies -from first one thousand CMVs and is definitly better than olivers one..

There's the problem.

ARE YOU LETTERLESS?

No, I lettered in Hockey

Do you want to say all the vintage mics are the same?

I'd like to, but that would be false.

I´m not such big expert about vintage german mics ..

That's obvious.

..YOU ARE?WHY?BECAUSE OF YOUR BIG MOUTH?

I'm no expert. But I have a working knowledge of all types of transducers from design philosophy, uses, interfacing and to the whole system at large. It's part and parcel to my experiences and my business.

you are showing yourself here as dumb nothing more ..

Quiet the contrary.

solve your own private problems which get you agressive and don´t attack people what you don´t know at all ..

Your right (not about private problems). I don't know you personally. But I know your type. And you normally reside unsuspectingly in these type of forums or behind the counter of some nameless retail outfit misinforming the uninitiated.

and one thing yet :I had more cmvs in hands than you ever seen...we got in Czech national radio at about 300 pieces..I noticed you own only one gefells mic - UM 57 ..so what are you talking

Good for you. Hmm.. I've most likely seen more Chevy Corvettes than you. So I guess I'll go onto one the Vette forums and tell everybody how great the old carborator is compared to the new one even though I've never personally made a comparison. Yeah that's what i'll do!

sorry but it´s totally under my level to even communicate this way with this kind of grotesque and arogant person as you showed me yourself with your post...
here is a lot of intelligent reasonable people with respect to others ...I´m affraid you are not one of them ...we should "weed out" this kind of charging manners from respectable forum
I´m sorry about it..and....about you
chill out for next...

What YOUR espousing is "grotesque". You spew falsehoods and opinions about a respectable OEM's product that YOU'VE never tried, based on the musings of said OEM's business competitor. Where's the disconnect, Carloff?

Ron Allaire, Skyline

[matucha]

please keep it more informative this is heading nowhere

[danasti]

Originally Posted by carloff

The transformer may cause a problem sometimes, but a change doesn't mean an improvement in general.
If it's good, it's good - and should be left then...
I had happines my CMV got old berlin transformer, from 50ies -from first one thousand CMVs and is definitly better than olivers one..

I can't imagine Peter saying, "it's definetely better than Oliver's one"...

There is no doubt that they will be different but "better" is completely subjective. Better would mean that particular transformer and not every single Berlin transformer in existence. Even when they were brand new those transformers varied from eachother and they are now 50 years old. How many are actually functioning up to original specification?

Regardless, the transformer was replaced and Oliver's transformer is up to, or exceeding, original specifications.

Everything I've ever heard that Oliver has touched sounded fantastic, in my own subjective opinion of course.

http://www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id2.html

http://www.tab-funkenwerk.com/index.html

[carloff]

deleted: sorry my post was misleading ....

[johnwy]

Originally Posted by matucha

please keep it more informative this is heading nowhere

Actually, this IS informative, 'cause Ronzie (as Peter and others) have posed the question as to what basis is to Carloff's claim that he "had happines my CMV got old berlin transformer, from 50ies -from first one thousand CMVs and is definitly better than olivers one.." So, again, riddle me this: You hear without hearing, yet you can say Yours is better than His. How so?

......so pass the popcorn and toss me a beer.


B.T.W. I lettered in strip bars, and my team won the championship for the thursday nite bowling league.

[johnwy]

..I will erase my whole post about it..altough I thought could be interesting for people to know what wrote me one of most respectable experts about the matter...but dont wanna argue more with some priggish downer...

oh I get it.....its embarrasing for you.. So you delete your statement where you say one transformer is better than the other EVEN THOUGH you never heard one of the transformers.

lame

[carloff]

deleted: sorry my post was misleading ....

