Neumann CMV563?

[carloff]

The text: was answer for my question:
"What do you think about Tab funkenwer. x fromer.?"It´s clearer..?
I´m starting be tired from that..
Sorry if I misled somebody, but everything is possible to say polite way..its useless to offend somebody.and abuse...sorry
Im sorry that I posted that mail at all.
my apologies to Oliver, I really didn t say something bad
my apologies to Peter, that I put here his private mail..wasn´t well-considered
sorry sorry sorry
I´m too much at this forum last days -
time to change it

[HABBER]

[QUOTE=oliver archut;994643]Hello Guys,

first of all it is not polite to repost an private e-mail in any way without the consent of the person who wrote it. The reason why nobody asked me and that I have to hear from other people what is going on shows what this threat is about.

I am asking the original poster to remove the private e-mail and if he has a question that he would like to ask openly in a forum please do so. Biggest problem with most forums that most quotes of people are mis represented.


Hey Oliver,

Gone. My apologizes. I merely wanted people to see what you had to say on the mic. Everyone on this forum seems to have a great respect for your work.I wasn't thinking about it not being very nice, I thought of it as being informative, like a conversation I had with someone. I'm sorry and it won't happen again.

[danasti]

Originally Posted by carloff

The text: was answer for my question:
"What do you think about Tab funkenwer. x fromer.?"It´s clearer..?
I´m starting be tired from that..

Yes, now I see that it's just a misunderstanding. You only misinterpretted what he wrote. I don't think that you did this intentionally but he did not say, "definetley better than", he only says, "sometimes replacing a working vintage xfrmr with a working new xfrmr isn't always going to give you better results". These conclusions are very, very, very different from how you represented him- ("isn't always" means "maybe will not" or "not all the time"). So, if there's anything to be sorry about, it would be factual representations of someones statements that's why some people got upset about that statement for sure...

No sane person with even half a brain would replace an original tranformer in any vintage audio equipment if that transformer was working correctly. The same would go for the capsule or the power supply. They are part of the vintage package, as original, which is why we own vintage equipment. That would help keep the microphones value so as a good tech he wouldn't recommend that.

He never said that one transformer was "better" or "clearer"; only the one in your microphone is working.

Even though you asked about the TAB xfrmr he was speaking in general terms... I understand why you thought what you thought now. I think it's nice that you appologized and I hope we can have a good discussion and I hope you continue on with this forum.

[matucha]

It's funny,

Peter [Drefahl] went through the body of my CMV563, measuring everything and didn't find any problems at all! I couldn't believe that, so I asked him to try it again to see if there is any trace of distortion or any problems with HF, so he did and everything was fine again. What a surprise. So it seems that I have to blame the capsule for all of these symptoms that I wanted to get rid off. He haven't changed a simple thing, not resistors, not caps, definitely not the transformer and event tube was identified as one of the working well with long life prediction

Looks like we're [me and carloff] getting our mics back next week. I'm looking forward to use the new (completely new) M7 capsule from Gefell. Should be a 100% condition CMV563


There is an interesting fact about the measurements I've seen. There were 3 pieces of CMV with THD measured (it was always slightly above 0.1%) and the highes value was not in the lowest frequencies, but around 1k. Could it be why it has such a strong midrange character (in a good way)?

[perun]

Does anyone here have quotes/prices for new M7, M8 and other capsules for CMV 563? I don't see anything on Gefell's site!? Well, mine are in superb condition, but I'm very curious if they're overpriced or not!? It would be great having one more M7 or 8! Thanks...

[matucha]

Originally Posted by perun

Does anyone here have quotes/prices for new M7, M8 and other capsules for CMV 563? I don't see anything on Gefell's site!? Well, mine are in superb condition, but I'm very curious if they're overpriced or not!? It would be great having one more M7 or 8! Thanks...

Sorry for confusion... when I meant brand new capsule, I was talking about the inside of the capsule, not the whole thing that you screw on CMV.

The prices vary a lot. I've seen a lot of M7 for 150e, but also for 300e... I wouldn't pay much for M8 though, this capsule is somewhat wierd with it's freq. response and I'm not using it 99.9% of time. These are also frequently sold like a leftovers...

