Any clocking/jitter experts here ?

[rjay]

Recently, I bought a Kurzweil KSP8 which (for various reasons) I am only use able to use via the TDIF port of my Sony DMX-R100. Typical of my luck, there is some kind of problem between the TDIF implementation of either or both units and the only way I can get the KSP8 working 100% is to operate it on external wordclock, pass that wordclock to the TDIF port and have the sony sync off the wordclock that is present in the TDIF signal.

Now obviously I'd rather the Sony was clocking off the wordclock generator rather than a "second-hand" signal via the KSP8's TDIF port. So my question is how degraded the signal is likely to be when it arrives at the Sony ?

And before someone writes "use your ears" let me point out that changing the wordclock on the Sony is a big operation which involves rebooting the machine (2 minutes), so A/B comparisons are a bit difficult ...

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by rjay

Now obviously I'd rather the Sony was clocking off the wordclock generator rather than a "second-hand" signal via the KSP8's TDIF port. So my question is how degraded the signal is likely to be when it arrives at the Sony?

It's not about "degraded" or "use your ears", really, you'll simply have clicks in the audio signal with an incorrect clock setup... Not more, but that usually renders the signal unusable.
Simply set the Kurzweil to clock to the incoming TDIF or to Wordclock from the Sony. If it can sync to an external Word Clock source, it should also be able to sync to Word Clock from the Sony, which would then be clock Master.

Daniel

[rjay]

Errr... well, thanks for trying to help but it's not that simple.

As I said there is a problem with the implentation of TDIF, probably on the Sony side as I know plenty of people have had TDIF problems with that desk. In a nutshell, the KSP8 TDIF produces lots of noise UNLESS the Sony is synced to it. That is why I am asking the question about jitter as I had already tried your suggestions (and numerous others) and now know that this is the only way the units work together.

[ODZ]

Originally Posted by rjay

I'd rather the Sony was clocking off the wordclock generator rather than a "second-hand" signal ...

Does this imply a Third party Master Clock Generator or are you referring to the internal clock of the Sony? If the former, clock both machines off of the same clock.

When you say "word clock connection", I assume a BNC connection. Of course, if that is not available on the Kurtzweil, go with d_fu's advice.

What kind of TDIF implementation problems have you found? Is this documented by the manufacturer? Not too likely to be a fault with BOTH units. Is it simply a pinout issue?

Good luck

[ODZ]

Is clocking off of the Kurzweil that terrible? Meaning, does the Sony have a superior clock? Or are you just more comfortable with the idea of clocking internally off of the Sony. There may be some sonic differences depending on which clock is the master, but all-in-all there is nothing wrong with clocking the Sony off of a "second-hand" sync signal.

Jitter is not what you're dealing with here at all-you have sync issues and I'm curious as to the TDIF implementation issues you mentioned..

edit- ahh... lucid, OK interesting. So you say the Sony has issues clocking from the Lucid as well?

Also, I notice the TDIF is an option for the Kurzweil, not stock, do you have this option installed or are you using the stock connection?

[rjay]

Yes, I am using a Lucid clock and have already tried clocking both units off it ... the KSP8 produces lots of clicks even though both Sony & KSP8 say they are locked. The KSP8 does indeed have a wordclock in .... which is what I am using.

I've had Kurzweil tech support on the case for days so I doubt anyone here will come up with any ideas that we haven't already tried: there's only so many possible combinations. At this point I'm only interested in what may happen to the clock from when it enters the KSP8 word in to when it goes out via TDIF ...

The Sony's TDIF implementation is a bit suspect leading to these exact same issues (clicks and noise even when the unit says it is locked).

[rjay]

I don't have sync issues if the two machines are hooked up in the way I previously described so I think 'jitter' is relevant to the discussion ...

[rjay]

No ... I never said the Sony had issues clocking off the Lucid ...

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by rjay

As I said there is a problem with the implentation of TDIF, probably on the Sony side as I know plenty of people have had TDIF problems with that desk. In a nutshell, the KSP8 TDIF produces lots of noise UNLESS the Sony is synced to it. That is why I am asking the question about jitter as I had already tried your suggestions (and numerous others) and now know that this is the only way the units work together.

As long as you're syncing with Word Clock, there shouldn't be a TDIF issue. What kind of "noise" are you referring to? Is this in a situation where both devices run on their internal clock?

If you sync the Sony to the Kurzweil, jitter will be determined by the clock quality of the Kuzweil or the external clock generator....

The Kurzweil can sync to an external clock, so it should sync to the Sony's Word Clock or even to TDIF coming back from the Sony. Have you actually tried that?

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by rjay

I've had Kurzweil tech support on the case for days so I doubt anyone here will come up with any ideas that we haven't already tried: there's only so many possible combinations.

Not really... Not considering the Lucid for now, one of the two has to master, the other will have to sync to it. Now what actually happens when you try to sync the K to the S with Word Clock? Have you tried?

At this point I'm only interested in what may happen to the clock from when it enters the KSP8 word in to when it goes out via TDIF ...

Nothing. There is no "jitter" in digital transfers. Jitter happens at the AD or DA stage, depending on clock quality.

[rjay]

With respect, you're saying what SHOULD work, whereas I already know that it doesn't work ... The noise is primarily distortion that increases in volume with the actual reverb signal.

[ODZ]

OK, 1 more......

If they were my machines...seeing that the TDIF is optional on BOTH units, I would remove the option cards from each machine and see if using multiple sync configurations (WC, AES, etc) without the TDIF present yields the same results, try to eliminate the variable. If you say there is known issue with the TDIF implementation remove it from the equation toatally to determine if the machine operate as they are supposed to in a stripped down state. The presence or the card itself could manifest a problem throughout the whole system, I've seen it before with other units.

