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Here we go again... Brauner Panthera, Gefell UMT70S, Pearlman TM-1
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Philip Marinelis
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15th October 2013
Old 15th October 2013
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Here we go again... Brauner Panthera, Gefell UMT70S, Pearlman TM-1

Hi all,

sorry for yet another mic thread but demoing and specialy directly comparing microphones is not very easy (if not impossible) in theese parts.

So after lots of research I've narrowed my list for a serious pair of studio all-rounders to these three:

Brauner Panthera
Gefell UMT70S
Pearlman TM-1

I will not ask which is best. I'm shure they are all great I wish I could afford a pair of each.

I would like to ask for a description of their tone specialy how one would compare to onother and for which applications you'd use one over the other.

It would also help if you could compare them to one of the other LDC's that I own and use a lot which are two C414B-XLS and a U89 .

Genres:
Folk, World, Singer/Songwriter, Jazz = 70%
Indie, Alternative, Blues, Funky, Soul = 25%
Electronica, experimental = 4%
all the rest = 1%

Thank you

ps for my mojo and (possibly) main vocal mic I have my eye on a Flea47 so no need suggesting something along that route
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15th October 2013
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The TM-1 is more of a classic U47 meets U67 kind of vibe. It's not exactly a clone of either...but I found it to feel more like an older mic in a great way. It has Omni and Cardiod polar patterns. I would use it on sources that benefit from a rounded top end and really musically tuned low and upper mid-range. It would also probably be the best front of kick mic / room mic for drums of the three in Omni mode.

The Gefell is going to be the grittiest of the bunch in a slightly aggressive way from what I remember (*I'm hazy there...) but it's somewhere between both of the other mics tonally...if you can only pick one it might be the one I would choose simply because it'll work great on just about anything and because it's going to punch through any mix you make. I liken them to FET47's in that it's not a tube design and it's voicing is reminiscent of that era slightly...also it's my favorite of the three because it has three way switchable patterns! (Cardiod, Omni, AND Figure 8...since I heavily favor Figure 8 for tracking vocals this automatically becomes my favorite of the three.)

The UMT70s would work best as a mid side mic / mono overhead in Figure 8 for drums when not in use for vocals too. Also a pair would rock it on a drum kit for stereo overheads.

The Brauner is a great mic...very cool construction methods...nearly indestructible...but I believe the Panthera is only Cardiod? (Correct me if I'm wrong?) If so...blah to that. I want me some figure 8. I know a lot of people love them, but usually I get better top end with something closer to a FET47 and some light EQ...YMMV. It is by far the most modern sounding of the three.

As for genres...I think you could record music in any vein with all three...but the Gefell will work the best on the most types of music due to it's overall flexibility with polar patterns. Lastly countless hit records were made with lead vocals using FET based LDC's...so it's in good company.
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Philip Marinelis
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15th October 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
The TM-1 is more of a classic U47 meets U67 kind of vibe. It's not exactly a clone of either...but I found it to feel more like an older mic in a great way. It has Omni and Cardiod polar patterns. I would use it on sources that benefit from a rounded top end and really musically tuned low and upper mid-range. It would also probably be the best front of kick mic / room mic for drums of the three in Omni mode.

The Gefell is going to be the grittiest of the bunch in a slightly aggressive way from what I remember (*I'm hazy there...) but it's somewhere between both of the other mics tonally...if you can only pick one it might be the one I would choose simply because it'll work great on just about anything and because it's going to punch through any mix you make. I liken them to FET47's in that it's not a tube design and it's voicing is reminiscent of that era slightly...also it's my favorite of the three because it has three way switchable patterns! (Cardiod, Omni, AND Figure 8...since I heavily favor Figure 8 for tracking vocals this automatically becomes my favorite of the three.)

The UMT70s would work best as a mid side mic / mono overhead in Figure 8 for drums when not in use for vocals too. Also a pair would rock it on a drum kit for stereo overheads.

The Brauner is a great mic...very cool construction methods...nearly indestructible...but I believe the Panthera is only Cardiod? (Correct me if I'm wrong?) If so...blah to that. I want me some figure 8. I know a lot of people love them, but usually I get better top end with something closer to a FET47 and some light EQ...YMMV. It is by far the most modern sounding of the three.