[perun]

Originally Posted by matucha

Sorry for confusion... when I meant brand new capsule, I was talking about the inside of the capsule, not the whole thing that you screw on CMV.

The prices vary a lot. I've seen a lot of M7 for 150e, but also for 300e... I wouldn't pay much for M8 though, this capsule is somewhat wierd with it's freq. response and I'm not using it 99.9% of time. These are also frequently sold like a leftovers...

Ok Matucha, it's clear. I know you were not talking about the enclosure! Capsule only. I know Gefell factory is repairing them, but I never contacted them directly to ask for quotes! So, I'm asking you Slutz.

Concerning M8 capsule, you're freaking wrong, really. It's so present and clear- not transparent, offcourse, but I never wanted it to sound transparent (although it has very accented and "strange" character, I used it for many LEAD vox). But when we got our CMV with M7, M8 and M9 it was in as NEW condition. So, I suspect your M8 is maybe a little overused??? Bought from broadcast company's reserves, it was rarely used. To be honest, M7 is the best one, but I like OUR M8 very much, too... Ok, it all comes down to a matter of tastes, doesn't it?

Cheers.

[matucha]

They've charged me 280euro for the material and 120euro for work (total 400 euro). The M7s I had was not in great shape, it had a coloured circle around the central screw. Initially it went for reskinning, but the offered me a entirely new thing for the same price and I've noded. I know I've lost a vintage M7, but knowing all the problems with aging/stiffening I opted for "neu" thing.


M8

Well when I was experimenting with it, I tried if I'm able to EQ HF response "back" to what it suppose to be. It was more or less possible (tried plugins only).

I have 3 of them, because one of the CMVs I had came with 2xM8 instead of 1xM7 and 1xM8. They all sound "the same" and very close to what I see in the graph I've attached to my post. I think these were used very little and I can't see no damage on the capsule of any of them.

Yep, for a strange character, it is a good capsule and it is my 0.1% of use for them.

I've asked on PSW forums a long time ago about why it has so limited/wierd freq response and someone (was it mr. satz or mr. archut? don't know at the moment) wrote that it is thing of the design of figure 8 mics, that royers managed to get wider "resonance" than some older designs, but that generally what you get with 8 is such a freq. response (for less confused explanation please search the PSW forums). So I took it as... "OK, it is a nature of the thing". Maybe it should be treated like some ribbons are.


I've never had the pleasure of having M9 and I wandered how different it could be to M55K and it looks like the are not even close when you compare the measurements.

[oliver archut]

Hello Haber,

thank you for removing the private e-mail, maybe I am old fashion but it is better to first ask "Hey is it O.K. to post" than just doing it.
I am always happy to state my opinion and give information on issues like the rebuild and upgrade as well infos and application hints on my products, with 3rd hand information so many times I have been mis quoted.

To rephrase what I wrote in an e-mail.
A new x-former in a mic than the CMV series won't change the mic dramatically and sometimes nothing at all because of the material problem in the former GDR. A rebuild of the entire mic is needed to get the old east german mediocre mic to a stellar vintage tube mic. In my experience everything needs to be replaced, resistors, capacitors as well as a new high quality (tube) mic cable, and a capsule rebuild to get a mic that can stand up to any west german Neumann counterparts, and do not forget the PSU.....

When buying a mic you always should get a money back/try it option because it does not matter who worked on it or what was done, you might not like it how it sounds; just buying it because this tech worked on it or because it has that aftermarket part is just dumb generalization.

Unless you get a screaming deal on a RFT/Gefell mic you should consider to buy one of their new ones that comes with warranty, or ones of the wonderful new inspired tube mics, unless you can do the work yourself and or take pride into custom solution.
I hope that helps,

[perun]

Originally Posted by oliver archut

In my experience everything needs to be replaced, resistors, capacitors as well as a new high quality (tube) mic cable, and a capsule rebuild to get a mic that can stand up to any west german Neumann counterparts, and do not forget the PSU.....

