Can a studio be sued for what it records?

[FOURTHTUNZ]

A teenager from a local highschool came into my studio a while back a did a rap that falls into the genre of "horrorcore", death and dismemberment kind of stuff, not my fav stuff but I defend his right to spit whatever he wants
I guess he sold the stuff to some kids at school including the police chiefs daughter so he's kicked out for 10 days, and I guess the law is involved.
Have any of you run into this, I mean have you had to deal with a lawsuit for what you record? His mother came in with him last year so she knows what he's doing.
I guess with the war on terror the law has more rights and we have less, so I'm a little worried
daniel

[lucey]

Originally Posted by FOURTHTUNZ

A teenager from a local highschool came into my studio a while back a did a rap that falls into the genre of "horrorcore", death and dismemberment kind of stuff, not my fav stuff but I defend his right to spit whatever he wants
I guess he sold the stuff to some kids at school including the police chiefs daughter so he's kicked out for 10 days, and I guess the law is involved.
Have any of you run into this, I mean have you had to deal with a lawsuit for what you record? His mother came in with him last year so she knows what he's doing.
I guess with the war on terror the law has more rights and we have less, so I'm a little worried
daniel

Just a guess .... especially if his mother came with him I dont see how you could be in trouble for recording him.

Dangerous as it may be in some people's eyes, it's still just music, and you're a hired engineer providing a legal service.

[Jonboy79]

The only way the law can be after this kid is if he made threats to specific people in his songs. If he was just speaking in a general manner than it's artistic expression and isn't dangerous to anyone. Getting kicked out of school for 10 days is up to the school, and had I brought vulgar content onto my school's grounds and sold it to students I would've probably been suspended also. That's just how school goes sometimes. Either way I don't you're in any kind of trouble.

[Fletcher]

Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If anyone is at fault here, the school, being an arm of the Government, has violated one of the basic premises upon which the United States of America has been founded.

While the Supreme Court has established some limits in the interest of "public safety" [i.e. it is totally uncool to yell "fire" in a crowded theater] which have been impinged to a point with the laws that prohibit the crossing of state lines to "incite a riot" [commonly known as the "H. Rap Brown" law after the former Black Panther of the same name, this law was pretty much overturned during the appeal of the Chicago 7's conviction in the early 1970's though parts of it remain intact]... it is perfectly legal to record anything that is free and clear in terms of ownership.

In other words, as long as you're not recording samples that you know have not been cleared for use then you are in the clear... as mix engineer Steve Ett learned in the early 90's [I believe he was cleared of all responsibility in that matter as well so the engineer may not be held accountable for the misdeeds of the client... though Ett's was a civil rather than a criminal case].

That said, it is totally permissible to yell "theater" in a crowded fire... in fact, I encourage it!!

Peace.

[cajonezzz]

I suppose it's fine by the law...


can you sleep well at night recording this stuff tho?

That's what got me out of doing "gangsta crap" in the early 90's.

I truly believe that we are what we eat, and choose to allow into our lives....


maybe the question shouldn't be " is it legal" , but rather "is it right" and "is it good" ?


fwiw.

[confooshus]

Originally Posted by cajonezzz

I suppose it's fine by the law...


can you sleep well at night recording this stuff tho?

That's what got me out of doing "gangsta crap" in the early 90's.

I truly believe that we are what we eat, and choose to allow into our lives....


maybe the question shouldn't be " is it legal" , but rather "is it right" and "is it good" ?


fwiw.

Very well said.

[dave-G]

Originally Posted by cajonezzz

I suppose it's fine by the law...

can you sleep well at night recording this stuff tho?

That's what got me out of doing "gangsta crap" in the early 90's.

I truly believe that we are what we eat, and choose to allow into our lives....

maybe the question shouldn't be " is it legal" , but rather "is it right" and "is it good" ?
.

Absolutely .. with what we do, it's much easier to make reservations in hell than in jail.

-dave

[chandlersonic]

I asked myself the exact same question once after recording an extremely violent death metal band.
I looked into it a little and after some ( very light ) research, it seems that if anyone could be sued, it's not the recording engineer, but I might be wrong.
As it turns out, nobody could understand a word of what this singer was saying anyway.

[C/G]

Originally Posted by chandlersonic

As it turns out, nobody could understand a word of what this singer was saying anyway.

Did he sound like Cookie Monster?

[Pohaku]

Originally Posted by FOURTHTUNZ

A teenager from a local highschool came into my studio a while back a did a rap that falls into the genre of "horrorcore", death and dismemberment kind of stuff, not my fav stuff but I defend his right to spit whatever he wants
I guess he sold the stuff to some kids at school including the police chiefs daughter so he's kicked out for 10 days, and I guess the law is involved.
Have any of you run into this, I mean have you had to deal with a lawsuit for what you record? His mother came in with him last year so she knows what he's doing.
I guess with the war on terror the law has more rights and we have less, so I'm a little worried
daniel

Highly unlikely that you have any liability, unless, as Fletcher noted, someone's intellectual property rights are infringed. Keep in mind that this doesn't mean that some one can't sue using a fanciful and "innovative" claim (this is the United States afterall) -- but, based on the facts recited, I'm not seeing any liability on your part.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by Colin Gaucher

Did he sound like Cookie Monster?

man, you guys haven't heard ANYTHING, 'til you've heard THESE guys.

http://www.wearemongoloid.com/cookie/index.html

[Ziggy!!]

Originally Posted by cajonezzz

I suppose it's fine by the law...


can you sleep well at night recording this stuff tho?

That's what got me out of doing "gangsta crap" in the early 90's.

I truly believe that we are what we eat, and choose to allow into our lives....


maybe the question shouldn't be " is it legal" , but rather "is it right" and "is it good" ?


fwiw.

I had an interesting discussion with a university lecturer who was reaccounting a similar experience, but as the composer.

To put it beliefly, he wrote a piece of music about a vision of the apocolypse of the USA that he had when he was travelling there in the 70's. The vision of course was completely drug induced in van horn... a complete shithole from what he told me. The piece was written in the late 70's and was quite successful. It appeared on a compliation cd with other names like John Cage.

But then their is the rub. In 2001 he was invited to germany to have the piece performed and for him to discuss its creation, but upon his arrival in Germany dawned September 11 and the terrorist attacks.

What would you do? Play the piece of music or withdraw it, given its context.

Right isn't so clear cut.


He played it ofcourse, even despite a request by the organisers not to. What does a piece of music influenced by a drug induced personal experience have to do with terrorism? Nothing.

[asagaai]

Well-I am speaking from Australian persepctive on law..but.

As an engineer you probably are not exposed in a contractual sense to a thrid party.

However, if an intellectual right is breached and the engineer knows about it you could as an engineer be up for aiding and abetting such a breach.

Not involving that, if the song is just spewing crap, generally you should be in the clear unless the song breaches some statutory legn. For instance in Oz there is now legn that has been introduced to deal with terrorism, so if the song breached that, as engineer you could be up for aiding and abetting that.

Thirdly, and this would be hard to prove, but it is not a fanciful scenario, if the song clearly is designed to incite a person listening to do something or cause a certain group of persons harm, there is an argument that as an engineer if you know the material you are recording is to be disseminated you owe a general duty of care to the public to avoid disseminating material you know or ought to know could cause a person to do something real bad-ie like a song telling boys at school to go and grab some guns and shoot the bejusus outa whatever minority/sex alignement group. An engineer would only be exposed in this situation if the song was very specific and direct.

So in my other life as a lawyer who defends companies in litigation, if a song was essentially encouraging people to break the law-I would refuse to record it. If someone heard it and killed /hurt someone after being incited by the song, no way I want to be up for an aiding and abetting charge in the criminal arena.

Likewise-you would then also be exposed in the civil arena as well- a double wammy-facing compensation to relatives and nervous shock actions.

So my advice-do not record anything where a song encourages people to break the law-and you should be right.

If the song is just making a social statement on crap-well thats different and freedom of expression and is surely a good thing.

Cheers

Gavin Jensen
Newcastle/OZ

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by cajonezzz

can you sleep well at night recording this stuff tho?

That's what got me out of doing "gangsta crap" in the early 90's.

I truly believe that we are what we eat, and choose to allow into our lives....


maybe the question shouldn't be " is it legal" , but rather "is it right" and "is it good" ?


fwiw.

I hate ignorant posts like this.

Having lived in San Diego for 10+ years, I can tell you that there's no "gangsta crap" coming out of Carlsbad - and there never was.

"Good" is subjective. To use an old cliche, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Music is just music. Another form of artistic expression - whether it appeals to you or not. If Stephen King scares you, don't read his books. If you think Stephen King is a shitty writer, don't read his books.

Real engineers know that their job is to archive sound and record history - not to judge what's "right" or whatever.

Yes, it's true that we are what we eat. And you'll crap it out within the next 12 hours.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

.
Yes, it's true that we are what we eat. And you'll crap it out within the next 12 hours.

unfortunately, not ALL of it

our bodies do retain SOME of it.

[Fletcher]

The following song is about a murdering rapist... but somehow we call it a cherished "hit"... so you tell me the difference between a song about poppin' a cap in somebody's ass vs. sticking a knife right down their throat [and baby it hurts].

Did you hear about the midnight rambler
Everybody got to go
Did you hear about the midnight rambler
The one that shut the kitchen door
He dont give a hoot of warning
Wrapped up in a black cat cloak
He dont go in the light of the morning
He split the time the cockrel crows

Talkin about the midnight gambler
The one you never seen before
Talkin about the midnight gambler
Did you see him jump the garden wall
Sighin down the wind so sadly
Listen and youll hear him moan
Talkin about the midnight gambler
Everybody got to go

Did you hear about the midnight rambler
Well, honey, its no rock n roll show
Well, Im talkin about the midnight gambler
Yeah, everybody got to go

Well did ya hear about the midnight gambler?
Well honey its no rock-in roll show
Well Im talking about the midnight gambler
The one you never seen before

Oh dont do that, oh dont do that, oh dont do that
Dont you do that, dont you do that (repeat)
Oh dont do that, oh dont do that

Well you heard about the boston...
Its not one of those
Well, talkin bout the midnight...sh...
The one that closed the bedroom door
Im called the hit-and-run raper in anger
The knife-sharpened tippie-toe...
Or just the shoot em dead, brainbell jangler
You know, the one you never seen before

So if you ever meet the midnight rambler
Coming down your marble hall
Well hes pouncing like proud black panther
Well, you can say i, I told you so
Well, dont you listen for the midnight rambler
Play it easy, as you go
Im gonna smash down all your plate glass windows
Put a fist, put a fist through your steel-plated door

Did you hear about the midnight rambler
Hell leave his footprints up and down your hall
And did you hear about the midnight gambler
And did you see me make my midnight call

And if you ever catch the midnight rambler
Ill steal your mistress from under your nose
Ill go easy with your cold fanged anger
Ill stick my knife right down your throat, baby
And it hurts!

(m. jagger/k. richards)


.... and yes, I would have slept fine at night if I had recorded this... possibly from the Heroin, possibly because they're only words... same with "Cop Killer" or any other song. Its music, its expression, it is incumbent upon the parents to monitor to what their children are exposed.

Am I a bad father for watching "Pulp Fiction" with my daughter? Maybe, but its really a damn good flick and she quite enjoyed it... and believe it or not, she doesn't seem to be plotting to blow up a school nor murder anyone... go figure.

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Well-I am speaking from Australian persepctive on law..but.

As an engineer you probably are not exposed in a contractual sense to a thrid party.

However, if an intellectual right is breached and the engineer knows about it you could as an engineer be up for aiding and abetting such a breach.

Not involving that, if the song is just spewing crap, generally you should be in the clear unless the song breaches some statutory legn. For instance in Oz there is now legn that has been introduced to deal with terrorism, so if the song breached that, as engineer you could be up for aiding and abetting that.

Thirdly, and this would be hard to prove, but it is not a fanciful scenario, if the song clearly is designed to incite a person listening to do something or cause a certain group of persons harm, there is an argument that as an engineer if you know the material you are recording is to be disseminated you owe a general duty of care to the public to avoid disseminating material you know or ought to know could cause a person to do something real bad-ie like a song telling boys at school to go and grab some guns and shoot the bejusus outa whatever minority/sex alignement group. An engineer would only be exposed in this situation if the song was very specific and direct.

So in my other life as a lawyer who defends companies in litigation, if a song was essentially encouraging people to break the law-I would refuse to record it. If someone heard it and killed /hurt someone after being incited by the song, no way I want to be up for an aiding and abetting charge in the criminal arena.

Likewise-you would then also be exposed in the civil arena as well- a double wammy-facing compensation to relatives and nervous shock actions.

So my advice-do not record anything where a song encourages people to break the law-and you should be right.

If the song is just making a social statement on crap-well thats different and freedom of expression and is surely a good thing.

Cheers

Gavin Jensen
Newcastle/OZ

This may be true in Australia, but I know we already have precedents for just such cases and they were thrown out of court. Judas Preist was NOT liable for a boy's suicide, nor were any studio personel...Ozzie and so on.

Man, this is crap!

Fear.

That is ALL this is, we are becoming more and MORE afraid. It is the culture of the U.S. right now and YES, we DO have personal responsibilities to what we can live with recording and doing, but we should NOT be afraid of speech and litigation.

Don't we have enough in life to worry about?

Think abut the opposite and you see how insane it is...

If John Lennon said "The War Is Over If You Want It," advocating PEACE and people WANTED peace and the Vietnam war to be over but it wasn't, would he have been legally liable for false advertising? Open to a class-action suite?

Absurd.

This realy is not all that different.

Take personal responsibility for good. Please forget the fear.

Peace.

-Andrews

DIRTY HALO www.dirtyhalo.com

[Sqye]

if we REALLY want to get into CRIMES,
let's talk about J.P. Searle ex-CEO Donald Rumsfeld
releasing NUTRISWEET/EQUAL killer ASPERTAME to the marketplace.

evil words = evil words

evil actions = evil actions

[Duardo]

That's what got me out of doing "gangsta crap" in the early 90's.

I truly believe that we are what we eat, and choose to allow into our lives....

maybe the question shouldn't be " is it legal" , but rather "is it right" and "is it good" ?

For me it wouldn't be the style of music, but the people I was working with.

I wouldn't have a problem recording gangsta rap, so long as the musicians didn't bring the "gangsta lifestyle" into my studio...same goes for a kid doing "horrocore", or music that covered just about any other subject matter I might not agree with (I know Stephen King plays the guitar, would you turn him away from your studio because of the subject matter of his books?). By that same token I'd have a big problem if a guy came in doing religious children's songs but spent most of the time between takes verbally and physically abusing his musicians.

-Duardo

[Ziggy!!]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

I hate ignorant posts like this.

Having lived in San Diego for 10+ years, I can tell you that there's no "gangsta crap" coming out of Carlsbad - and there never was.

"Good" is subjective. To use an old cliche, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Music is just music. Another form of artistic expression - whether it appeals to you or not. If Stephen King scares you, don't read his books. If you think Stephen King is a shitty writer, don't read his books.

Real engineers know that their job is to archive sound and record history - not to judge what's "right" or whatever.

Yes, it's true that we are what we eat. And you'll crap it out within the next 12 hours.

Well thats it, innit'. I wasn't going to put it so bluntly but anyway, I agree.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be censored or removed from public viewing. An opinion like that should be is far from "right" given the fundamental right of free speech that a country like the USA is based on. I don't blame any artist for simply putting his work out there... even if it is controversal. Of course there are some occasions when putting the work out there might lack taste (for example, releasing a movie about terrorists crashing planes into buildings just after the september 11 attacks), but that would only alter my opinion on the artists tackfullness...


Some of the art I admire the most is quite haunting. Like this photo for example, those who actually know what the photo is about know that it is more than just a man burning. why do I get the impression that this photo will be removed

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by Duardo

For me it wouldn't be the style of music, but the people I was working with.

I wouldn't have a problem recording gangsta rap, so long as the musicians didn't bring the gangsta lifestyle into my studio...same goes for a kid doing "horrocore", or music that covered just about any other subject matter I might not agree with (I know Stephen King plays the guitar, would you turn him away from your studio because of the subject matter of his books?). By that same token I'd have a big problem if a guy came in doing religious children's songs but spent most of the time between takes verbally and physically abusing his musicians.

What is the "gangsta lifestyle"? Do you really know what you're saying? 99% of the rappers live the same exact way the glam bands did back in the 80's.

I know a gospel artist on a MAJOR fvcking label that will pull a gun on you very quickly if you cross him the wrong way!

When did the "good boys" decide to get into the rock and roll business????

[Duardo]

What is the "gangsta lifestyle"? Do you really know what you're saying? 99% of the rappers live the same exact way the glam bands did back in the 80's.

Sorry, I went back and put quotes around the "gangsta lifestyle" in my quote (I thought my use of the word "gangsta" was enough to illustrate my point, that I disagreed with cajonezzz's post, but I guess not). For that matter, though, I'm not sure I'd want most of the '80s glam bands in my studio either...

I know a gospel artist on a MAJOR fvcking label that will pull a gun on you very quickly if you cross him the wrong way!

Sure, and I probably wouldn't want him in my studio either...what's your point? Aren't you essentially saying the same thing I did?

-Duardo

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by Duardo

Sorry, I went back and put quotes around the "gangsta lifestyle" in my quote (I thought my use of the word "gangsta" was enough to illustrate my point, that I disagreed with cajonezzz's post, but I guess not). For that matter, though, I'm not sure I'd want most of the '80s glam bands in my studio either...


Sure, and I probably wouldn't want him in my studio either...what's your point? Aren't you essentially saying the same thing I did?

-Duardo

I wonder what records wouldn't have been made if the big studios decided to pick and choose their clients?

[uncle duncan]

No job pays enough if it make you miserable. I'm a sensitive guy, and some kinds of artistic expression turn my stomach, so I stay away from it. I don't let it in my studio. I live in a city of a million people, so it's not like I'm censoring these so-called 'artists'. Their crap will still get recorded. Is this discrimination? Or just an artistic choice? I guess it depends on how you look at the role of the studio. Mine is in my house, so I feel like I have a right to decide who I'm going to open my door to. It's the 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' sign, taken to a different level.

[Ziggy!!]

artistic choice? Lets talk about autotune and beat detective

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Guys, thanks for all the responses, guess maybe I'm a little paranoid
For me censorship is censorship and if I were uncomfortable with a situation I would just stop the session, which I've never had to do since 1990, came close a couple of times but we got through it
This rappers stuff is graphic and i had to decide on the fly if I could hang with it but he's a good kid, seemed to me like he was trying on a suit and acting.
I've recorded plenty of things that i haven't agreed with, religious, political, violence and otherwise, I've always just tried to get the best recording.
I really don't think a studio should have to worry about how music is distributed though
This isn't the same as the bar owner being responsible for the drinker is it?
thanks
daniel

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

I guess it depends on how you look at the role of the studio. Mine is in my house, so I feel like I have a right to decide who I'm going to open my door to.

Most commercial facilities open the door to Ben Franklin and his twin brothers.

I wouldn't really trust any everyday client to come work at my home. You never know who the nutjob might be.

[Duardo]

I wonder what records wouldn't have been made if the big studios decided to pick and choose their clients?

We're not talking about "big studios" here, we're talking about a guy who recorded a high school kid in his studio...so maybe I'm wrong, but I don't imagine his is what you'd consider to be a "big studio".

And while the bigger studios may not be so picky about whom they book, you can bet that the big-name producers and engineers are picky about the projects they do...some more than others, sure, but isn't that the ideal position to be in?

-Duardo

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by Duardo

And while the bigger studios may not be so picky about whom they book, you can bet that the big-name producers and engineers are picky about the projects they do...some more than others, sure, but isn't that the ideal position to be in?

-Duardo

Don' be so sure. Most of the good paying projects coming your way won't be turned down.

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by Sqye

if we REALLY want to get into CRIMES,
let's talk about J.P. Searle ex-CEO Donald Rumsfeld
releasing NUTRISWEET/EQUAL killer ASPERTAME to the marketplace.

evil words = evil words

evil actions = evil actions

funny how that killer drug of his is still on the marketplace, in ever-multiplying colorful little paper sacks of schitty-tasting powder.

i don't quite understand what aspartame and/or Rummy have to do with this thread, though.

like the guy said, discard the fear, eh?