recording vocal with acoustic guitar

[rob morsberger]

What are your optimal mic settings/placement etc for recording someone singing and playing acoustic guitar...with separation and phase issues being particular concerns. How do you do it?
Thanks for any input.

[I Lurk]

Well,

I had a real hard time last record I did with this config.

You can first start hyper cardio setings for the vocals.

I was doomed last time : he was playing harmonica at the same time.

Last resort : built a separation panel between his head and his guitar. With foam and everything.

best of luck with it.

[MATTI]

Use fig. 8 mics and aim nulls acordingly.
Matti

[zarembo]

figure 8 mics are going to be your friend here, unless your room sucks.

Position one mic lying horizontally somewhat with the null pointing as best it can toward the guitar.

position the other on the guitar using the same principle with the null aiming toward the voice.

recently I have had great success getting fairly isolated vocal and guitar tracks and was even able to recut a vocal with no problem as the bleed into the gtr mic was minimal. And in this case, the gtr bleed into the vocal was negligible! This was of course, in the live room which sounds great.

When we did another track with drums and the singer/gtr player was in the booth my dual figure 8's revealed just how crappy our booth sounds to me.....a drag.

this takes some experimenting and critical listening and I find it's easy to fvck up when you have it right--ooh maybe I'll move it a little more and make it better-- wrong!

I'm really sensitive to those phase issues too and they drive me crazy-- when using cardioid style mics on both gtr and voice--I hate it, it sounds like a comb filter phase shifter shitsandwich spread and it really annoys me when no one else in the control will admit to hearing it!

Chuck Ainlay mentioned he uses a small lav taped in the sound hole with Mark Knopfler with nearly total isolation and I really want to get my hands on a countryman isomax 2 or something like it to try--

figure of 8 dude.
go figure.
best of luck to you

[rob morsberger]

Room sounds good. I'll try the figure of 8 and report back. Last time I did two cardiods and got a little of the 'comb filtering' effect you describe. Thanks a lot everyone.

[dokushoka]

I like to use one mic and place it about two feet away. I just move it around, compress and eq it until I am happy with the balance. I like the Soundelux 251 clone (whatever they call it) for this quite a bit, although I've done the same thing with other mics sucessfully. If you're feeling nervous about this approach, or the artist is, you can always toss up some close mics just for the hell of it, too.

Here is a quick example (I think this is the unmastered version) of this single mic technique augmented by some horns and stuff:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...7-b7b7ed9a7f26

Its the song called "Shame"

[rob morsberger]

I assume you set the mic to omni?
Thanks....

[dokushoka]

Originally Posted by rob morsberger

I assume you set the mic to omni?
Thanks....

Cardioid.

[NathanEldred]

A large diaphragm condenser (usually cardiod) is going to pick up 100% of the voice, and about 75% of the acoustic guitar. I place the condenser in the normal position, but a bit closer and put the microphone upside down titled up at about a 20 degree angle. Then I use a small diaphragm cardiod in front of the 12th fret pointed to the left (facing the guitar) at about 30 degrees, and down about 20 degrees. This is just a starting point, but it usually works well. In mix, sometimes the small diaphragm guitar mic isn't even needed (depends on the singer really), but is there just in case.

[rob morsberger]

thank you.
I really appreciate all the wonderful suggestions.

[kissingonstilts]

After trying a number of different scenarios over the years, my favourite is to use one microphone about 18" away and 8"- 10" off to the left, and about 3" - 5" below the chin. I liked to call it 'placement eq'.

[MATTI]

Rob, you asked for separation, the fig. 8 way is for that.
otherwise something like Nathan suggests and if its solo
maybe the guitar in stereo would be my try.

In the pic. (not mine) guitar is being recorded with stereo Neumann, notice the aiming for the nulls for that mic. so fig 8 could be used.