Yeah, you TECH guys always want to change not something, but everything! Ok, you would take a monster NEVE vintage console and put all the AUDIENT (for example, new bullshitly built console) caps etc. into it!? Just because they're good and NEW!? Well, I'm asking only this... Would it still be ORIGINAL GEFELL... Or would it become your "absolutely, subjectivly made REPLICA"? Or ARCHUT original... Again, if someone put TL072s to some good sounding unit (not best built unit), you would change it, always... You techs always think that only important parts are caps and stuff. Somehow you forget, always, a LOGIC that someone made when was constructing that "CRAP"!

Look Oliver, take any of ADR units! They're legends! Vocal stressers, Compex limiters... They're electronics SUCK! But it's sound and character are something that half of production-planet is masturbating at!

Cheers... Sometimes LESS IS MORE!

[oliver archut]

Hello Perun,

let me split your questions into two different sections, first the recapping part.

Any audio gear that is older than 20 years is in desperate need of recapping, due to chemical break down of the electrolytic capacitor.
All cap manufacture give an warranty for the proper working of their electrolytic with 10 or 20 thousand hours. Please do the math how long it takes in 8 hours a day six days a week when the estimated life time is up. What you use to change your caps is completely up to you, a 50 cents or a 50 Dollar cap as long as you do it.
There are huge improvements in capacitor technology, so updating is an option but not needed if you want to keep the original timbre of your gear.

Here is an analogies that might help you, if you have a 1966 Thunderbird that is all original, you replace oil/air filter, motor oil, tires and spark plugs before you can enjoy the ride.... Than better aftermarket part to get a smoother ride, like shocks, mounts (motor), etc. are optional... We can go on an on....

A 1965 V76 might pass signal but do you really think it sounds as it did when it was new?

Gefell!?!?!?!?!? East german caps and resistor just sucked form day one....
20/30/40 years later they are in desperate need to be replaced and my experience that comes from repair/rewinding of broken stuff shows that most of the x-former could have been saved if a new cap would have been installed at the given time, the DC leakage slowly roasted the x-former.
The life time of east german components are 1/2 than a 2/3 less than any westen origin component.
Also there is a little triangle on old GDR parts with a number, either 1 (first choice/export/military use) 2 (2nd choice preferred domestic use) or none at all (domestic use) indicated the quality. You will find lots and lots of those mics with none quality label at all... Shall I say more?
And just to give you an other good example, if a cap in your PSU burn out/chemical breaks down, the spike is enough to damage your capsule as well as other expensive to replace parts.

In general 10% of the cost of the gear/equipment should be used for maintenance/service of the unit to insure good working use.....

You have all the choice of gear that you want to use, and if some gear works for you better than other , that is mighty fine, but the old saying
"You get what you paid for is still valid",
especially when you want to get return of your investment.
A reworked/rebuild Neve sells in general for more than one that was never touched and comes with all the problems of vintage gear.....

Best regards,

Oliver

[matucha]

Dear diary,

autumn 2006 was extraordinary season of agression and pointless blaming. I fear what is to come next if it breaks out full. Viruses in the name of CMV563? No wait that already happend (there is a virus with the 563 nr in its name)...


Can't stay reasonable for a while?


Yes we all can end with replicas and shadows of former "glory". But if something doesn't work at the first place, everyone has it's own right for repair. You'd also want your organ replaced if it didn't work. IMO it is better to repair mic to it's potential than leaving it in the drawer, because it doesn't work. Bastardising healthy specimens is other thing we are (hopefully) not speaking about.

It is great to have options and one of the options is that piece of iron by oliver. [Perun] if you don't like it, don't buy it, it is that simple.

[matucha]

Originally Posted by oliver archut

Also there is a little triangle on old GDR parts with a number, either 1 (first choice/export/military use) 2 (2nd choice preferred domestic use) or none at all (domestic use) indicated the quality. You will find lots and lots of those mics with none quality label at all... Shall I say more?

That's interesting! I didn't know that, I thought that was kind of standard label in the studios for recognizing the mics. I've never seen "2" by the way. But there are lots without that's true.

This one I've sent to Peter Drefahl and that turned out "great" in his opinion was labeled "1". And UM57 I have is "1" also... that's positive for sure ;-).