As for genres...I think you could record music in any vein with all three...but the Gefell will work the best on the most types of music due to it's overall flexibility with polar patterns. Lastly countless hit records were made with lead vocals using FET based LDC's...so it's in good company.
Thank you, you've been very descriptive and that helps alot
I believe it is very informative replying in this manner and I find it serves us all a great deal. I hate the "tihs is the bset/ the other sucks" stuff.

I feel the most difficult thing for me will be to decide which way I'd like to go.
In my heart I have long wanted some mojo/character but then again working with acoustic instruments for sooo many years, my ears are tuned to neutrality and clearness. They are more in line with the remote/classical guys.

Ther is an internal balance I have to find...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Marinelis View Post
Thank you, you've been very descriptive and that helps alot
I believe it is very informative replying in this manner and I find it serves us all a great deal. I hate the "tihs is the bset/ the other sucks" stuff.

I feel the most difficult thing for me will be to decide which way I'd like to go.
In my heart I have long wanted some mojo/character but then again working with acoustic instruments for sooo many years, my ears are tuned to neutrality and clearness. They are more in line with the remote/classical guys.

Ther is an internal balance I have to find...
You are totally welcome Phillip!

I think the Geffell will really work for you from how your reply sounds, but maybe contact Mixwell at DSP Doctors (He's on here) or one of the other good dealers who carries Gefell to audition one? (He's the one who comes to mind but there are probably others...honestly most of the gents on here are great guys...so you can't go wrong with any of them.)

- Cary.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
contact Mixwell at DSP Doctors (He's on here) or one of the other good dealers who carries Gefell to audition one?
Unfortunately we are half a world apart. I live in Greece which is in the eastern parts of Europe.

If I'm lucky the distributor here might have one in stock. No panthera and no TM-1 to audition in theese parts though. If I had all three mics to test I could choose quite easily
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You might want to think about the Bock iFET too...just a thought.
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Thanks, I'll look into it.

Do you think going for the TM-1 would be "tone overkill" since I plan on getting the Flea47 too?
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If you go with the Flea I would get the Gefell or the iFET. I would want a FET47 type mic to counter the U47 type tube mic in A/B tests on singers.

The Pearlman is great but if you are definitely grabbing a Flea you will already have something in that vein. (The Flea is a tube variant right? I've never used one...only read about them.)
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You're probably right.

If I want something cleaner or more modern on instruments I can use my SDC's:
2xSchoeps CMC6-MK5
AKG c460
KM184's (how I ended up with 9 of those?)
Line Audio CM3's and OM1's are also planed for kind of full/warm sound.

On voices for more natural I could play with
U89

It's the middle ground I'm lacking. C414's and Gefells or Bock iFets should have me covered when tracking full bands.

Hey, I guess you're my man!

You helped me clarify my thoughts!

Last edited by Philip Marinelis; 15th October 2013 at 02:39 AM.. Reason: typo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Marinelis View Post
You're probably right.

If I want something cleaner or more modern on instruments I can use my SDC's:
2xSchoeps CMC6-MK5
AKG c460
KM184's (how I ended up with 9 of those?)
Line Audio CM3's and OM1's are also planed for kind of full/warm sound.

On voices for more natural I could play with
U89

It's the middle ground I'm lacking. C414's and Gefells or Bock iFets should have me covered when tracking full bands.

Hey, I guess you're my man!

You helped me clarify my thoughts!
Haha! Well make sure to return the favor next time you see me confused about a choice on here.

Tell me how it shakes out when you finally pull the trigger! =)
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Definitely!

Though it'll be a while... Upgrading as money comes and here the going rates are ridiculous. I hope I will complete my mic locker by the end of 2014.
Making about 20K a year and this is considered doing pretty well around here at these times
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Tell me about it...I'm raising money to move into a new place and it's been slow going the past few months. Though...things are finally starting to pick up.

Buying a console this summer nearly crippled me (emotionally)...though I still think it was worth it.
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Oh if only for the tactile control, the ergonomics and moving away from the screen...
If it's a nice sounding one I consider it an added bonus. It worth it I'm sure.

I use an Allen & Heath GSR-24m, it's ok but I last for something better.
The guys I teamed up with do a lot of post and bought a Euphonix S5 Fusion. I don't think they will get their investment back anytime soon, if ever
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I bought Fletcher's *(Former Mercenary Audio Grand Poobah's) old modified Yamaha PM2000...it's kind of like a tricked out vintage API 1604 with the ability to have inductor based EQ's if you mod them out.

