Toft ATB vs "HighEnd" Sum Boxes

[Vato]

All these great Summing Boxes: Neve 8816 , API8200, Tonelux MX2, SPL Mix Dream etc..
Would it be fair to say the New Toft ATB Console is nowhere near these in "High End" quality ???????????????
Cause if it IS indeed what some are saying about it...its not only a great OTB tool.
Its got 16 pre/EQ's to boot.
Hmmmmm could this be worth a look????????
John"Vato"Scalia

[Dirty Halo]

It really comes down to how good the center section sounds and since no one knows... who knows.

Could be... we'll only know when we can hear it.

(I used to have one on order, but the wait was just too much...for me)

-a

DIRTY HALO www.diryhalo.com

[flail19]

Well, if it makes you feel any better...I am waiting for the Toft to come out and I will be using it for OTB. How do I know that it will work? I don't, but I am at least a big enough fan of their other stuff to wait until I can hear for myself.

[GearHunter]

The biggest problem with any Toft ATB thread, and threads like it in general is that the product has not been released. A proto-type version has not yet been released. There is no one who has done any form of a comparison, so all you have here is a "battle of the marketers" referendum.

As I recall there were supposed to be units out by March of '06. Wha'happened?

[Stroem]

I would never buy a > US$2000 sum-mixer. In a couple of years 64-bit summing and eventually 128-bit summing will be close enough for not hearing any difference between digital and analog summing.

Has anybody tried how the new Sonar 64-bit summing engine sounds?

[DeepSpace]

Originally Posted by Stroem

I would never buy a > US$2000 sum-mixer. In a couple of years 64-bit summing and eventually 128-bit summing will be close enough for not hearing any difference between digital and analog summing...

The implication of your comment is that a lack of bit depth is the only thing that makes a difference between analog summing and ITB summing.

I'm wondering how you reached that conclusion?

[danasti]

Originally Posted by Stroem

I would never buy a > US$2000 sum-mixer. In a couple of years 64-bit summing and eventually 128-bit summing will be close enough for not hearing any difference between digital and analog summing.

Has anybody tried how the new Sonar 64-bit summing engine sounds?

I won't matter if it has a gazzilion-bit summing engine. People who buy analog summing aren't interested in bits. They want analog summing because it has analog circuits and electronics in the signal path. They want actual, measurable analog headroom to mix each channel, stem and buss into. It won't matter that it's "close enough" because "close enough" will never be an analog circuit.

There is not one comment here on what is "better". However, there is always a difference in signal presentation.

[GearHunter]

Originally Posted by Stroem

I would never buy a > US$2000 sum-mixer. In a couple of years 64-bit summing and eventually 128-bit summing will be close enough for not hearing any difference between digital and analog summing.

I'm not buying a car because in the year 2012 we will be flying around with personal jet-packs.

In fact, I'm not going to buy anything now because of the technology that's just around the corner.

And man, $2000 is WAY to much to spend! One of these days all things audio will be free-ware, and there will be Bruce Swedien emulators and Joe Chiccarelli plug-ins and Rick Rubin digital sound modules, and we'll just be able to think of a song idea and within seconds...poof! They will magically appear on our iPod V. 8.8. iTunes will be twelve songs for one Hillary Clinton nickel!

[Bang]

Originally Posted by Vato

All these great Summing Boxes: Neve 8816 , API8200, Tonelux MX2, SPL Mix Dream etc..
Would it be fair to say the New Toft ATB Console is nowhere near these in "High End" quality ???????????????
Cause if it IS indeed what some are saying about it...its not only a great OTB tool.
Its got 16 pre/EQ's to boot.
Hmmmmm could this be worth a look????????
John"Vato"Scalia

I don't understand how you could ask this question when the no one here has heard the TOFT. Furthermore, the TOFT is much more then summing as you have said, its a full blown mixer with pres, eqs, and faders.

[heyman]

How does that saying go.... you know the one where you ASSUME something?

[wwittman]

Would it be fair to say the New Toft ATB Console is nowhere near these in "High End" quality ???????????????

I think that's totally safe to say.

[tuRnitUpsuM]

It's all irrelevant


sometimes you don't need the highest of the Hi-end to garner a high-end sound...

If the center section does an adequate job... and u require OB EQ's , hands on control of your mixing, i think the Toft board will become a valuable asset to your rig.

I am an advocate for computers in the studio....majority of my posts prove that... but there is not a replacement in the 1s and 0s universe that can match the feeling one receives from using a quality mixer... be it 1024 bit mixing topologies... theres just some things computers cant do well... regardless. an example IMHO boosting frequencys in an EQ . I really feel that should be left to OB gear. why? they are more forgiving. But it is not a LAW by any means.