[johnwy]

Today 06:04 PM carloff wrote:
as peter drefahl wrote me:Talking about vintage microphones, many things are discussed on the web.
Partly the information is reliable, but in many cases its bare philosophy.
In fact, each vintage microphone has its specific issues, sometimes even
within the same series. There's no "roundup" solution which will make
any 563 or U47 better. And sometimes, original components even perform
better than any available replacement...About transformers in general:
They're discussed a lot, but brillant audio transformers have been made for decades.
The transformer may cause a problem sometimes, but a change doesn't mean an improvement in general.
If it's good, it's good - and should be left then...
I had happines my CMV got old berlin transformer, from 50ies -from first one thousand CMVs and is definitly better than olivers one..

I think the last line (which has been bold faced and italisized) says it all.

As Udo Dirkschnieder once said "You got'cher balls to the wall.....MAN !

[carloff]

deleted: sorry my post was misleading ....

[matucha]

Originally Posted by johnwy

Actually, this IS informative, 'cause Ronzie (as Peter and others) have posed the question as to what basis is to Carloff's claim that he "had happines my CMV got old berlin transformer, from 50ies -from first one thousand CMVs and is definitly better than olivers one.." So, again, riddle me this: You hear without hearing, yet you can say Yours is better than His. How so?

......so pass the popcorn and toss me a beer.


B.T.W. I lettered in strip bars, and my team won the championship for the thursday nite bowling league.

It is as informative as a bully scene from stupid teen movie (now I'm talking to both sides). So please get back to theme without personal insults or... or... or.... well... ehm... I'm gonna call some moderators you know?

[ronzie]

Habber, if you are unfortunatly still with us, I apologize profusely. Here's MY version of the "scoop":

The cmv563 and um-57 were East German Neumanns made by Gefell, in Gefell. They were intended mainly for broadcast. The m-7 capsule is a classic among classics. The circuit DESIGN is somewhat of a compromise to rid the mic of interference from transmitting stations, which were unusually close to the broadcast origin. This "compromise" goes hand in hand with and because of the limits of the original X-formers "bandwith limit" to once again aid in keeping spurious "racket" out of the mic. It was designed with this in mind. Not for what people want to use it for in full freq. audio 2006. The beef with Carloff centers around the fact that he states the original is better even though he never himself, heard Oliver's Tab/Funkenwerk x-formers. This may be fine for Carloff, but it's misleading. The mic will never be a U-47 even though people say it's a poor man's version. You have to take the mic for what it is and determine for yourself, if it's good for you.

Ron Allaire, Skyline

[carloff]

deleted: sorry my post was misleading ....

[thejook]

You either have to hear one personally or get it from a source (that you trust) that checks it out and gives it a clean bill of health.

Be prepared to pay WAY more than you see on eBay for this. Don't buy a vintage mic without hearing it. Don't. Ever.

I got lucky when I bought my CMV, but it turned out to be from a brilliant mic tech that just happens to be a little less known at this point.

The point is this: you can either buy one off eBay for whatever price it's going for now, spend money sending it to Bill Bradley or Klaus Heyne or whoever (if they even have the time), spend time waiting for it, and in the end wind up driving your costs up even more than if you had just called up Mike at Vintage King and said, "Mike, you got a CMV that's just *the ONE?*" Then you get (most likely) a much better mic right off the bat and you get to send it back if you don't agree.

[matucha]

If you buy mic in a not-so-good condition, you should be prepared to spend almost 700euro ~ $900 on repairs. It seems it really doesn't matter if your mic is half-broken or just a bit out of spec. Because once they work on it, they ask for almost the same money ;\. For ex. I had possibility to either have the capsule reskined or exchanged for a new one with the only difference in speed of the process!!!
Because this particular M7 was not in the best condition I chose a swap. The price was the same 290e for the material and 150e for the work.

So by using some math - unknown (unimportant?) condition CMV563+M7 repaired (in europe) will cost you 1500-2000e ($1900-$2500), maybe a bit less if you find a good deal. Vintage king sells them for $2750 as far as I know, so you can spare some money, but not much and it is not for sure.


Unrepaired CMVs and UM57 sound interesting, but with many problems mostly in HF area. Well it is mostly various types of distortion that puts the sound down. Softer sounds get through nicely, but put it in front of screamer and you're going to have hard time using what goes out of that tuchel connector...

I'm still waiting for mine to be repaired, but in a week or so I (and mr. carloff too) should be able to report on that.

[Frost]

if you dont want it, send me the contact info. I would like another cmv.

Frost

[Rader Ranch]

Regardless of whatever relationship you have with Bill Bradley, I would strongly suggest you go to Klaus Heyne here in the states, or Peter Drefahl if you're in Europe, for mic evaluation and reconditioning per original spec (FYI I am a happy customer with one of Oliver Archut's xformers in my 563). There was also another guy with a good rep mentioned in another CMV thread (i think Carloff's thread????) whose name is currently escaping me. IMO, the point of having a mic like this is having a great mic with some history/vibe to the sound and design, not just a pretty shell with someone's latest parts, capsules and P/S's...there are too many choices with new mics that would equal or better your value at that point.

[carloff]

his name is andreas grosser
www.oldgermanmicrophones.com

[HABBER]

Thanks Carloff and everyone, I'll check it out.

[oliver archut]

Hello Guys,

first of all it is not polite to repost an private e-mail in any way without the consent of the person who wrote it. The reason why nobody asked me and that I have to hear from other people what is going on shows what this threat is about.

I am asking the original poster to remove the private e-mail and if he has a question that he would like to ask openly in a forum please do so. Biggest problem with most forums that most quotes of people are mis represented.


Whoever has an opinion about Gefell mics can write about them as they please and spread their opinions how they want. But at least they should know the entiere story.

Most posts to historic Gefell mics that I read here are mostly propaganda and have nothing to do with helping other member to get an idea about Gefell.

Here are some facts, the historic Gefell x-former were made in Gefell due to the fact that no real audio lamination were available in former East Germany, sometimes they used nickel sheet to cut them from, sometimes they used plain dynamo lamination because that is all they could get, sometimes they used whatever they could get their hands on. Same with most Gefell parts during the time, the connector is the best example, any Tuchel connector from the 1950s can compete with 2006 connectors in material and mostly the 1950s one are even better than what we have today. The stuff Gefell used is home made and barely works.
What Gefell made during the Soviet occupied times is 1.6 tons of microphones a month ( to quote Mr. Kuehnast) and quality was not the goal, quantity.
The brother in arms the CCCP/USSR used WEST GERMAN Neumann's for their Radio/TV/Movie and audio productions instead of Gefell mics, that should gives you guys an inside about their quality.

So today most Gefell that were made during the GDR times are plain old garbage due to material problems. If someone wants to rebuild those mics, that is a pretty good job if you can do it yourself, but please see it in relations.
If someone points out the quality of a audio-transformer that is made with anything else than high quality NI/FE material does not have a clue where he is talking about. The DC resistance of the Gefell ones is an indicator how many turn were needed to get a simple 50Hz roll off, the DC resistance is also responsible for phase shift, etc.

There are several ways to make a mic better, but as I stated in my e-mail it has to stand in a relation to what it cost and what you get.

But in the end a rebuild CMV is a great mic to have.....

Oliver Archut
AMI/TAB-Funkenwerk
785-697-2257

P.S.
Up to today the person that claimed he had a broken of my x-former never called to get a free exchange.....

[danasti]

Originally Posted by carloff

I didn´t wanna mislead anybody..It was only about my mic.And I can´t believe that expert after 35 years pf servicing vintage german mics don´t want put to my piece olivers xformer only because he is lazy.or what .He propably got reason...

He does have a reason. He basically says that: "if it wasn't broken why fix it?"

Peter doesn't mention Oliver or Oliver's transformer in the email. He's only stating the simple fact that you don't need a new transformer. That's a good reason not to change your transformer, right?

Edited:

It's like buying a vintage 1073 with a working transformer and then saying that Brent Averill makes "not so good transformers" because the tech says "why bother changing it? it's still working".

That's essentially what he said and that was the issue.