DRUMS: large wood room, Ribbon mics, 3 Neve preamps, 3 great compressors

[Alex Wyler]

I'm going to be recording some drums in a very large and old wood/stone building.

Here's the gear:

1970 Ludwig 3 peice kit
Tama Stewart Copeland Snare
Zyldjian new beat hats and old Zyldian 20" ride/crash

AEA R84
Royer R-122
Rode NT1000

Neve Portico 5012 two channel preamp
Chandler LTD-1 neve 1073 reproduction

Neve Portico 5043 two channel compressor
Empirical Labs Distressor



With three mics, three very good preamps and three very good compressors,

What mics would you place where?

What preamps would you use for what mic and position?

What compressors would you use for what mic/preamp and how would you set the compressor in terms of ratio/attack/release?

I'm just sort of looking to see what people's different approaches might be to try different things out I may not think of with the combination of gear I have access to. I would like to commit to the sound while I record it so that would mean using the HP filters on the Portico preamps, using the EQ section on the Chandler and using compression while recording to make the sound as finalized as possible.

One last question: I was thinking that one of these mics would go 1-2 feet in front of the bass drum to get more punch out of it but stillt o maintian the sense of space and depth..not quite a room mic but maybe a cross between a close Kick mic and a FOK mic. What mic would be best in that application out of these three?

If the two ribbon mics were used as overheads and the Rode was left for the bass drum, I know the Rose is not the best mic for 1-2 feet in front of the bass drum so what mic would be better than the Rode if I were to buy a new one for that application only > 1-2 feet in front of the bass drum? Would a figure 8 pattern mic be best to get more of the room sound in there with the punchy sound coming off the front of the bass drum?

Thanks for any advice or suggestions with this setup or favorite gear settings to try!

[Dan]

Given this selection, I would use the 84, and the NT-1000 in a mid-side over the drummers head. Then put the Royer with the Chandler in front of the kick, and play with the distance, and phase. That way you can get a little stereo image, and vary the eq and amount of kick in the mix.
I probably wouldn't use the compressors, but I have an aversion to compression while tracking. Oh, and I would trade the NT-1000 for something else. (sorry, couldn't let it go.)

[stellar]

wow, I have a very similar setup:

vintage gretsch kit; distressor; pair of LTD-2's, an vintech dual 72 and a x73.

Don't own any ribbon mics though. So I can't really help you there

I would try all three as a single drum mic and see which one is best. then pick one of the other two for kick. (or something else completely). the third mic you can do whatever with. I've just been using two mics lately but if you have a third maybe go snare or room or m/s. As far as compression you didn't state the style of music. I've been putting the whole kit through a single LTD-2 and it is amazing, so I figure the portico might do well there. Of course if you are doing m/s you should probably leave the compression off. Also the player will determine where you need the compressors. Some players just have a sick kick foot and don't need any compression. Others you might want to slam with that distressor. I don't think anyone is going to be able to help you there.

[u b k]

dammit! i thought there were going to be gorgeous clips to revel in.

that thread title certainly got my attention!

glyn:

r84 snare side of kit
r122 floor tom side of kit
rode fok


recorderman:

r84 over snare
r122 over shoulder
rode fok


the cheap mic will probably benefit from the chandler the most. if you're gonna buy a mic to replace it (please do), get a 47fet, pr40, or re20.



gregoire
del
ubk
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[Alex Wyler]

Thanks for the replies!

Most people seem to agree with getting rid of the Rode NT1000 and finding a better mic to use in front of the bass drum.

I only own the Royer R1-22 and the AEA R-84 wich are both amazing ribbon mics.

I was thinking that to round out my mic collection a little better, I might do myself the good deed of owning a really great large diaphram condensor as well as the two ribbons. While the FET 47 or the iFET are really great condensor mics for the front of bass drum position and bass guitar cabinets, there are other large diaphram condensors that would be better all around for different applications...especially vocals.

Would mics like the Pearlman TM-1 or the Peluso U47 take off be good in front of the Bass drum like 1-2 feet out because I think they would be a better choice than getitng an iFET in terms of all around usefulness considering I would only own one Consendsor mic if I got rid of the Rode which I am considering very much since many people say they are crap compared to higher end mics.

Anyone think the Rode is going to do a great job in front of the Bass drum?

[tomdarude]

ubik, could you shortly explain the difference between glyn & recorderman ??

everytime those come up I´m confused.....
I guess what I always used was recorderman (the one explained by dokushoka in his nice little videoclip)


thx a ton, tom




and without trying I´d guess a Peluso 2247LE would be great FOK or "front of kick", def. much better than the rode!
you could also try a cheaper sE-mic (non-tube LDC)

[Tom H]

Nice experiment! We want pictures and samples!

Ubiks recommendations seem very good, try them out.

I would get rid of the rode and put an AKG C414 there and play around with its polar patterns untill you get the best sound. Or close mic with a re20..

[gyom]

Hi there,
I'm very curious:

Originally Posted by u b i k

glyn:

r84 snare side of kit
r122 floor tom side of kit
rode fok


recorderman:

r84 over snare
r122 over shoulder
rode fok

What are those "glyn" and "recorderman" things?

Does someone can explain?

thanks a lot

[DirkB]

Ditch the NT1000.

I'd go with the R-122 as mono overhead, the R84 FOK and grab yourself a SM57 for the snare. You probably won't need much of the snare mic if you're going for a minimal micing scenario, but it can always be useful.