I plan on purchasing the Toft once feedback has been assessed... ATB16 maybe the ATB24 ... plan to run some quality Inductor-based EQ on the ass-end of it.... for some transformer saturation ... DAW sequencing, editing, recording, etc.


question u need to ask yourself is... are you gung-ho about aquiring High-end gear....or attaining High-end results... ??

give it a chance...


cheers folks... please keep in mind i do enjoy a good ramble.

[Pepe Ortega]

Originally Posted by GearHunter

The biggest problem with any Toft ATB thread, and threads like it in general is that the product has not been released. A proto-type version has not yet been released. There is no one who has done any form of a comparison, so all you have here is a "battle of the marketers" referendum.

As I recall there were supposed to be units out by March of '06. Wha'happened?

http://www.pmiaudio.com/forums/showt...p?t=203&page=2

[Andrew Kinsey]

The ATB is not a Summing Mixer as such it has loads of other features like Eq, Mic Pre's etc... As its not even available, it would be impossible to say how it would sonically compare to all those other units you mentioned.

But if you want to talk about: mixers vs summing mixers in general, its obvious that the benefits of Eq, Preamps, Sends, Faders, etc.. is going to be more than the features and benefits of your average Summing Mixer.

You have to bear in mind that the overall sound quality all depends on the mixer itself, extra features isn't allways beneficial to the end product if it means corners have been cut to make the unit affordable.

[shortyprs]

Originally Posted by Pepe Ortega

http://www.pmiaudio.com/forums/showt...p?t=203&page=2

The first round should be in the hands of US customs in a week. Maybe they'll give a review!

[Dirty Halo]

blah... NONE of it matters until someone can hear it. Period.

In "theory," would a full mixer compete with just a summing center section at the same price? No rules, but I'd generally bet not, but who knows... no one has heard a damn thing.

I'm guessing the heart of this thread is less about the board itself and more about the virtues of investing in a board or investing in a summing box:

For the money, you'll most likely get a better center section and quality if you focus your dollars. If EQs, pres, subs, aux and faders are important to you, then there's your answer.

But in my opinion, you generally can't have your cake and eat it too. Ya gotta pay for something somewhere... so if you have a $2000 center section vs. a console about the same price, I'd bet as a generalization that same board's center section isn't on par (and that's not saying anything about this board in particular)

It's more a function of your needs... in theory.

The rest are just people waiting to hear something LONG over-due!

It may be great, I hope it is, but for now it is nothing, literally. Man, if I had waited to mix a project when I was on the pilot program, I'd be one pissed puppy

-a

[Tim Farrant]

Surely (and don't call me Shirley) this product falls into the catergory of "recording console". How on earth can anyone call it a summmmmmmmmmmmmmming mixer????

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by Tim Farrant

Surely (and don't call me Shirley) this product falls into the catergory of "recording console". How on earth can anyone call it a summmmmmmmmmmmmmming mixer????

Tim.

Please don't attempt to thwart the re-invention of the wheel.

You will anger the natives.

Best regards,

SM.

[Vato]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

The ATB is not a Summing Mixer as such it has loads of other features like Eq, Mic Pre's etc... As its not even available, it would be impossible to say how it would sonically compare to all those other units you mentioned.

But if you want to talk about: mixers vs summing mixers in general, its obvious that the benefits of Eq, Preamps, Sends, Faders, etc.. is going to be more than the features and benefits of your average Summing Mixer.

You have to bear in mind that the overall sound quality all depends on the mixer itself, extra features isn't allways beneficial to the end product if it means corners have been cut to make the unit affordable.

You see this is exactly what Im talking about. I was about to buy the 8816 based on sound color, control room features, ability to do parallel comping, and summing OTB...but all this talk about the ATB has made me want to wait, cause if it is a great sounding mixer, then the same money it takes to buy the 8816 gets me pretty much the same as the Neve( I really doubt it will sound any near the 8816) for OTB and I get all those pres, eq's , aux's , faders etc..,.
That makes the ATB very attractive. Guess Ill have to wait and see. Vato

[GearHunter]

Originally Posted by Vato

That makes the ATB very attractive. Guess Ill have to wait and see. Vato

Yes, well waiting and seeing (and hearing) is wise. As has already been pointed out, the ATB doesn't actually even exist yet. Maybe it'll be great. Maybe it'll stink up the joint. Or maybe you will need a fire-extinguisher nearby when powering up the thing. Who the fook knows?

If you want an excellent-sounding summing system that has been proven on the market for years now, and has classic console sound, look in to the API 8200 system. It's not vapor. It's real! API7600/8200/7800

[heyman]

Drew, where would you rank the API DSM stuff on a scale in terms of..

Sound/features/usability..

Also its summing capabilties compared to other units on the market.

I believe the unit uses some ic's in its path, but if built well it shouldnt matter.

[GearHunter]

Originally Posted by heyman

Drew, where would you rank the API DSM stuff on a scale in terms of..

Sound/features/usability..

Also its summing capabilties compared to other units on the market.

I believe the unit uses some ic's in its path, but if built well it shouldnt matter.

Haven't had the pleasure yet, but knowing the sound and quality of API, I think it's a brilliant solution for someone who has the budget and an uncompromising ear. Ic's don't bother me, if implemented well, obviously. Some of my favorite consoles are loaded with 'em.

[Vato]

Originally Posted by Tim Farrant

Surely (and don't call me Shirley) this product falls into the catergory of "recording console". How on earth can anyone call it a summmmmmmmmmmmmmming mixer????

Ok Smarty Pants- Sorry about calling the "recordin console" a dirty word. Cmon we all get what these things do. The Summing Mixer IS the center section of a Recording console. They are brothers and sisters or God and Jesus or .......something.
Vato

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Bang

I don't understand how you could ask this question when the no one here has heard the TOFT. Furthermore, the TOFT is much more then summing as you have said, its a full blown mixer with pres, eqs, and faders.

I heard a prototype ATB sum the sound of a CD into a stereo output that I could monitor on headphones and I distincly heard different sounds in my left and right ears. Does that mean it's not summing properly? Should I put the panpots in the middle for this type of summing?

-R

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I heard a prototype ATB sum the sound of a CD into a stereo output that I could monitor on headphones and I distincly heard different sounds in my left and right ears. Does that mean it's not summing properly? Should I put the panpots in the middle for this type of summing?

-R

Summing means exactly that, you need more than just a few channels, it's how it handles 16, 24 or 32 channels that will determine its "summing" capabilities.

It always amazes me why people use a two channel CD to demo a mixing or recording console... it's all the channels, the EQ, the center section, the sum (no pun intended) of the parts.

Anyway, like I said in the other post, this is all blah blah blah until it is real and heard in the real world. I hope for the best, but can only deal with what is real and out there today.

For those "waiting," my advice is don't. You'll always be waiting for next greatest and latest and these days, so much gear is vapor... you can waste your time waiting for things to POSSIBLY make it better.

Make the most with what you have and make the best decision with what is available today. My two cents.

-a

[tuRnitUpsuM]

So long as Recording console isn't looked at as Tracking console... always thought Tracking Consoles had a transformery feeling to them... as most would use this new delicacy to sum their outputs with the 80b EQ treatment... as well as use the monitoring aspect... patch in OB gear... Tracking consoles > API 1604... Neve 80xx kelso melbourne.... Trident ....etc. ATB????... just the feeling i get.


cheers.... but i did and do state its a mixer....NOT summing box... common sense folks!.

[foldback]

Depends on what you're looking for. The Toft is a low cost full featured mixer with preamps and eqs, it's probably going to be a nice piece but I doubt it will have the headroom of the Neve 8816.

I have a Yamaha MG32 mixer we use on corporate PA rentals. They sell for $1200 new. It sounds great for an inexpensive mixer. I've used it to sum Protools outputs and it works but it does not sound as fat as the Neve 8816. It's all a matter of what you want to do and how much you can spend to achieve what you want.

OTB techniques are not just about summing, it's about getting a bunch of fine analog processors working together with the digital source content to create the biggest and best sound at mixdown.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by foldback

but I doubt it will have the headroom of the Neve 8816.

What makes you say that? Have you tried them both? Have you measured either? Is it the little lighting bolt that symbolizes the "N word"? Is there any foundation in science for this comment or are we talking mythology?

[Infernal Device]

Originally Posted by DarkSky

The implication of your comment is that a lack of bit depth is the only thing that makes a difference between analog summing and ITB summing.

I'm wondering how you reached that conclusion?

OH SNAP!!

[Buddhaman]

Drew said---

"....If you want an excellent-sounding summing system that has been proven on the market for years now, and has classic console sound, look in to the API 8200 system. It's not vapor. It's real! API7600/8200/7800...."


wowza...that is some heavy pimpin'

you are the Bishop Don Magic Juan of Gearpimps....you even include a link to your gearpage!!!

I have been away for a while....is this what gearslutz has devolved too? A thread on the potential of the ATB reduced to free advertisement for "Huggy Bear" Drew?

back in the day (I believe it was 2005....yes, I wore an onion on my belt--it was the style at the time)...if someone like Nathan or War or any other dealer hijacked a thread, disparaged a manufacturer ("...wasn't it supposed to ship in March?...") and posted a link they would have been flambeed......

am I crazy here? should I just go away?

Buddhaman