500 series preamp most similar to 1073...?

[MrKidd]

Hi!

Is there any 500 series preamp that is similar/close to the 1073 character?


/Peter

[gm5k]

my guess would be a custom "neve-ish" pre from Eisen Audio. im sure it doesnt sound EXACTLY like a neve, but i would think thats your best shot in the 500 series. mine should be ready pretty soon also might want to check out the OSA MP1-L3

[ToneRanger]

I'm sure we'll get flamed, but I'm interested as well..
Or maybe put it this way, which 500 series module has some of the basic character of the "N camp" rather than the "A camp".

[gm5k]

Originally Posted by ToneRanger

I'm sure we'll get flamed, but I'm interested as well..
Or maybe put it this way, which 500 series module has some of the basic character of the "N camp" rather than the "A camp".

yea. we will...the neve sound being in the 500 series seems to be a very touchy subject remember on GS you have to say its "neve-ish" "neve-esque", "kinda like a neve", "some definite neve qualities!", "about 2/5 of the lowend of a neve"...just some examples to avoid getting banned from the site...juuuust kidding!

but seriously, Eisen is the only one who uses the 10468 transformer in his custom pre for the 500 series...so thats gotta be a good thing, right? i know theres a bunch of other bells and whistles that go into it all, but ive heard nothing but awesome things about his pres.

[MrKidd]

Originally Posted by ToneRanger

I'm sure we'll get flamed, but I'm interested as well..
Or maybe put it this way, which 500 series module has some of the basic character of the "N camp" rather than the "A camp".

Yeah, thats basically what I'm intrested in aswell.

/Peter

[MrKidd]

Originally Posted by gm5k

yea. we will...the neve sound being in the 500 series seems to be a very touchy subject remember on GS you have to say its "neve-ish" "neve-esque", "kinda like a neve", "some definite neve qualities!", "about 2/5 of the lowend of a neve"...just some examples to avoid getting banned from the site...juuuust kidding!

but seriously, Eisen is the only one who uses the 10468 transformer in his custom pre for the 500 series...so thats gotta be a good thing, right? i know theres a bunch of other bells and whistles that go into it all, but ive heard nothing but awesome things about his pres.

Eisen webpage...?

Thanks,

Peter

[gm5k]

Originally Posted by MrKidd

Eisen webpage...?

Thanks,

Peter

http://www.eisenaudio.com/ea/index.p...tpage&Itemid=1

you can either get DIY kits from him and build the pre yourself, or have him custom build you a pre...endless choices of transformers and opamps. i think my next will be a 312 w/ jensen input transformer and a melcor 1731 opamp...thats gonna be one mean preamp.

[uncle duncan]

I have the Eisen 'neve-ish- pre, and the osa L3, and the A-designs P1, and the Eisen is hands down winner in the vocal department. Beefy and sizzly at the same time. Makes the other two sound kind of bland in comparison. The only 500 pre I've heard about that might get close is the Purple Biz, which has two gain stages, so you can dial in more color if you want to. But whether or not it's a 'neve-ish' color, I couldn't tell you. The only experience I've had with a real Neve is watching Neve Campbell movies.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by gm5k

but seriously, Eisen is the only one who uses the 10468 transformer in his custom pre for the 500 series...so thats gotta be a good thing, right?

Who cares? I can put a 10468 into any 500 series preamp, and it's still not going to sound anything like a Neve... really it's not even close. I can put Ferrari fenders on my Jeep, but it's not going to drive like a Ferrari. Just because it is a part that is used in a Neve module, does not mean it's the major contributor to the sound. Tanulum caps probably contribute more than the 10468. But, it's really the mix of all the parts that make the mojo.

For transformers, it's the L01166 output transformer that is most contributing to the transformer sound of a Neve module. Call me when someone figures out a way to make that one work...

Until then you're all wasting your time trying to find the Neve sound in a 500 series module.

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

I have the Eisen 'neve-ish- pre, and the osa L3, and the A-designs P1, and the Eisen is hands down winner in the vocal department. Beefy and sizzly at the same time. Makes the other two sound kind of bland in comparison.

You're Eisen pre is more sizzly than the P1? My experience is that the P1 and Pacifica are more sizzly than my 1073's... By sizzly, I'm assuming you mean brighter in the upper high end?

[gm5k]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

I have the Eisen 'neve-ish- pre, and the osa L3, and the A-designs P1, and the Eisen is hands down winner in the vocal department. Beefy and sizzly at the same time. Makes the other two sound kind of bland in comparison.

good to hear. man am i excited for my Eisen pre. its gonna have neve knobs on it and everything

[gm5k]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Who cares? I can put a 10468 into any 500 series preamp, and it's still not going to sound anything like a Neve... really it's not even close. I can put Ferrari fenders on my Jeep, but it's not going to drive like a Ferrari. Just because it is a part that is used in a Neve module, does not mean it's the major contributor to the sound. Tanulum caps probably contribute more than the 10468. But, it's really the mix of all the parts that make the mojo.

For transformers, it's the L01166 output transformer that is most contributing to the transformer sound of a Neve module. Call me when someone figures out a way to make that one work...

Until then you're all wasting your time trying to find the Neve sound in a 500 series module.

oh ill call you...notice how i said "its gotta be a good thing, right?" as in im taking a guess...relaaaax... all i know is what people say about his pres. seems hes doing something right. oops meant to put this in the previous post. sorry

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by gm5k

oh ill call you...notice how i said "its gotta be a good thing, right?" as in im taking a guess...relaaaax... all i know is what people say about his pres. seems hes doing something right.

Look I understand, and I know what you're saying, and I'm not doubting that it's a quality piece. I've just seen these threads for the last couple of years with people looking for a 500 series Neve type preamp, and they always end in disappointment for those chasing that sound.

The point I'm trying to relate to everyone is that the 10468 does not make any preamp sound "more" like a Neve. You can put that tranny in any mic preamp, and it will not make it more Neve. What the rest of the circuit is comprised of is much more important. If the only thing that makes this pre like a Neve in design is that it uses the 10468, then it will quite likely not sound like a Neve.

Pop the side off of yours and tell me if you see something that looks like the thing all the way to the right:


That is called a transistor and is a major contributor to the Neve sound.

[gm5k]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

If the only thing that makes this pre like a Neve in design is that it uses the 10468, then it will quite likely not sound like a Neve.

that i cant say. im not sure what else he puts in it. actually pretty curious!

oh and mine wont be shipped till next week i believe. but ill try and report about this when i do get it. maybe uncle duncan could fill us in. or maybe Jens will see this thread and tell us what the deal is... oooohhh Jeeennns...

[Huntley Miller]

It was mentioned in a thread a few months ago that Vintage Design are scaling their modules down to fit 500 series racks.

[gm5k]

Originally Posted by cepia

It was mentioned in a thread a few months ago that Vintage Design are scaling their modules down to fit 500 series racks.

do you have a link to their website? thanks!

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by gm5k

do you have a link to their website? thanks!

http://www.vintagedesign.se/en06/enframe2.htm

These modules are not 500 series format and don't work off of the same voltage. They would require a complete re-design to work in 500 series format. It has nothing to do with making the module itself smaller or larger, and all to do with making it work on the bi-polar API psu.

I'm not holding my breath for someone to make the circuit work on this PSU. Maybe one day, but until then we could better spend our time pondering our place in the universe or why is the sky blue, etc....

[Huntley Miller]

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...ght=500+series

post #11

[Tim Farrant]

To ACCURATELY reproduce a 1073 style preamp, you need a +24V dc rail. The 500 series is +/-15V. You could try and run the 1073 circuit on the split supplies, but then it would be different. You could fit a DC-DC convertor to step the voltage up, but there would be noise issues with this, and I doubt you could fit that and the preamp circuitry onto the card, unless it was 2 slots wide.

Tony is correct, a big part of the sound of the 1073 is the 2N3055 output transistor and the transformer used in conjuction with it. These transformers are physically large, and would need 2 slots to accomodate it.

But, anything's possible.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by cepia

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...ght=500+series

post #11

Cool.... It says they are working on making a module for that format, it doesn't say it will be the same as their other modules.

Also from post #10 in the same thread... Jens from Eisen says he's using the Purple op amp and steel transformer. So, it appears he is not using a "2N3055" transistor based design.

This does not mean he is not making a good product... just that it is not a Neve transistor circuit. It shares a similar op amp design to what many of the other 500 series modules have.

[gm5k]

we need to find someone with an Eisen "neve-ish" pre and a real neve as well. A-B test...? i think so! id do the test myself, but of course, i aint got no real neve on me

[EisenAudio]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Also from post #10 in the same thread... Jens from Eisen says he's using the Purple op amp and steel transformer. So, it appears he is not using a transistor based design.

I had a long, intelligent, and professional response prepared until I was irked by this bit of ignorance. You, sir, have been severely misinformed. You'd be wise to educate yourself on the subject of discrete transistor design before making another erroneous statement.

Concerning sonic authenticity, I never said my "neve-ish" 500 pre sounds like a 1073, only that I think it possesses some of the same rich qualities. I believe it was a customer who came to the former conclusion.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by EisenAudio

I had a long, intelligent, and professional response prepared until I was irked by this bit of ignorance. You, sir, have been severely misinformed. You'd be wise to educate yourself on the subject of discrete transistor design before making another erroneous statement.

Concerning sonic authenticity, I never said my "neve-ish" 500 pre sounds like a 1073, only that I think it possesses some of the same rich qualities. I believe it was a customer who came to the former conclusion.

Shit, after reading that quoted sentence you are correct.. I should have said specifically "2N3055 transistor based design", and that is what I meant (I have since added the model number to avoid confusion). But, you would be incorrect in your statement that I am misinformed... I am fairly proficient on these types of designs but don't claim to be the expert by any means. The Purple op amps, like other op amps are comprised of transistors, but your pre doesn't use the 2n3055 transistor in question (that was the point of the post). That particular transistor definitely has a sound (whether we're referring to the Motorola, ST, or ON Semiconductors versions of that transistor). Either way, if you read my posts you would realize that I do know a good amount on the subject. So, please don't accuse me of being misinformed or tell me to educate myself because of a typo...

And agreed, it was a customer who came to that conclusion that your pre "probably" sounds like a Neve 1073, he has also yet to receive this pre and was basing this off speculation... that is what sparked all of this conversation. I never accused you of making these claims or said that it is not a good product, because I simply have not seen or heard one.

Feel free to point to any flaws in my logic in regards to the Neve designs we have been talking about, as I enjoy intelligent conversation on the subject and regularly debate these topics with friends. Maybe we could talk via PM, as what we are discussing right now is already beyond what many here would understand except for the Geekslutz and preamp designers like Tim.

Also attached for those interested is a picture of the item in question... Here is one of my ST 2N3055 transistors for those who are a little lost with all this talk.

[gm5k]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

And agreed, it was a customer who came to that conclusion that your pre "probably" sounds like a Neve 1073, he has also yet to receive this pre and was basing this off speculation...

ahem...if youre referring to me, i told the guy who started the thread that Eisen was probably his best bet in the 500 series. didnt tell the guy he was gonna get a 1073.

i still wanna hear Jen's awesome explanation of the pre

[AdamJay]

why on earth would you want a 1073 sound in a 500 series module, when the P1 would blow it away anyway?

[Aearth]

Originally Posted by AdamJay

why on earth would you want a 1073 sound in a 500 series module, when the P1 would blow it away anyway?

Funny you should say this. I have a couple of Chandler LTD-1 and P-1's and prefer the P-1 on vocals.

Nick

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by gm5k

ahem...if youre referring to me, i told the guy who started the thread that Eisen was probably his best bet in the 500 series. didnt tell the guy he was gonna get a 1073.

i still wanna hear Jen's awesome explanation of the pre

Agreed... that's why I put the word "probably" in there. uncle duncan said he didn't know if it sounded like a Neve. So, I assumed it was you he was referring to...

Originally Posted by AdamJay

why on earth would you want a 1073 sound in a 500 series module, when the P1 would blow it away anyway?

thumbsup I can't say that I disagree.. The P1 is

[AMIEL]

[QUOTE=TonyBelmont;948898]Who cares? I can put a 10468 into any 500 series preamp, and it's still not going to sound anything like a Neve... really it's not even close. I can put Ferrari fenders on my Jeep, but it's not going to drive like a Ferrari. Just because it is a part that is used in a Neve module, does not mean it's the major contributor to the sound. Tanulum caps probably contribute more than the 10468. But, it's really the mix of all the parts that make the mojo.

QUOTE]

TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!

[AMIEL]

If you want a "neve-ish pre" buy a Chameleon labs!!!

Also , how many 1073 sounds kind of differnt between them? just because are old....
Also seems that nobody can build a modern pre that sound better? I don't get these Neve-ish aristocrats and snobs!!!
Are so many new great pre amps now! is ridiculous still thinking that anything new can be better!

I want a great sound not a Neveish sound only!

[Tom H]

Common guys apparently it's just not there (yet) and in the end it really doesn't mather that much does it?
Not everything can and has to be 500 series, there's always gonna be standard rackmounted gear. It's not like a 1073dpa or a clone takes up that much rackspace.. In the end it's about how it sounds right?

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by AdamJay

why on earth would you want a 1073 sound in a 500 series module, when the P1 would blow it away anyway?

Why is everyone so down on the Eisen pre when they've never even heard it? Open you minds people! I have the P1 and the Eisen, and they both sound good, but for different things. The P1 has a more 'open' sound. I guess you could say there's more 1K-5K (I'm just guessing on the K's) while the Eisen has way more low end. Perhaps it is the low end that makes the high end seem all sparkly, because the midrange gets masked? I use the Eisen when I want more of a 'finished' sound for a male lead vocal. Or if I want more sparkle out of a mic I use the Eisen and use the hpf filter on my compressor. The P1 also has a nice high end, but there is so much midrange, the sparkle is less obvious.
If someone is looking for that clacky midrangey sound of the Chameleon, which is supposed to be similar to a Neve, I don't think the Eisen is going to give it to them, so maybe it's not as close to a Neve as a purist would want. But it still does something that my P1 or my L3 doesn't do, which is, put a sheen on top and add beef on the bottom.