Cheers
Matti

[beats workin']

i tried something new last week and got fantastic results. i've always found that, when using 2 mics, getting the phase right was absolutely the most important thing. when the phase is just right, the vox has all that presence and "forward" vibe and the guitar has body and detail. much more important than mic choice or pre. generally i use a 67 on the guitar and an e47 on th vox. this time i put an r84 sideways and pointed slightly up , in front of the singer, so the null cancelled out the guitar, then put an m300 right under the r84, just touching the grill and pointed down towards the acoustic.
the 2 mics are in phase- the little bit of acoustic that bleeds into the r84 gets a bit more fullness than the m300 delivers on its own, and the little bit of vox that bleeds into the m300 is given a bit more sparkle by it.
i'll try it again to see if it was just luck. always good to keep experimenting. oh yeah, a 512 pre for the r84 and a daking for the m300.
david

[boboji]

I'm extremely interested in this thread but I'm having a issue visualizing all these placements. Could anybody post a pick of these placements or a drawing. The one photo posted dosen't really tell me anything. God do I have ADD???

[Acoustic Cloud]

One decent LDC can do the trick quite nicely, depending on the guitars volume usually. A loud singer with a Jasmine acoustic, vs. a whispery singer with a BIG sounding acoustic is difficult. Moving the mic around constantly to find a good spot is some work .

At points in the performance you may have wanted control over the seperate levels, and sometime they may be fine......But hey, thats what listening to someone live is like anyway, right? As long as the vocals or guitar dont completely bury the other in passages, the one mic thing is doable.

The mix also has the same effect for both, (if using any) that is a bit sticky too. But there usually isnt any control over them when listening live either.

Most people except the engineer may not notice the differences.

[rob morsberger]

thanks again for all the great replies. For this particular session I was just documenting some material to click as a first step in our process. Nothing had to be a keeper. I tried the figure eight approach this go round and got pretty good results.
AT4050 on the voc sounded great and did a super job of keeping guitar out. For some reason my 414 seemed less effective at keeping out vocal. I didn't spend a lot of time fussing with mic placement cos it just wasn't going to help our flow. But overall a good outcome with workable seperation and no phase issues. I'll continue to experiment with some of the other good suggestions here.

[mhartman]

I know that this doesn't answer your question directly, but if you need absolute separation (for edits, overdubbing, ect.), but the player wants the "live" vibe going on. You can record the singing/guitar combo. Then, with this take as a reference in the cans, have the performer re-record the vocals and guitar separately. Then, trash the original take. This will give you the timing of the "live" take, but you will be able to mess with the parts (eq, compress, edit, tune, etc.) individually. Good luck.

Mike

[rob morsberger]

Thanks. We're going to experiment with different approaches. This guy has a lovely feel playing and singing and I know he will lose some of that if I make him sing w/o playing. A lot of people are like that...they gotta play when they sing or something gets lost. We'll see.....Of course I want to be able to get each element sounding as beautiful as possible soncially too.

[RKrizman]

I often take a music stand and set the tray on it horizontal, stick some foam to both sides, and slide it in between the vocal mic and the guitar mic, usually about chest high on the performer. It's not as cumbersome as it sounds, and does a fantastic job of getting rid of the phasiness that can make everything sound boxy.


-R

[rob morsberger]

what a cool idea. Thanks. Gonna try that.

[dorisinger]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

I often take a music stand and set the tray on it horizontal, stick some foam to both sides, and slide it in between the vocal mic and the guitar mic, usually about chest high on the performer. It's not as cumbersome as it sounds, and does a fantastic job of getting rid of the phasiness that can make everything sound boxy.

I read somewhere that this was how Don McLean was recorded for the American Pie album - they built some kind of gobo out of what they had lying around the studio that suspended between guitar and vocal mics, not too shabby results!

[u b k]

there is frequently a magical spot for acoustics down low, 6-18" below the body of the guitar, a foot or so away, in line with the bridge, pointing up towards the soundhole. if you can find this spot, you'll have a lot less voice in that mic and won't need to futz with a gobo.


gregoire
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