Bad Mastering Job...need advice

[wolfhound]

I recently produced an album for a decent indie lable. They were unable to use their normal mastering engineer, so I suggested somewhere else to go (at double the cost the label usually spends for mastering). The facility was very well regarded, but I had never worked with the particular ME we were put with before. While we were at the mastering session we voiced some concern over some of the ME's choices, but he didn't really give them much consideration. Since it's his job to know the sound of his room and how it will translate to other speakers we deferred to his (considerable) experience. We've been living with the reference CDs for a couple weeks and trying them on all sorts of different listening environments and everyone (including several "laymen") agrees: there are major problems with the sound of the album. The label refuses to release the record the way it sounds now.

We've already gone over budget for the mastering as is, so we have no money to go and revise...plus we feel we really need to start over with a different engineer. What would a mastering facility typically do in this situation? Would/should they offer to fix it. If we don't use any of their work would they refund us some/all of the money we've spent?

I know they are going to say the problem is with our mixes...but we really feel it is not. Of course the mixes could be better, but they are not the CAUSE of the problem. What do you guys think I should do?!

My ass is on the line with this label, as it was my call as to where to spend their money! Any advice would be HUGELY appreciated!!

Thanks in advance,
--wolfie

[Henchman]

Talk to the mastering house, and let them know how the label feels. and that you voiced concern in the session also. I would approach it as friendly as possible, and see if they are willing to fix it.

[jbuntz]

PM Jazzius on this forum. He does pretty inexpensive mastering. I haven't heard his work though.

[CV7]

Whoa, stuck between a Rock and a...... , well maybe to fix some of the sounds you should do some quik overdubs then take it back to the Mastering House and negotiate, I mean get on your hands an Knees. Sometimes the MH has you by the Balls, depends what kind of contract you have with them, but if the Engineer didn't do a good job, then you can point to that, on the other hand if he wasn't able to due to the poor tracks then you must re-do them.

[petermeechanuk]

It's a bit weird that the label didn't organise the mastering themselves. Mastering is the one time you normally get the A&R to show a real interest - "I want it louder". That aside -

A client of mine had some work mastered at a VERY respected facility in London and it came back distorted. The clients were present during the session but I wasn't. After complaining, the facility remastered it with another engineer FOC. However, this was an obvious error and my clients suspected the ME had been drinking !

I'm not sure how obvious the problems are but it's worth asking for free time or a partial refund. Chances are though, they're gonna say you left after hearing it and paid for it and therefore you can't change your mind now.

If you can't get any money or time out of them and you're worried about your reputation AND you honestly think the mixes are good, you may have to eat the cost yourself if you want it released.

-Peter

[ROBB007]

Ah Henchman my dear friend !I have not heard from you for quite some time .I wonder WHO ARE YOU!Ive asked John Mcclean I have asked Mike Frazier here in Vancouver and nobody no's who YOU ARE {REVEAL YOURSELF }One thing seems for certain you must be working out of PINEWOOD!!!Anyway my humble advice to you is to let the label and Lawyers deal with this ,you did your part by delivering the product properly mixed ,I have had this problem in the past but was very fortunate to deal with some very frank and business honest friends {Here in Vancouver Criag Waddell]who warranty the work !

[Henchman]

Originally posted by ROBB007
Ah Henchman my dear friend !I have not heard from you for quite some time

No big mystery. If you go to the desolation website, you would know that i am mark hensley. I have my own studio where I do some music and post production out of.
I am currently employed by Post Modern Sound. Wich is cool. Getting alot of time on the Euphonics system 5 console. And a steady stream of income, which has allowed me to work on some music projects that have no budget, but ones I felt were worth the time and effort.
One of them is Jane sawyer, who was in the band Dick and Jane. And is a great singer/songwriter. Amazing voice. It's almost finished.
And the other one was Zigmund, with Ziggy, who has played in numerous bands. Econoline Crush, Art Bergman, Copyright etc.
We finished that record, but he is lacking the funds to release it right now.
you can check it out at:

www.zigmundmusic.com/ziggy

Another good mastering guy here in town is Yanni Fysass. I too have had nothing but good experiences with mastering guys here in town. Usually, thwy'll master it, you take it home, and they will usually allow you another tweak session after you've had chance to listen to it.

I wouldn't start running to lawyers just yet. Talk to the mastering house, and see if things can't be worked out.

[Bob Olhsson]

Most mastering engineers will work with you on this kind of an issue unless you absolutely insisted that they do something at the session they felt was a bad idea.

I, for one, really want to know about when somebody is unhappy with something I did. The quality of my work is a direct result of years of feedback.

[wolfhound]

Most mastering engineers will work with you on this kind of an issue unless you absolutely insisted that they do something at the session they felt was a bad idea

In this case it really tended more towards the ME not really entertaining our suggestions, and us not pressuring him enough to try what we wanted.

I've spoken with the mastering house and they're going to investigate what can be done. They seem pretty friendly so far about making some minor changes for free....although of course they've already said our mixes were the problem. But when I A/B our mixes to the mastered versions I don't hear the same problems on the virgin mixes as I do the mastered. We'll see what happens.....

[Henchman]

Originally posted by wolfhound
But when I A/B our mixes to the mastered versions I don't hear the same problems on the virgin mixes as I do the mastered. We'll see what happens.....

well that's a good starting point.

Document the various isuues, and give the pre and post mastered version to tyhe person in charge at the mastering facility. With notes on very specific problems.

I'm just wondering, what are some ofthe main problems?

[ROBB007]

What suggestions do they give you about your mix's and have you ever had this problem before ?Henchman thank you for your reply .I do remember the Dick and Jane thing ! I seem to recall the female from a project a few years back anyway thanks for the reply and look forward to meeting with you sometime.



Rob

[jazzius II]

Those that came before pretty much said it, but just to re-iterate:
Any masterer worth his salt will want to know when the customer is unhappy......whether or not you have to pay for changes will depend on the circumstances.....if the ME effed up (technical error), then it should be FOC......if it's light tweaking, it shouldn't add up to much more then an hour of extra studio time providing you point out the problem at the listening copy stage (before the master has been made).....if the ME just did a plain bad job, then there could be a problem.......

.....ask to A/B the unmastered and mastered versions at the masterhouse....the problem should be pretty obvious on their hi-end system......what's wrong with it anyways? (you didn't specify)

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by wolfhound
In this case it really tended more towards the ME not really entertaining our suggestions, and us not pressuring him enough to try what we wanted.

I've spoken with the mastering house and they're going to investigate what can be done. They seem pretty friendly so far about making some minor changes for free....although of course they've already said our mixes were the problem. But when I A/B our mixes to the mastered versions I don't hear the same problems on the virgin mixes as I do the mastered. We'll see what happens.....

Why would you work with someone you've never worked with before?

Most of the places I know here in NYC(Sterling,Masterdisk,Hit Factory) want the clients to be happy. They will make the changes after provided that they are not major changes.

How did your mixes sound at the mastering facility?

Did you hear any anomalies there?

[Jules]

I would ask them for another mastering session with your normal guy.

For free...

last session I did was a nightmare I was arguing with the A&R ****** all during it - me "try to reduce the bass end" A&R - "errrr, RAISE the bass end back"

And I got a distortion crackle LOUD on the fade out of one song (NOT on the master)

I made the guy fix it,

Then the A&R ****** doubled back and had it remastered without me (the producer) and the ME managed to put the crackle BACK in there!

tutt

I was FULLY in my rights to kick up a huge stink about it, but .... politically it would have been ill advised... and various indeviduals involved were not worth the hassle... at ALL.

[Jay Kahrs]

Tough call. I always bring along whatever CD's I was A/Bing to in mixing to mastering if I'm attending so I can get a bearing on how the room is affecting what I hear. If the ME & mastering house won't fix the problems which is a possibility, it's been a few weeks and everyone was attending then you might have to eat the cost of having it mastered again. If it was an unattended session you'd have a much greater chance of having it redone without having to pay for it again. At least that's what I've encounted in the past and how I deal with mixing.

Now the flip side is what could you have done to prevent it in the first place and how can you keep it from happening again?

I would never hand an ME an entire record if I hadn't worked with them before. I always like to get at least one or two songs done first to get a feel for their work and how they hear things. If my or the labels usual ME isn't available then 90% of the time we wait until they are. If we can't wait because of a deadline and my #2 ME can't get it done then we pick one song and send that to a bunch of people. Whoever does the best job gets the project.

Anyone else got a suggestion?

BTW, Wolfhound can you PM the name of the mastering house? If it's in NYC I'd love to know who it is so I can add them to my list of places to avoid.

[wolfhound]

Thanks everyone for your advice!

Just to answer some of the questions, unfortunately we couldn't go with the label's usual ME for scheduling reasons, or go through testing for the same reason, so we basically had to make a decision based on reputation....of course now the record release is gonna be pushed back anyway! So that lesson's been learned.

It looks like the mastering lab is going to work with us on fixing it...depending upon what it is we want to change....and who's "fault" it was. But I really need to make sure if I'm going to get a chance to fix it that it does truly get fixed! Maybe some of the ME's around here could help find a way to articulate this properly to the guy I'll be working with.

The issues we have with the sound are hard to explain. It's not TOTALLY effed up (in fact I was OK with it the first few times I listened to it) but it's strange...my guess is that it has to do with how the final limiter is reacting to the bottom end. When I listen to the original mix everything is more open, balanced, and clear by comparison to the mastered material. The ME felt the mixes were too bright, and in taming that some of the clarity has gone away and the mixes sound duller. So one thing is to ask him to try letting a little more top end go through. But what really happens is that the low bottom end (80hz and below about) came way up. I don't think it happened through eq but by the low end clamping down the limiter in an weird way, making the rest of the mix feel smaller. (I'm guessing.) It's not the "when the bass comes in the vocals get quieter" thing, it's more like the limiting has changed the perceived balance betweend the low end and the rest of the instruments: the kick sounds thuddier (has lost its snap), the bass sounds muddier, and the low power guitars have lost the meat in 400-500 area and your attention is drawn to this sub bass kind a thing just eating up everything else.

And of course the label owner says overall, it's not loud enough.

Maybe that doesn't sound the strange but here's the weird part. When I A/B the pre/post mastered version at equal perceived volumes on high quality reference headphones the mixes sound quite similar, when I take them in the car and do the same, they sound totally different!! I'm afraid the ME's gonna say it's my mixes that are the problem, but it's really the way the mastered versions are translating on consumer systems that's the problem.

So basically, at this point I'm gonna ask the guy to do a test on one song of cutting some low end out and letting some more of the top end back in, but I don't know what other solutions to suggest to him. And as far as pleasing the label, I feel slamming the limiter more to bring up overall level is going to make things worse.

To make matters even worse, the label has told the band there's problems with the mixes in mastering, making me look like an idiot, while I'm still trying to solidify my contract with them!!

All advice would be hugely appreciated!!!

Thanks Slutz!

[Bob Olhsson]

Beware that many car audio systems have undefeatable "loudness compensation" that boosts the low-end (and sometimes the top end a bit too) at lower volume control settings.

[jazzius II]

It sounds like it was over-limited. In these days of loudness wars, someone will have to make a choice between quality and keeping up with the Jones's (or find a happy compromise). It's impossible to have a CD thats both as loud as most of the current releases and at the same time keeps the punch and openness of the original...this problem is further compounded if the mixes were less then stellar as good mixes will always sound louder...with the label wanting it even louder, it sounds like your in a tricky situation.

The bass problem you described sounds like it was EQ'ed in a weird way. I don't see how limiting/compression would bring up the sub so much, unless it was multiband compression.

At this stage, i'd suggest your main priority is to get something that pleases the band and label. If you can get to this point, i'd bite the bullet and just put this one down to experience.

[Paul Gold]

Originally posted by wolfhound


So basically, at this point I'm gonna ask the guy to do a test on one song of cutting some low end out and letting some more of the top end back in, but I don't know what other solutions to suggest to him. And as far as pleasing the label, I feel slamming the limiter more to bring up overall level is going to make things worse.

That sounds like a good plan. It sounds like he didn't like the bright mixes. From your description it sounds like they were snappy with some meat but not a lot of low bass. Like an 80's Brittish sound. If I'm off the mark forgive me.

Having less low end will buy you some more level. So that's a plus.

It sounds more like an EQ thing than a limiter thing.

[wolfhound]

It's impossible to have a CD thats both as loud as most of the current releases and at the same time keeps the punch and openness of the original

Yeah, I think it's just a case of the trade off turning out badly in this case. In the uncompressed mixes the 60-70hz bass thing we had going on seemed in proportion to the rest of the mix...now the ear perceives it as too much.

Beware that many car audio systems have undefeatable "loudness compensation" that boosts the low-end (and sometimes the top end a bit too) at lower volume control settings.

I was wondering about that, but other CDs sounded OK.

From your description it sounds like they were snappy with some meat but not a lot of low bass. Like an 80's Brittish sound. If I'm off the mark forgive me.

Well the main source of the brightness was the drummer's particular set of ride and crash cymbals that just really cut through. We had to leave them pretty loud cause the OHs were giving the best snare sound. It was a compromise we had to make, given the recordings we were given.

We'll see what happens....maybe some slight tweaking will go a long way. I hope

P.S. to those who've asked to know where the work was done, I feel I should wait and see how the final turns out before I let anyone's reputation be questioned.

[Henchman]

Hmmm. The issue with the overheads and the snare makes me think there was a "fix it in mastering" thing going on. Never a good Idea. In the case of mediocre recordinged drumsounds, I would have opted for adding a triggered snare, to bring the overheads down.
I have had to do a similar thing myself, and if done right, it does work without being obvious.

I usually record my own samples evry session I do, so that I can use those if problems arise. Like hitting a mike, etc. I now have a small colelction of my own drumsamples I will use when i need to fix outside stuff. This way, I'm not using the same samples everyone else does.
You know, the Bob clearmounraibn and Bob rock stuff that EVERYONE uses.

[Bob Olhsson]

Sounds like you had some low frequency masking going on in the mix that you tried to compensate by adding high end. It's amazingly hard to tell the difference between too much low-end and not enough top end. A mastering monitor system should make this sort of thing pretty obvious and easy to straighten out, it's a common near-field problem.

[wolfhound]

Sounds like you had some low frequency masking going on

Bob, would you mind elaborating a bit on this?

[Bob Olhsson]

You can get a build-up of frequencies somewhere below around 400 that clouds the detail. Some people avoid this by removing a lot of the low-end from everything but the bass and kick in their mix. If you know to look out for this, you can just thin out the offending track(s) but you'd better be using something with a more accurate low-end than NS-10s.

In mastering, we can locate and dip out the range that is masking detail and then try to remove the high frequency colorations that were added to the mix. This is where high resolution, full-range speakers such as Duntechs, and B&Ws walk all over near-fields. Unfortunately they are too fragile to use for much other than mastering.

[wolfhound]

Hmm...I don't think that's really the problem. I think we were pretty careful about the mud in the 250-400 area. We were mixing on Ns-10s and Gen 1031As.

[Bob Olhsson]

I meant anywhere below 400. Often it's between 80 and 200 but can be as high as 3-400.

[Ruphus]

Originally posted by jazzius II

The bass problem you described sounds like it was EQ'ed in a weird way. I don't see how limiting/compression would bring up the sub so much, unless it was multiband compression.

... Or a high pass on the limiter.
Just a thought.

Ruphus

[wolfhound]

Thanks Bob,

That could be it then.

In mastering, we can locate and dip out the range that is masking detail and then try to remove the high frequency colorations that were added to the mix

Do you have any recommendation of how to communicate this to the ME in the best way?

Do you think we should start by leaving the top end flat, then try removing some of the offending bottom, and then turn to addressing the brightnes?

[Bob Olhsson]

That's often my approach, first try to get the low-end right and then clean up any problems that have been been revealed which can also include things like voice pops.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by wolfhound
So basically, at this point I'm gonna ask the guy to do a test on one song of cutting some low end out and letting some more of the top end back in, but I don't know what other solutions to suggest to him. And as far as pleasing the label, I feel slamming the limiter more to bring up overall level is going to make things worse.

I'd let the ME do the one test song on their own a few times until it's "right" before you go back in to do the whole album.

BTW, While mixing did you try to rip some HF out of the overheads to keep them loud while taming the harshness?