Why did the 1073 become the classic, most wanted neve ?

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by jdjustice

maybe you at least thought you liked "Neeeeeeeeeve®" for a while and in good conscience sold them because you believed in them? and then when they were gone you devised that they were actually probably worthless instruments symbolic of capitalist ordinance?

I suppose a bit of an explanation is indeed in order.

I have nothing against 1073's, etc. They are indeed very good tools... they're just not any form of the "magic bullet" so many people make them out to be. As recently as 10 years ago there were damn few alternatives for "everyday use" articles to 10xx modules... today, 10 years subsequent, there is a plethora of great tools that offer the user the ability to create better depth, detail and distinction to their audio.

When we did the Great River stuff the original idea was to take the original design criteria for Neve® and bring it from 1973 to 2003. What we [humans/design engineers] knew about transformer design imroved in that period. Component quality improved during that period. Switching systems that decay with time could be replaced with logic switching that would not adversely affect the audio integrity but prolong the life of the unit, preserve the audio integrity of the unit far into the future and not take a shit load of human time to solder and construct. This was not to say any corners were going to be cut. Build costs were not to be kept down by using shitty components and attention to detail from circuit board trace size to component placement was given paramount importance.

The net result, at least for me, was a unit that had the "shank" of the older design but was better suited to modern use. The net result didn't get as "cloudy" when you stacked up too many tracks as its forefather. The GR product will age a hell of a lot better than the Neve® product... and seeing as it looks like 30 years from now people may very well still be using many of the same tools they do now that longevity was important to us.

At the time when I [and M-A] was pimping Neve® modules we also came up with a mounting and power supply system that was second to none. We overpowered the modules to the same degree you would find in one of the original consoles because while the modules only draw 250ma that doesn't take "current on demand" draw into account, and "current on demand" is of paramount importance for passing transients as well as creating bass waves [and unbefvckinglievably important when you put the two together like for a kik drum]. The "current on demand" lesson was but one of the myriad of lessons we learned during that period... other lessons included the beginnings of how frequency response and phase coherency affected the audio process... which in the Great River case led to me being a complete asshole about what transformers went into the units [among other things].

We were able to take many of the lessons we learned at that time and translate it to other designers... both designers who did "Mercenary Edition" stuff and designers who did other stuff... and today, there is no shortage of great stuff that I feel surpasses most 30+ year old equipment... some of it sold by M-A, much of it not... but enough so that I still have a job even if I do make an arsehole of myself on a regular basis.

As I said at the beginning of this, I have nothing against old Neve® stuff... but they ain't no magic bullet. When I kept bringing them around to Henry Hirsh and company and they kept telling me to take them home I thought they were rather daft. It took me a good while to understand a lot of what they were going for with those recordings... but over time it sunk in. There are no "magic bullets" and if you don't use the same gear as everyone else your recordings will indeed stick out [from a sonic perspective] on the radio [as I dare say those first 3 Kravitz records do in no small way]... however I do think it is a severely daft move to buy yourself a compressor that costs more than an entry level BMW that you haven't been able to get proper tubes for in years... but that I reckon will have to stay a debate for another day].

I said earlier that I can't afford Neve® modules for my studio, and I can't. While I don't live on the most conservative of equipment budgets I do have to live on a budget for the hardware in my room. I have $4k into my console [which will probalby be $8k when I'm done] but it has better headroom and phase response than an API... I have $5k into my nearfield monitors, I have another $20-30k in mic-pre's, $40-50k in microphones... but I do NOT have $3,500 into any one single channel of any pre or pre/EQ combination... especially one that is 30+ years old with who knows what for switches nor brand new switches with who knows what for output transformers. Maybe I am talking in circles and trying to rationalize my own frugality... maybe I'm not. The long and the short of it is that I don't feel that those are tools I require to make records... as always, YMMV.

[jdjustice]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

When we did the Great River stuff the original idea was to take the original design criteria for Neve® and bring it from 1973 to 2003. What we [humans/design engineers] knew about transformer design improved in that period. Component quality improved during that period. Switching systems that decay with time could be replaced with logic switching that would not adversely affect the audio integrity but prolong the life of the unit, preserve the audio integrity of the unit far into the future and not take a shit load of human time to solder and construct. This was not to say any corners were going to be cut. Build costs were not to be kept down by using shitty components and attention to detail from circuit board trace size to component placement was given paramount importance.

The net result, at least for me, was a unit that had the "shank" of the older design but was better suited to modern use. The net result didn't get as "cloudy" when you stacked up too many tracks as its forefather. The GR product will age a hell of a lot better than the Neve® product... and seeing as it looks like 30 years from now people may very well still be using many of the same tools they do now that longevity was important to us.

Fletcher, JSYK, i am very impressed with what you and Dan Kennedy did in designing the GR stuff. i own the MP-2NV and absolutely love it, and don't give a flying f*ck whether it sounds like a 1073. and i am just one of perhaps hundreds of people who feel this way. you did a great job here and are correct to feel a sense of pride about it.

Originally Posted by Fletcher

We were able to take many of the lessons we learned at that time and translate it to other designers... both designers who did "Mercenary Edition" stuff and designers who did other stuff... and today, there is no shortage of great stuff that I feel surpasses most 30+ year old equipment... some of it sold by M-A, much of it not... but enough so that I still have a job even if I do make an arsehole of myself on a regular basis.

i also agree with this. there is certainly no shortage of excellent gear that is modern and there may be no real need to search out gear just because of a unit number with a somewhat mythical reputation.

now i understand more of what you were getting at; perhaps you were in a different mood when you posted earlier (?) because the earlier post is like "oh no here goes Fletcher flying off the handle" where this post is understandable and concise. thank you for clarifying your position.


cheers
J.D.

[DeepSpace]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

...I have nothing against 1073's, etc. They are indeed very good tools... they're just not any form of the "magic bullet" so many people make them out to be. As recently as 10 years ago there were damn few alternatives for "everyday use" articles to 10xx modules... today, 10 years subsequent, there is a plethora of great tools that offer the user the ability to create better depth, detail and distinction to their audio...

With your added explanation, Fletcher, your position makes a lot more sense to me. I'm still not sure I agree with it, but I now feel I can comprehend where you're coming from.

As for magic bullets - fair comment as far as it goes. But then, magic bullets are not available at any price or with any brand/name inscribed on them. GR, Fearn, AD etc are not magic bullets either, whatever the shop tag says and no matter who is pimping them. They are *all* tools, no more, no less.

[GURU]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

No, but I recall it being built. It was a project by Mr Neve, Geoff Watts and Graham Wood with all the circuits I have seen hand-drawn by Geoff.

Conversations I've had with Allen Hurst (a design engineer at Neve) led me to believe that he was called in to sort out the remote control mic pre arrangement.

Further conversations I've had concerning testing the console were that there were stability issues that involved rolling the HF off to resolve. The consoles were unusual in the bussing system that worked directly into a 5534 without the transformer arrangement of earlier Neve's that referenced the 0v back to that of the sending routing units. These consoles mixed directly into the op amp and had, I believe, a conflict between input, output and power 0v at the mix point.

Certainly, conversations I've had with an owner of one of these consoles led me to believe the mix bus outputs noise floor is in the high -60's.

Later Neve (the company) projects like the 51 series, and subsequently the V's, used a quazi balanced bus system where the input ground was split from the output ground by means of a resistor. This produced noise figures at least 20dB better than any previous Neve.

Geoff, is this the console you are referring to? Soon to be restored and residing in a studo in the Northeast US.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by GURU

Geoff, is this the console you are referring to? Soon to be restored and residing in a studo in the Northeast US.

Hi

That's the ex-A & M console... I have seen that console when it was first built at Neve, in Malcolm Jackson's "barn" when he brokered bringing it back from Montserrat, and in its last home of A & M.

My comments applied to all of them. I knew that this one was in storage not far from me but I got the vibe that no outside help was required.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by DarkSky

But then, magic bullets are not available at any price or with any brand/name inscribed on them. GR, Fearn, AD etc are not magic bullets either, whatever the shop tag says and no matter who is pimping them. They are *all* tools, no more, no less.

Abso-fvckin-lutely exactly what I was trying to say [except that you stated it in a far more succinct and elegant manner].

[tsd]

im fairly sure 1073's only became popular after people saw the little pic on the left of this post...

[u b k]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

You know what they say about "assuming" things, right?

nah, but i'm not worried... what other people think of me is none of my business .

my assertion is that a healthy majority of gearslutz believe the 1073 is the most sought after neve module, and have never actually seen or used one in person. thus my comments about buzz and the power of word of mouth.

you disagree?


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[vernier]

I never liked 'em.

[lukejs]

You´ve got me so excited about the 1073.....that I´m buying one tomorrow... for my UAD1.....

[Lek]

Originally Posted by u b i k

my assertion is that a healthy majority of gearslutz believe the 1073 is the most sought after neve module, and have never actually seen or used one in person. thus my comments about buzz and the power of word of mouth.

you disagree?


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Jesus, I don't disagree, I've never used ANY neve, and because of all of these threads, I'm dying to at least hear what the hell they sound like so I either get rid of it and be happy with what I've got -- or sell all of my Chandler, Cranesong, and API's and keep the mofo! (I'm not REALLY a gearslut - I like to keep the minimum amount needed to get the job done)

In all honesty, I feel it's great to try EVERYTHING in life personally to find out what is right for you (from mic preamps to jobs, girls, etc.)

[Steamy Williams]

Originally Posted by tsd

im fairly sure 1073's only became popular after people saw the little pic on the left of this post...

Given that this thread was originally asking why the 1073 became more popular than the 1066 or 1084, etc, that doesn't really explain it, as those are 1084's in your avatar, right?

[Ibvee]

@Gie-sound
I said that I couldn't find it on the equipmentlist, but found it a bit unusual too. Never bin there though.

Thanks for the list of Neve's over here, have something to check out now

SAE Amsterdam had a very small 24ch Neve, they had a deal going on with tl-audio, and got a 32ch VTC in return. So they don´t have a neve anymore.

You didn´t piss me off man, thanks for the info!

[Bob Amirian]

Originally Posted by Lek

In all honesty, I feel it's great to try EVERYTHING in life personally to find out what is right for you (from mic preamps to jobs, girls, etc.)

Don't want to wake you up, dream on amigo, but... with all respect... you will never try EVEYTHING in your life, especially preamps and girls, because the ones you'd fancy the most require much mo' dough than you can actually fit into your sock. Even provided you're a Yeti.


Bo(o)b

[Peter Gruden]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I suppose a bit of an explanation is indeed in order.

When we did the Great River stuff the original idea was to take the original design criteria for Neve® and bring it from 1973 to 2003.

Fletcher,
I opened the new 1073DPA preamp recently. I guess Neve has done the same as you did with GR, maybe in a different way. Instead of those old switches there is a nice Elma 04, but it is not passing audio I beleive, I have seen no resistors on it and there is a large number of relays on the board for gain control obviously. There is even a switching power supply operating at 120kHz. How good can this be for audio - perhaps Geoff should explain - but it is probably important how it is done. Build quality is excellent, and a quick check against Hardy M1 with a pair of ribbons did not reveal any weakness in sound either, just a different character.
Peter

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Peter Gruden

Fletcher,
I opened the new 1073DPA preamp recently. I guess Neve has done the same as you did with GR, maybe in a different way. Instead of those old switches there is a nice Elma 04, but it is not passing audio I beleive, I have seen no resistors on it and there is a large number of relays on the board for gain control obviously. There is even a switching power supply operating at 120kHz. How good can this be for audio - perhaps Geoff should explain - but it is probably important how it is done. Build quality is excellent, and a quick check against Hardy M1 with a pair of ribbons did not reveal any weakness in sound either, just a different character.
Peter

Hi Peter

Having not seen one I'm in no position to make any comment other than it is a good idea to get the circuit switching off the Elma and onto the motherboard. Paths and grounds are better controlled and the relays have lives in millions of operations.