"The Sony's TDIF implementation is a bit suspect leading to these exact same issues (clicks and noise even when the unit says it is locked).
Today 07:52 AM "-that's why I asked about the Sony's issues clocking from the Lucid

and...there are multiple modes specific to the TDIF sync......"DA-88 or Other".....I'm sure Support brought this up, but it was somrthing I just noticed.

[rjay]

I have tried syncing the KSP8 to wordclock and then bringing it's I/O to the Sony using AES and everything worked correctly. However I don't have spare AES so that was just a temporary thing.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by rjay

With respect, you're saying what SHOULD work, whereas I already know that it doesn't work ... The noise is primarily distortion that increases in volume with the actual reverb signal.

Well, you weren't exactly very informative about the problems... Are you sure you've correctly set the K to sync to WCK? Does it have a display for a valid incoming clock signal? What does that do when you connect WCK from the Sony? What does it do when you tell it to sync to incoming TDIF from the Sony? Does it do so? Does the Sony show the incomong TDIF signal as being valid?

[rjay]

Hmmm... not too sure where the misinformation was here. I thought my first post was pretty clear and I didn't actually ask for help to fix the problem: I merely mentioned it as background info. Anyway:

The KSP8 locks to wordclock no problem
The Sony lock to wordclock no problem
There is digital noise from the KSP8's TDIF ports if the Sony is clocked to wordclock directly from Lucid
If the Sony is clocked to the TDIF port (from the KSP8) then everything works but I am uncomfortable clocking the desk off a clock signal that has already passed from a word in to a TDIF out (KSP8).

Every other possible combination (ie syncing the KSP8 to the Sony via TDIF clock, syncing the KSP8 to Sony's internal clock), etc.) results in digital noise even though the two machines report WC sync. Indeed, it is not difficult to get the two units to report WC sync, but despite that I still get digital noise on TDIF. Have also tried two other TDIF ports and cables with the same result.

[ODZ]

That is much more consice,

Clock the Sony fron the TDIF unitl KW or Sony support can come to a resolution for you.

There is no degradation of sync signal when clocking from TDIF ports. Stick with what works for the time being.

Daniel, you're spot on.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by rjay

Hmmm... not too sure where the misinformation was here. I thought my first post was pretty clear and I didn't actually ask for help to fix the problem

Sorry, won't do it again...

If the Sony is clocked to the TDIF port (from the KSP8) then everything works but I am uncomfortable clocking the desk off a clock signal that has already passed from a word in to a TDIF out (KSP8).

There isn't really anything to worry about.

Every other possible combination (ie syncing the KSP8 to the Sony via TDIF clock, syncing the KSP8 to Sony's internal clock), etc.) results in digital noise even though the two machines report WC sync.

This clearly shouldn't be happening.

[rjay]

Haha .... Sony support ?? Neither the Sony or the KSP8 have been supported in years.

Thanks anyway.

[ODZ]

[QUOTE=rjay;967211]
I've had Kurzweil tech support on the case for days ....

Neither the Sony or the KSP8 have been supported in years.

QUOTE]

man, you are full of mixed messages.

[rjay]

?? There is a difference between a company having technical support and the product itself being supported !

[d_fu]

???

[rjay]

Well, if you know any company that supports products for ever, please let us all know. Both the DMX & the KSP8 were created by engineers that no longer work at their respective companies. Hence, although Kurzweil & Sony have technical departments they cannot help (much) with either of these products.

[d_fu]

Well, if there's no solution from them (and you "didn't actually ask for help to fix the problem"), you'll probably just have to keep using it the way it works...

[Lexicondonn]

This might sound dumb, but I have a similar problem with my APhex 1100 Preamp and my digital console and Big Ben.

I have to make sure my Console is on first, turn on my Preamp (Which has an AE/EBU connection going to the console) the preamp locks to word clock and starts clicking. crackle etc. So I hit the int/ext button on the pre and it's fine after that.


Sorry I could't be more help

[ODZ]

Man, that's a good point. Boot order could be a factor

[rjay]

Yes, it is a good point. I've played around so many times now that I imagine I have turned things on in different orders, but there's no harm in trying ....

[RhOdEz]

Well i haven't used these pieces ,so excuse me if i suggest something stupid ,but have you tried it with 48 khz (or 44.1 if your default is 48 ) ?
maybe they will like another samplerate better ,also is there a possibility to use AES/EBU or spdif for clocking only on KSP (instead of WC connection ) while audio still travells via TDIF ?

[rjay]

I did try 48 instead of 44.1 but it made no difference.

The clocking isn't actually the problem, as both units indicate that they are locked to word no problem. The problem is the noise in the TDIF signal when both units are clocked to word - the kind of noise you normally associate with clocking problems.

[timtoonz]

Well, I'm not sure if this will be useful or not.

But I've got a KSP8 connected via TDIF to my MOTU2408 (with 2 HD192's), and all of them are synced via word clock to an Apogee Big Ben.

I've gotten it to work MOST of the time, but sometimes the KSP8 just spits out noise and refuses to sync to the MOTU even though they're both accepting locked WC from Big Ben. Most of the time it sorts itsefl out after a few minutes, but the best way I've found to avoid the digital garbage is to turn the KSP8 on first.

Again, I don't know if this will solve your particular problem. Just passing along the boot order was definitely an issue in my setup, and that despite what "should" work there seemed to be a certain amount of voodoo involved.

Reminds me of the good ol' SCSI days!

[ArcCirDude]

Clocking? Jitter? No problem....


Clocking:




Jitter: