Another Question for Michael Wagener

[Jose Mrochek]

I thought I was to PM you but I think other people´s opion is valid to.

OK, here´s the thing.. I´ve been in the process of forming a band for the past year. The record was mastered in January 2006, It´s November and I cant get 3 musicians to be on the same page with me. I fired 4 guitarists, 2 bass player, and tried 3 drummers. The worst part of the stupid situation i´m in is that THE PROBLEM is not musical! Some played better some played worse, but the problem is

1.- one is never on-time for practice.. who ever it may be, one out of the 3 cant be there on time NEVER. (screws up the vibe for the rest of us)

2.- If they are good musicians and on time and dont miss practice, they have an ATTITUDE problem.

3.- Lies. plain and simple, don´t keep their promises.

Sad thing is I´m starting to feel I may lower my standards on the musical part, to get the ¨better people¨. Do I really have to go for the bad bass player because he is there on time and is responsible ?

Ok, and why I ask you Michael is because you have seen it all and probably know it all to, what should I do ??? just wait for that magical day where I find 4 people that are really cool people, kick ass musicians, and responsible and respectfull of others people time and patience ? should I suck it all in and always keep the better players no matter their attitude ? How do you approach a situation like this ? My album is ready a year ago!! and yesterday I fired a bass player. Back to square one....

Thanks for any imput you may have towards building a solid band with people that can actually get along !

P.S .. by musicians I mean hired musicians, not a band as in creative imput to make more albums together. I can´t even begin to think what chaos that would be like.. thanks!

[midnightsun]

When you make reference to hiring musicians for what clearly sounds like your adventure, are you actually paying an hourly fee for all of their efforts to include meetings, rehearsal, and recording?

Generally, you get what you pay for. If you are cutting healthy checks and your workers aren't professional something doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if you as the leader are asking your band members to have "faith" in you and that the payola is just around the corner that could be the problem.

[Matthew Murray]

I'm not Michael, but I can share my own experience for what it's worth. I've been "building" a band for four years. I've had similar experiences as you with various commitment and attitude incompatibilities. And then one day, mere months ago, we ended up with a line up that is a dream come true.

Everybody is committed, everybody is passionate and everybody is incredibly talented.

Don't settle. If you persist long enough, you'll get that group of people together that naturally fits together. When you think about it, getting three or four or five people to work together this intimately on such a regular basis and in such a personal medium ... well, you have to get lucky to find harmony. I was ready to give up and settle last year. Don't do it. Focus on your writing and when the time is right, all will align.

Think it's fuddle duddle? Yeah, probably is.

[seaneldon]

the best advice i can give is to play and tour with friends.

the best advice i can give is to also never play and tour with friends because when the band breaks up you don't have friends anymore and you spend the next two years writing but not recording a difficult and awkward instrumental mathrock solo record.

[Dave Martin]

Why are you having a hard time hiring guys who will do what you want? I'm assuming that you pay them for rehearsals and for gigs If they don't show up on time (and you're paying them), replace 'em with guys who WILL show up on time. What other 'vibe' do you need from them? After all, you don't want their input or opinions on how the songs should go - you just want them to play your record like you recorded it.... You don't even need guys who LIKE you - just competent musicians who will play what's on the record. It shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks to put musicians together and rehearse them for live gigs.

Of course, if you don't have the money to pay the musicians for rehearsals and gigs,then you've got problems. What are you offering them to make it worth spending time and energy on what is essentially YOUR project?

[Grizzly]

Hi Jose, just my 0.02 cts from my own experience :

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

I´ve been in the process of forming a band for the past year.

It took me 10 years to get a solid band commited - it's a very long process I think, as long as learning to play an insrument, and weirdly, I must say it took me 10 years to get myself as involved as we all are today !...

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

1.- one is never on-time for practice.. who ever it may be, one out of the 3 cant be there on time NEVER. (screws up the vibe for the rest of us)

So, he's not a professionnal musician, hire pros...

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

2.- If they are good musicians and on time and dont miss practice, they have an ATTITUDE problem.

What about YOUR attitude ? - are you easy to get along with ? - are you very demanding or do you let them fully express themselves musically ? - do you feel in the same boat as the guys you're playing with ? - are you obsessed by your own stuff ? - why are you by yourself only on your website ?... (nothing personal, dude, I've asked myself those too !...)

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

3.- Lies. plain and simple, don´t keep their promises.

What kind of lies ? - What kind of promises ? - only prophets, politicians and lovers are dumb enough to make promises - musicians just need groove, buddies and freedom more than anything, maybe that's what YOU should promise them. Then if it comes along with paid gigs, it's even better of course !...

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

Sad thing is I´m starting to feel I may lower my standards on the musical part, to get the ¨better people¨. Do I really have to go for the bad bass player because he is there on time and is responsible ?

If you start to hire a bad musician just because he's a good guy, it'll never work for anyone in the band and it's unrespectful for the guy himself... And you can learn a WHOLE LOT from musicians that are better than you actually are - I noticed that the band leader is rarely the best musician in the band, but more of the one who knows how to highlight each band member's human and musical qualities...

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

and yesterday I fired a bass player. Back to square one....

You sound like you fire people a whole lot - maybe you oughtta think twice before hiring them in the first place... "never marry a woman you don't wannna be divorced from..." my buddy's mom would say...

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

P.S .. by musicians I mean hired musicians, not a band as in creative imput to make more albums together. I can´t even begin to think what chaos that would be like.. thanks!

Music IS chaos, alchemy comes from chaos... You may find all your answers to your problems in your post-scriptum - as scary and painful as it may get, try to set up a full "creative" band, little by little, and the sum of y'all may eventually lead to a very exiting "ensemble"... And then your music mates will start to appear as the best musicians you've ever played with as well as the coolest people on earth...

But what do I know, really ?...

Good luck for your quest Jose !

Olivier.

[cortisol]

If you can get out there on the gigging music scene then you can make friends and influence people. This is how you get to gig with other bands get recognition from the working musicians in your area etc.

If you are professional and friendly, then your reputation will spread and you will find musicians make themselves available to you to keep your band gigging.

It seems like you are dictating terms to musicians who haven't come up with their own parts to your songs.

I'm getting the impression that it's your way or the highway. In which case you will need to offer good amounts of cash to people who can be in and out of situations like yours ie musos who read charts and make a few notes and go from gig to gig with different bands all the time. Musos like that tend not to look the part or play the style with enough depth. They are usually very schooled players such as former music students who have studied on jazz courses at college level. You have to pat them and have gigs for them.

It seems to me that you might not be the man for the job of band leader. A band leader uses good communication and a touch of charm/charisma to get people doing what they need to be doing.

An uptight singersongwriter with a tendancy to vent stress at the reheasing musicians and without the words, experience and ability to analyse/empathise with musicians learning to perform together might not be the best person to lead.

Hire yourself a Musical Director. Find this personwho has the skills and the ability to hire musicians for the project and let that person get you to where you need to get. He/she works for you and he manages the situation for you. This person will have the contacts and relationships with the pro musicians around where you live and will make this far less painful.

Good luck,
cortisol

[Jose Mrochek]

Many good points, thank you all. Let me clarify..

These are not professional musicians, we don´t have real deal sessionist musicians down here in Bolivia. Even though some are pretty good.

My deal with them is a set rate per gig, no matter if I make or loose money on that specific gig. (chances are I will loose on most but thats not the point) They ALL think it´s a great deal and happily accept my offer. I´m not a cheap ass, trust me.. I take care of people ¨I hire¨. So this is not a problem. It´s not about money. All I ask for is 3 weeks of rehearsals 5 times a week for 2 hours a day. Get the 10 songs down and 8 covers and go from there.

I´m getting heavy rotation of a video of mine on national tv down here, so I´m pretty well known.. even though I may suck or not. The first meetings with these guys are always great.

It´s the compromise I have problems with. ¨WOW thanks for your offer, ofcourse I can I´d love to be in your band, I think you guys rock, wow.. awesome, 2pm ? sure I´ll be there.......

[mwagener]

It seems to me that the problem is the actual musician pool at where you are. I live in Nashville and if you hire musicians here, they will show up on time, play great and then go home or to the next gig, but they are not cheap. You won't get them to do 3 weeks of rehearsals 5 times a week for 2 hours a day, that would cost you millions But the guys here don't need to rehearse more than once or twice for a live gig, unless you are asking them to do certain physical moves in cooridination etc. For studio sessions the guys come in, see/hear the material for the first time, sit down and play 10 songs in one afternoon, and it all sounds great. Again mucho $$$.

I think what you are looking for is more of a "real" band situation. 3 weeks 5 times a week is a major comitment, which nails them down to almost just your project, so they would have to make enough money to pay their living expenses in full, otherwise they have to do other jobs for their income and that's where the "being late" comes in.

Have you considered to move your project to a city where you CAN find good, reliable musicians. If there are no goods at where you are, move to where the goods are. Again, I think your main problem is the pool of available musicans in yourt area.

[cortisol]

18 songs in 3 weeks with 15 rehearsals @ 2 hours a day! That is nuts. That would be guaranteed to burn anyone out and its unnecessary and unrealistic.

Something like that would work of Jazz standard and blues and country but even then 15 X 2hrs rehearsals in 3 weeks is nuts.

Try 2 rehearsals a week whilst the songs are being learned. Allow the musicians to listen to the songs and absorb the melodies and arrangements and to practice anything requiring them to develop more technique.

People need time for themselves, time with their families to conduct life stuff. Being dragged out 5 nights a week for rehearsal will burn most good local players out.

Allow more time. Give it 4 to 5 weeks. There is the learning period and then there is the band learning how to listen to one another and be a band period. You can increase rehearsals closer to the times you will gig. Then maybe step up to 3X per week.

Rather than 2 hours a night go for 4 hours a night and take a nice long break in the middle to have a meal or a drink and a chat.

Peace,
cortisol

[Blue May]

Hi...

I thought i'd just comment from a session musicians point of view... When i started out, i worked for some people who's deal seemed very similar, Flat rate for gigs, but no rehearsal money. which is fine if, as other people have pointed out, you only do one rehearsal for the gig, one solid day of reheasal should be ample time to rehearse a set if the musicians are up to standards, However i was expected to come to reheasals 5 days in a row before giging, and because i was new to it all an exited by the prospect of being a 'proffesional musician' i would accept the offer in a flash... however that exitment wears off pretty damn fast when you realise that one gig at the end of the week has to cover you for the whole week.... I know how frustrating it is when musicians seem to not take things seriously, be it turning up on time or being awkward...

My best advice would be - instead of doing 3 weeks 2 hours p/day... do 2 - 3 full days (depending on the quality of the musicians) 2 hours seems awfully short to get anything done... Musicians are funny creatures, i often find the first hour of a session tends to be a write off because of setting up and general chat etc.. IMO Reheasals always seem a lot more productive when there is time to get on a roll with songs... i find the first song of the session generally takes the longest to get right, then the rest fall in to place as everyone warms up!
Also if the musicians are not exactly pro players, having band line ups change all the time can be very unsettling, a) because less experienced guys take longer to fuse with eachother and b) they will know in there mind that there position is not secure and often that can lead to people not taking things very seriously.

Good Luck

[Jose Mrochek]

Wow, I should have posted this month´s ago.. You guys are really making me think here thank you!!

Michael as always, thanks for chiming in. You are totally right, i´m trying to get something from ¨nothing¨. If I could get the kind of musicians you are talking about I would sell everything and anything to be able to do so. Unfortunately I´m not in the economic situation to do so, or move to a city like that. At least not in this point in time.

To the person that asked why i´m alone on my website is exactly this. I decided to do this album alone because the past 10 years and various different ¨creative¨partners got me more and more frustrated. And the results I got from this album I think are way superior than stuff I did with other people. Again, I know i´m not re-inventing music, or this is the best project out there or excellent in anyway.. but to me was a great effort, something I put my heart and soul in.

So I explain this to the people I want to hire. And they know, that at least in this Country they won´t find another dude as serious as me. I´m not being cocky i´m just being realistic. And that is the main reason I even had the chance to ¨try out¨ so many different people.

I don´t think 5 times a week is a good idea either, the reason I did that was because people won´t practice at home. They rehearse at rehearsal time.

Anyway thank you all for your imput, you guys have no clue how much this thread has helped me in the few hours.. couldn´t sleep last night thinking about the opinions posted here. very valuable wise opinions, I´ll rethink things. thanks!

[Jules]

Are you paying for rehersals?

(that has been asked above and I think the answer is no, you are only paying for the future gigs)

If not, there is your problem IMHO

Whoa! Hang on I just saw this...

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

All I ask for is 3 weeks of rehearsals 5 times a week for 2 hours a day. Get the 10 songs down and 8 covers and go from there.

For no money?

"go from there' ?

tutt

I suggest you provide financial motivation during this 3 week work period...

[pan60]

no way would do that kind of rehearsal.
not even.
i just cant see that kind of rehearsal for a pro musician.
many musician will listen to a tape or disk of the material in advance and thats about it when dose the gig start, where, and how should i dress.

[pan60]

if you are trying to put together a band then find some musicians that are passionate about the music you are doing then you can weed through and find some commitment possibly.

[mtstudios@charter]

A little off subject but relevant.

In most genres of music, if you are over 24 years old, record labels won't even be interested in what you are selling. They might push the envelope to late twenties if they think you are an extraordinary songwriter musician. The Country Music Industry does not always follow these rules. So Nashville is not a bad idea for the maturing musician.
If I was putting together a project it would be in my interest to sell records to support my players, otherwise it would just be a hobby. I am only assuming you are over 24 because you are paying players, and a real young band does not have that responsibility of making a living.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

[ersatz]

Originally Posted by Jules

I suggest you provide financial motivation during this 3 week work period...

additionally - what kind of incentive are you providing further down the line other than the promise of future paying gigs and potential exposure? i.e., If things really take off with your project, are there any incentives and assurances from your end that the musicians will share in your success? Either in the form of share in profits (publishing, CD sales, merchandising, etc...) or an increased pay scale for gigs/rehearsals, etc...

I agree with everyone here that the rehearsal schedule you've indicated is an extremely large committment - whether these are pro musicians or not. Basically, you really need to look at it from their perspective - but in order to do so you need to find out what their perspective actually is - not what you assume it to be.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Jules

I suggest you provide financial motivation during this 3 week work period...

So I guess it comes to this : (

My brother always tell´s me this, I just don´t find it logical to pay for Non-professional musicians. Specialy if I don´t have the money to spare.

I wouldn´t have a problem paying if I knew that rehearsal day comes and everyone is prepared. I´d be more than happy to pay for that. But to pay, and have the same results will only make me 10 times as furious.

But on the other seems to be the only way around it.. sad to think that money is everything. What happened to the ¨i love music philosophy¨. I personaly helped other people, even if I disliked what they did for the pleasure of helping another musician. Never got a dime but it was gratifying to help. sucks..

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by mtstudi@pacbell

A little off subject but relevant.

In most genres of music, if you are over 24 years old, record labels won't even be interested in what you are selling. They might push the envelope to late twenties if they think you are an extraordinary songwriter musician. The Country Music Industry does not always follow these rules. So Nashville is not a bad idea for the maturing musician.
If I was putting together a project it would be in my interest to sell records to support my players, otherwise it would just be a hobby. I am only assuming you are over 24 because you are paying players, and a real young band does not have that responsibility of making a living.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

I´m just trying to have a decent band that wouldn´t be ashamed of playing in NY or LA or China or whatever. I´m 29, I honestly don´t care about expiration dates. Whatever comes will come. All I can do is give my best.

If I have to think about the Reality of making money in this business, I would have quit many years ago.

Personaly I hate the word ¨hobby¨, that´s for stamp collecting.. music is my life.

[gtichy]

I don't want this to sound mean, but I can't believe that your musicians don't quit before you fire them! I have been a professional guitarist since high school and I have never been asked to make any commitment like that.

Several times a year I will get hired for "vanity" projects like yours - a songwriter/performer wants to showcase his or her material. I usually receive the tunes in advance and do 1-3 rehearsals before the show(s). Sometimes the rehearsals are payed ($20/hour or $50/for the evening), but if I like the music I may only ask for gas money, or what ever. This also depends on what the gig pays. Attitudes are great, pro musicians are on time, the client always is repectful and asks for artistic input and allows some freedom on what to play.

To ask for uncompinsated rehearsals for that amount of time, not allowing any artistic involvement, and to demand punctuality and smiles the whole time is NUTS!!! I have never heard of any musician at any skill level working in these conditions, except for school kids.

I am not in a major music market or a "session" guy. I am just a working guitar player in a small city. Be respectful, be flexible, hire compitant musicians, and put yourself in others shoes: Would you ever devote that kind of time to someone else music?

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by gtichy

Would you ever devote that kind of time to someone else music?

Yes if I liked what they did, man even if I didn´t like what they did but where nice people.

You bring an excellent point, that´s why the first thing I ask them is

Do you like the album ? Do you see a future with me ? Do You think this project could be financially lucrative for you after rehearsals ?

YES and YES and YES , everytime.

I would ask for 1 day rehearsal if everyone would come prepared, do you think I like to rehearse so much ? I´m desperate to play out. thanks for your point of view, good points!

[Mario-C.]

don't you think you're asking too much from your crew ?

" I just don´t find it logical to pay for Non-professional musicians. Specialy if I don´t have the money to spare."

why is that ? work is work amateur or pro, if you're not willing to pay for their services you simply have no right to complain.
it sounds as if you don't even value their help at all ... (I may have misinterpreted your statement of course) but under such conditions why should they value working with you ? on one hand you want to run your project like a very serious act (which is cool) but on the other you don't have the infrastructure to materialize it ... asking a hired musician to deliver real things (like his time and work) in exchange for unreal real things (future gigs, rock star fantasy trips) is extremely unfair ...

you have to offer something more than a sucker's deal to get what you want,
pay with bananas and you'll hire lots of monkeys

[tho_dk]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

Yes if I liked what they did, man even if I didn´t like what they did but where nice people.

You bring an excellent point, that´s why the first thing I ask them is

Do you like the album ? Do you see a future with me ? Do You think this project could be financially lucrative for you after rehearsals ?

YES and YES and YES , everytime.

I would ask for 1 day rehearsal if everyone would come prepared, do you think I like to rehearse so much ? I´m desperate to play out. thanks for your point of view, good points!

Okay... I'll try and sum my thoughts up on this...
First: You're asking some people to use A LOT of time on rehearsing... Around 30 hours without any pay. The gig has to pay EXTREMELY well to compensate for this...

Second: The payment they do get is not coming right now but after future gigs so they don't know how much they'll get paid or when (maybe they know the first couple of gigs but after that they may hope or think, but they dont KNOW). When other stuff pops up as it constantly does in everybodys lives this will be a big motivational problem...

Thrird: And I dont mean to be harsh, but this point is extremely important ... You have to find out yourself what the deal is: On one hand you're complaining that your musicians arent acting proffesional (dont show up on time, have attitudeproblems etc). On the other hand you say that you don't see why you should pay for rehearsals with non-pro musicians. To sum this up you are asking musicians to act proffesional towards you but you demand the right not to treat them as proffesionals by not paying for rehearsals. The only exception is that you seem to accept that they arent well-prepared for rehearsal. You seem to feel that it is generous on your part to accept this but I'm convinced it just makes things worse cos when people arent prepared it wastes everybodys time... So you have a situation where each musician not only has to attend a very long rehearsal-period but also has to be listening to other musicians that arent prepared ... and that sucks for everyone! So find out: Pro or non-pro!

Fourth: As already stated you are asking for quite a commitment from some other mucisians. A commitment that I think normally could only be expected from genuine band-members. Apart from money the ONLY other motivation you can offer is the right to having creative input on the music (and I say ONLY cos you being a nice guy is not motivation enough for a serious musician for that amount of time). So maybe you should look there: Maybe you should allow people some creative input ... limited off course, not on everything off course, but still enough to let them feel they're also expressing some of their own musical personality... Trust me, it might not sound just like the record but if you find the right guys (girls) hey... it might even sound better than the record!

Btw I'm a songwriter and band-leader (or what-ever you like to call it...) myself so I'm not unfamiliar with the problems...