[johnwy]

Originally Posted by matucha

So please get back to theme without personal insults or... or... or.... well... ehm... I'm gonna call some moderators you know?

Relax comrade! Ain't nuthin' to be worried about!

[HABBER]

Hey guys,

I got my mic today and I want to check it out. This might sound stupid but for the european to american power converter. What is the right question to ask at the store to power the original CMV563 Power Supply.

Just a regular converter 220/240V to 110/220v or something entirely different?

Anyone maby know?

[matucha]

The mic is back home from repair, so I've started a new thread about it.

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...81#post1007481

[HABBER]

Originally Posted by carloff

his name is andreas grosser
www.oldgermanmicrophones.com

Hey Carloff,

You suggest Andreas, yet in other threads you said you were going with Peter.

What happened and why did you change your mind? Who worked on your mic and were you happy?

BTW- My cmv563 sounds great. I'm just wondering if it needs to be cleaned up. I spoke with Bill Bradley and he said I would be blown away at the difference. I asked him if I could bring one of his refurbished ones home to A/B and he said he doesn't do loaners. How could I check out and A/B mine aainst a refurbished cmv?

[carloff]

both are good
andreas made for me power supply and peter mic...
andreas became my good friend)

[matucha]

Originally Posted by HABBER

BTW- My cmv563 sounds great. I'm just wondering if it needs to be cleaned up. I spoke with Bill Bradley and he said I would be blown away at the difference. I asked him if I could bring one of his refurbished ones home to A/B and he said he doesn't do loaners. How could I check out and A/B mine aainst a refurbished cmv?

Then it is possible that it is 100% working and doesn't need anything. As I said, the CMV563 body I have was in a perfect condition as it was, without any need to replace or tweek anything. All the difference was in the capsule. So if you don't expirience problems with missing lowend, distorsions, weird exagerated sibilance, just save your money for something else.

[HABBER]

Originally Posted by matucha

Then it is possible that it is 100% working and doesn't need anything. As I said, the CMV563 body I have was in a perfect condition as it was, without any need to replace or tweek anything. All the difference was in the capsule. So if you don't expirience problems with missing lowend, distorsions, weird exagerated sibilance, just save your money for something else.

I'm with you on saving money.....Mic does sound really good and clean. I'm very very happy.

I opened it up....everything is clean and solid. tight . Capsule is a little tiny bit dusty but pure golden color no blemishes anywhere. Beautiful. Just hearing about all these mods and re-capping gets me wondering. Could it be even better. Although I don't want to mess with a good thing without hearing someone elses souped up version. I would hate to wreck it.

At the end of the day, I'm stoked and recommend this mic to everyone. A good mic really changes your world.

Sometimes I buy crappy interesting stuff on Ebay that normally would suck, but with a good mic it sounds great. For instance. I bought this solid state RFZ mic pre for 100.00 that was from a german broadcast board. Same circuitry idea as some of the great Siemens and Telefunken stuff. Kind of junky for vocals....but acoustic solos... DAMN!!!!!!! Jack up the gain, stand back about 12 inches away from the 563. So woody and tuff. Guitar moves the speakers like Gilmour solo at the top of "wish you were here"

My point is Great mic will always sound good no matter what you put it through.

Love the 563. Thanks for all your advice GEAR SLUTZ. My proudest purchase to date!!!!!!

[carloff]

[HABBER]

Hey guys!


What companies today are making capsules that work on the CMV563? Google is not being my friend. I've heard B.L.U.E works but not sure........anyone else? Gefell? Korby? ELA?

I would love to try the B.L.U.E C12 copy.........Not really looking for carbon copy imitations, just fun options that will make my nuemann expierience better......

Maby we can start a list of capsules here and what they sound like.

[carloff]

Blue, Red --making the same only under different names as B7/R7, then Violet..It´s only what I know...Gefell repairs only older capsules as M7, M9, M8 and M55.
Good posibillity could be to try different recaping , because Gefells make proper PVC capsule, but on the other side S.Thiersch uses for reskinning mylar which is different sound.