Good luck,
Dirk

[u b k]

Originally Posted by gyom

What are those "glyn" and "recorderman" things?

glyn: http://www.danalexanderaudio.com/glynjohns.htm

recorderman: http://sfrecording.com/videos/DrumRecording.mp4


my description of the glyn technique (which is pretty loosey goosey as i understand it) drops the close snare mic, because the poster only has 3 mics. i've also had great success taking the over-snare mic and setting it up similar (height and orientation) to the floor tom mic, but with the mic some 2 feet away from the kit on the snare side, aimed at the snare as seen between the side of the kick and the hats. there's always a sweet spot that gets a lovely kick/snare/rack/hat balance. be particularly aware of phase when doing this.

the beauty of these techniques is they are simple, quick, and give a very honest representation of a kit as a big instrument in a living space rather than small bonky drums inside a speaker. they also allow for mono panning, very punchy, or unorthodox pannings if you're feeling tricksy.

spot mic'ing individual drums is still allowed, but even if you do the main 3 (or 4) mics will comprise the bulk of the sound, with spots allowing you to tailor the punch. spots do smear the phase a bit, not such a big deal in busier arrangements.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[tomdarude]

cool, thx ubik

[foldback]

Be careful with the 84 on your kick drum.

I like the Royer overhead and the AEA on the kick combination. You could use the NT1000 on the snare, I don't think an sm57 would be an improvement over the Rode for the snare except it would be more compact. The SM57 is going to sound cheap and nasal compared to those two smooth ribbons.

Depending on the space you're recording in and how far down into the kit you can pull the overhead, the two ribbons would probably be enough, especially if you have a kick ass drummer sitting on the throne.

[gyom]

thnaks a lot, ubik!

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by u b i k

my description of the glyn technique (which is pretty loosey goosey as i understand it) drops the close snare mic, because the poster only has 3 mics. i've also had great success taking the over-snare mic and setting it up similar (height and orientation) to the floor tom mic, but with the mic some 2 feet away from the kit on the snare side, aimed at the snare as seen between the side of the kick and the hats. there's always a sweet spot that gets a lovely kick/snare/rack/hat balance.

Funny you should say that, because I drummed for Glyn once, a long time ago and that was his exact set up (if i remember correctly).
Mic near floor tom, aimed at snare. Mic in front, aimed at bass drum. Mic above snare, between snare and hi-hat, about 3ft in front of kit, aimed at snare.
There might have been a centrally placed overhead, I can't remember, but I think there was.

[max cooper]

I got excited just reading the thread title.

[Pepe Ortega]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

Thanks for the replies!


Would mics like the Pearlman TM-1 or the Peluso U47 take off be good in front of the Bass drum like 1-2 feet out because

I really loves my pearlman 1-1.5 meter (3- 5 feet) in front of kick drum..
I use portico 5012 for Oh.
Api 512c or portico 5012 in Kick

[thermos]

Also love the pearlman in front of the kick. Lots o air as well, probably more so than a u47 fet.

[Alex Wyler]

Originally Posted by Pepe Ortega

I really loves my pearlman 1-1.5 meter (3- 5 feet) in front of kick drum..
I use portico 5012 for Oh.
Api 512c or portico 5012 in Kick

What do you use for overhead mics? What frequency do you set the HP filters to on your portico when trakcing the overheads and Kick?

others reading this...what frequecny would you set the variable HP filters on the Portico preamps at for this setup of two overhead mics and one slightly closer FOK?

___________________________________________________________________________________
More questions:

How close to the bass drum can you get with a Pearlman or a Peluso 2247?

Since I have the Royer R-122 and the AEA R84 and I was going to use them for two overheads, I thought that getting a really good condensor would round out by collection nicely and also allow me to get closer to the front head of the Bass drum than the Ribbons would allow. Is this true or is the minimum distance I can get to the front head of the bass drum the same for the R-122, the AEA R84 and the Pearlman or Peluso U47 knock offs?

My other thought was to get antoher R84, use two of them for overheads and the R-122 for the Kick but that wouldn't be as versatile as getting a LDC and I am not sure how close to the bass drum I could get with the R-122 if I need more punch? Would a Perarlman or Peluso 2247 blend well with the Ribbon overheads or would it stand out as souding too bright in comparison and need some High frequency roll off to blend with the overheads tonality?

How close to the bass drum is too close with the R-122 and R84 Ribbon mics?

I notice that the Royer demo CD has one mic 3 feet in front but if i wanted to get 1.5 feet in front would I blow the ribbon or would a pop filter make me 100% safe doing this?

I kind of want the drums to be a stereo image so I was going to use the two Ribbons as stereo overheads even through they are different mics, I still think this would sound good and the differences in the two mics would probalby make the image sound even more stereo no??

I was going to point the R84 straight down at the floor tom from about 1 meter above the drum and the R-122 over the rack tom in the same way. I figured that the R84 would get the low end of the floor tom better than the R-122 and that the R-122 woud get the mids of the rack tom better?

Since the snare is always the loudest thing in in the kit, I figured that by aiming the two mics at the toms and having them both equidistant from the center of the snare would put the balance of the three drums in a more even balance??

Is it better to have these two different ribbon mics horizontal (parallel to the floor) pointed directly down at the tops of the dum heads from like 1 meter above or is it better to lower the mics to being like a foot above and to the side of each of the two tom toms, pointing at the top center of the skins on an angle so the mics are in a more vertical but angled position? Will one of these be better and what will the noticable differences be? Which approach will give more room sound in the mics? Is it dangerous to put the mics a foot above and, beside a tom tom angled down pointing at the skin?

Lots of questions here but I think some of the amswers from experienced engineers may help a lot of folks out when experimenting with the minimalistic drum mic placement with ribbons.

[DirkB]

Yes, there is some cool advice, but don't overthink it.

Try to have a sound in your head that you are going for and try to get it with the equipment you have available.

Then, make your mistakes, learn from it and your next session will be better .