Hope it works out for you!

Best regards Thomas

[Jose Mrochek]

Thank you all for your posts. I decided I will pay for rehearsal time.. I´ll post the results. Thanks again for the input and clearing things up for me.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Mario-C.

asking a hired musician to deliver real things (like his time and work) in exchange for unreal real things (future gigs, rock star fantasy trips) is extremely unfair ...

don´t know about the rockstar fantasy trips, but I have like 15 gigs allready set up in different cities. for the next 1 or 2 months. I can´t give these venues a date because the band is not ready. And their pay per gig is the highest anyone pays around here. Theres a couple of folkloric bands here that make 2k or 3k a night, and pay their musicians 50% less then what I´m offering per gig. I´ll probably not make a dime because I´m planning on spending all the money the band makes on a decent light and sound system. But their pay is always the same. If you think this is not fair, well.. I don´t know what is fair.

In this business where it´s really not a business when you start up, theres some give and take.

[pan60]

best of luck Jose Mrochek persistence goes a long way's.
try not not to let it get you down as it can be difficult to get the right group of individuals together.

[Sizzleboy]

OK, I've skimmed through the whole thread. Lot's of good advice here.

I still don't understand what you are asking for though. If you want professional caliber musicians that will work for the promise of fame, this is an unrealistic expectation. The very definition of a professional musician is one that plays for money. As many said, your practice schedule is unrealistic. I'm not sure that any professional musician would devote that much time to a project with no creative input (even for pay). If your CD is already recorded, you simply need to get the recording to the musicians, have them learn the songs on their own, get together for a few practices, then hit the road. If you have a multitrack recording, you could even make custom mixes for each player to isolate the parts you want them to play.

The only time I have ever practiced with a band for 5 days a week is when we were writing songs, and the WHOLE BAND was involved in the creative input. That is to me what a BAND is about. Seems to me you want the best of both worlds. It's an unrealistic expectation.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Sizzleboy

If your CD is already recorded, you simply need to get the recording to the musicians, have them learn the songs on their own, get together for a few practices, then hit the road. .

This was always the plan! Plus my stuff is so easy to learn to... BUT THEY WON´T PRACTICE AT HOME! Amateurs man, these are not professionals.. the term professional does not exist in my country (Bolivia) . So like you said, learn the damm songs have a few practices and hit the road ? sounds easy right ? at least that´s what I thought......

The decision to have 5 practices a week, was because I rented a venue.. yes.. I wanted to sound good during practice to not expect surprises live once we can all hear each other! NOBODY takes the time or money to do that, and these guys know it.. I presented them with a package, and gigs and a good paying rate per gig, and they ALL seem thrilled about it, that´s what they all say.. but when the time comes the issues start.

Have you heard of any bands that came out of Bolivia ? NOPE, and these are the reasons why.

Anyways I decided to pay them for rehersals. Thanks for your post.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by pan60

best of luck Jose Mrochek persistence goes a long way's.
try not not to let it get you down as it can be difficult to get the right group of individuals together.

thanks for your kind words pan!

[Sizzleboy]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

This was always the plan! Plus my stuff is so easy to learn to... BUT THEY WON´T PRACTICE AT HOME! Amateurs man, these are not professionals.. the term professional does not exist in my country (Bolivia) . So like you said, learn the damm songs have a few practices and hit the road ? sounds easy right ? at least that´s what I thought......

The decision to have 5 practices a week, was because I rented a venue.. yes.. I wanted to sound good during practice to not expect surprises live once we can all hear each other! NOBODY takes the time or money to do that, and these guys know it.. I presented them with a package, and gigs and a good paying rate per gig, and they ALL seem thrilled about it, that´s what they all say.. but when the time comes the issues start.

Have you heard of any bands that came out of Bolivia ? NOPE, and these are the reasons why.

Anyways I decided to pay them for rehersals. Thanks for your post.

For the amount of money you will be spending on the venue, and to pay these guys to practice, it may be more cost effective to have some cats fly in from elswhere for the shows. Argentina has a GREAT music scene, and Brazil isn't to shabby either. In any case, good luck, and hang in there.