32 channels and higher headroom than an API...it sounds A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.

Now I gotta get it installed into a new room and finish redoing the patch bay. =/
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Really happy for you and a bit jealus.
Not for the patch bay though, I too have to wire my racks to the new room. Oh well...

As for a console, I think the only economically viable option for me is going hybrid. So after mics, it's compressor time.

I got to hit the road. Nice to meet you,

Goodnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Marinelis View Post
Really happy for you and a bit jealus.
Not for the patch bay though, I too have to wire my racks to the new room. Oh well...

As for a console, I think the only economically viable option for me is going hybrid. So after mics, it's compressor time.

I got to hit the road. Nice to meet you,

Goodnight
Same here Philip..oh and my name in the Civilian world is Cary Miller.

Nice to meet you to brother! Have a good one! =)

*(For compressors though...look into the Chandler Germanium Compressors)
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Thanks Cary, when the time comes I'll sure look into the Germaniums.

So, now the thread is about the Gefell UMT70S and Bock iFet or...

I guess I'm looking for an alrounder type of mic. Not too much mojo, not too clean.
A mic that gives you a slightly larger than life effect but doing it so elegantly, without getting too much in the way. Kind of smooth and relaxed but open sounding at the same time.

Am I asking too much?

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I'd consider also other mics that might be great allrounders..

Neumann TLM170
Violet Design Amethyst Vintage
and since you're into 47fet-type of mic, I'm selling a pair of Beesneez T3's in the classifieds... sorry for spamming..

I hope this helps somehow..



Cheu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Marinelis View Post
So, now the thread is about the Gefell UMT70S and Bock iFet or...
These two mic's sound way different, to my ears. The IFET has a K47 screwed capsule with a fixed cardioid pattern, [and two discrete amplifier tones/sounds] and the UMT70s uses the glued M7 capsule with multiple polar patterns to an ultra clean output amplifier.

What will be more useful for you, might not work for me, etc so first hand evaluation should be a priority.

In my travels using the UMT70S, I propose it is basically an M7 "on a wire", whereas the IFET is a "Sweeter" more harmonically enhanced FET47 style. It's two amplifiers make it highly versatile. The Gefell is a lighter, [no weight] less harmonic sound. Drier and Neutral, very fast and non-hyped.

Safe to say both mic's sound great and are very useful, but taste will dictate your choice more than anything. Just gotta get them both in house and see which one appeals to you more.

peace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
These two mic's sound way different, to my ears. The IFET has a K47 screwed capsule with a fixed cardioid pattern, [and two discrete amplifier tones/sounds] and the UMT70s uses the glued M7 capsule with multiple polar patterns to an ultra clean output amplifier.

What will be more useful for you, might not work for me, etc so first hand evaluation should be a priority.

In my travels using the UMT70S, I propose it is basically an M7 "on a wire", whereas the IFET is a "Sweeter" more harmonically enhanced FET47 style. It's two amplifiers make it highly versatile. The Gefell is a lighter, [no weight] less harmonic sound. Drier and Neutral, very fast and non-hyped.

Safe to say both mic's sound great and are very useful, but taste will dictate your choice more than anything. Just gotta get them both in house and see which one appeals to you more.

peace
a.j.b
Grr...now I just want a pair of both. Yer not helpin' Mixell. Actually from your description it really sounds like they'd play well together. The Bock for when you need something to stand out and the Gefell for when you want things to feel natural and just give you the image of what's going on in the room with a little flair and no hyped freqs.

The M7 is a related capsule in all that lineage to the K47 no? So different though they may be...they will probably blend fantastically image-wise.
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I am in the same page as you, looking for a mic. I have found more than the ones you mentioned:

- The Gefell 930
- The Blackspade M17 ( i think is the model)
- The Charter Oak 538, 538b or the E700 ( 1350 $, 1450 $ or $ 899 for the E700 !)
- The pearlman Tm 2 supposedly is not that bad either.
- Telefunken Cp 29 Copperhead
- Telefunken AR51 ( 1800 $ though...)
- Bock 195 ( FET 1250 $)
- Mojave M200 ( Tube 995 $)

I still don't know what to choose but I am leaning for a used Charter Oak 538, or any of them used I wouldn't mind.... Let me know what you pick and why. It is very hard with so much options.