It'll probably outlive a vintage version!

[soentkensound]

Originally Posted by Ibvee

@Gie-sound
I said that I couldn't find it on the equipmentlist, but found it a bit unusual too. Never bin there though.

Thanks for the list of Neve's over here, have something to check out now

SAE Amsterdam had a very small 24ch Neve, they had a deal going on with tl-audio, and got a 32ch VTC in return. So they don´t have a neve anymore.

You didn´t piss me off man, thanks for the info!

Hi,

I just started to work in a room that has a VRL legend:
"hof van Heden"

[Gie-Sound]

Originally Posted by tool

Hi,

I just started to work in a room that has a VRL legend:
"hof van Heden"

Hi Tool.
Since when do they have a VR? There used to be aa DDA profile, and when that one was gone they had a D&R (I think?).
Are you working there? Or just doing a project?

[Neveboy]

Having just bought 16 x 1084 modules (Yes they are re-issues, the 8014 frame I bought will more than do for vintage criteria!)

I'm wondering having read the comments in this post regarding originals and re-issues..... surely in twenty or thirty years time, the re-issues will sound just as good as the vintage modules do today !!

[raal]

Originally Posted by Neveboy

Having just bought 16 x 1084 modules (Yes they are re-issues, the 8014 frame I bought will more than do for vintage criteria!)

pics.

[Neveboy]

Originally Posted by raal

pics.

In the shop at the moment Raal, then into a crate and over the sea to me in Ireland.

Will of course post some pics as soon as its plugged up and warm again

[raal]

Originally Posted by Neveboy

In the shop at the moment Raal, then into a crate and over the sea to me in Ireland.

Will of course post some pics as soon as its plugged up and warm again

please do! many congratulations to you sir.

[soentkensound]

Originally Posted by Gie-Sound

Hi Tool.
Since when do they have a VR? There used to be aa DDA profile, and when that one was gone they had a D&R (I think?).
Are you working there? Or just doing a project?

The owner bought the neve e few months ago.
The former owner was airstudios. Besides working in my own studio,
I'm going to work there too.
I love the desk.

groeten uit "het gebied om Amsterdam"

[Gie-Sound]

Originally Posted by tool

The owner bought the neve e few months ago.
The former owner was airstudios. Besides working in my own studio,
I'm going to work there too.
I love the desk.

groeten uit "het gebied om Amsterdam"

I called him. I am going to check it out soon.
ThanX for the hint!

Druk aan het werk?

[soentkensound]

Originally Posted by Gie-Sound

I called him. I am going to check it out soon.
ThanX for the hint!

Druk aan het werk?

No thanks Bro,

Hope to see you there soon.



Jaha , steeds meer werk. Lekker.
En Jij?

[De chromium cob]

Originally Posted by GURU

Geoff, is this the console you are referring to? Soon to be restored and residing in a studo in the Northeast US.

Yeah, baby! The Neve Air Montserrat console ... Soon to be installed in the Great Hall studio at Allaire once Ken refurbs it... I cant wait to check that sucker out!

http://www.allairestudios.com/studio...thall_air.html

[Ibvee]

Originally Posted by tool

Hi,

I just started to work in a room that has a VRL legend:
"hof van Heden"

Tx! That's just an amazing vibe there! really very cool, however not very close to the 'gebied rond Amsterdam'...

For the interested, here's a link: http://www.hofvanheden.com/
The Neve isn't yet in the equipment list, but is on the pictures of the control room.

[nandoanalog]

Actually 1073 was invented by alliens. Rupert neve is an allien. They want to controll our minds.

[Jack P]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

Actually 1073 was invented by alliens. Rupert neve is an allien. They want to controll our minds.

I didn't know Rupert was a Scientologist

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by robot gigante

Maybe it will be fashionable to hate on API's next.

Yes PLEASE!
I recently discovered the joys of API and I'm desperate for the price of used 2488s to drop to somewhere affordable (to me).