Good Luck,


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Of the mics you've listed, the U89 is IMO the best "all-rounder".
If I were you, I'd buy another one to have a pair.
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Thank you all for the replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetam View Post
Of the mics you've listed, the U89 is IMO the best "all-rounder".
If I were you, I'd buy another one to have a pair.
That is good logic, and yes the U89 is a great mic but after 14 years of using it I'd like something different. It's a keeper though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by entresolmusic View Post
I am in the same page as you, looking for a mic. I have found more than the ones you mentioned:

- The Gefell 930
- The Blackspade M17 ( i think is the model)
- The Charter Oak 538, 538b or the E700 ( 1350 $, 1450 $ or $ 899 for the E700 !)
- The pearlman Tm 2 supposedly is not that bad either.
- Telefunken Cp 29 Copperhead
- Telefunken AR51 ( 1800 $ though...)
- Bock 195 ( FET 1250 $)
- Mojave M200 ( Tube 995 $)

I still don't know what to choose but I am leaning for a used Charter Oak 538, or any of them used I wouldn't mind.... Let me know what you pick and why. It is very hard with so much options.

Good Luck,

I have also looked about them but for some reason they didn't make it to my final shortlist.
The AR51 sounds too bright to me, many even a tad brittle.
The copperhead on the other hand (though a nice mic), a bit dark for an all rounder.
From Bock and Gefell I'd prefer their bigger models though the iFet is a bit above budget since I'd like to pay less than 4000 euro for a pair.
the mojave doesn't ring my bell for some reason
The Blackspade seems to be U47 inspired as well as the TM1 and I chose the TM1 over the 17 simply because it keeps being mentioned for so many years it must be good. The Blackspade is relatively new and untested. But then again, for a u47 sound I'll get the flea.
From the charter oak line, I liked the 535 from some clips and I think I'll have a chance to demo it. I'll let you know if I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
These two mic's sound way different, to my ears. The IFET has a K47 screwed capsule with a fixed cardioid pattern, [and two discrete amplifier tones/sounds] and the UMT70s uses the glued M7 capsule with multiple polar patterns to an ultra clean output amplifier.

What will be more useful for you, might not work for me, etc so first hand evaluation should be a priority.

In my travels using the UMT70S, I propose it is basically an M7 "on a wire", whereas the IFET is a "Sweeter" more harmonically enhanced FET47 style. It's two amplifiers make it highly versatile. The Gefell is a lighter, [no weight] less harmonic sound. Drier and Neutral, very fast and non-hyped.

Safe to say both mic's sound great and are very useful, but taste will dictate your choice more than anything. Just gotta get them both in house and see which one appeals to you more.

peace
a.j.b
A very nice and informative post. From your comment the iFet seems more desirable to me even though I'd prefer a multi pattern mic, but I'll have to stretch my budget a bit. I'm a bit concerned about the "no weight" comment about the Gefell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
I'd consider also other mics that might be great allrounders..

Neumann TLM170
Violet Design Amethyst Vintage
and since you're into 47fet-type of mic, I'm selling a pair of Beesneez T3's in the classifieds... sorry for spamming..

I hope this helps somehow..



Cheu
I always thought the TLM70 is a slight variation of the U89. I suspect it'll sound similar, I'm I wrong?
I'll check about the violet design
From the beesneez I'd like to try a Mahalia someday.


Here in Greece the ones I believe I could demo are the Charter Oak, the Gefell and the Violet Design.
Hmm, maybe I should arrange a trip to Germany, but it's not so easy for me...we'll see.
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I still think the Gefell is probably the one...or if I was going for a pair it's the one I'd buy. Plus...FIGURE 8.....*sigh.*

The Bock though...I love David's work. So...honestly...tough call. He's the man in my book. Even though it's not the same deal with polar patterns it'd be the business on Front of Kick duties Philip.
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You 've all been very helpful.
So far the strongest contenders are the Gefell and the Bock.
I'll try to demo as many mics as I can, I won't by blind. Maybe even in my own room.

Internet Clips and all, are not so helpfull. Sometimes are even confusing. For example, in a shootout the UM70 (not the umt) was an earcatcher, exactly was I'm looking for, yet on another clip I found it too thin.
Not knowing the source, the room, the technique can be very confusing.

I will also say this:

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Sorry i will continue shortly...

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Quote:
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I always thought the TLM 170 is a slight variation of the U89. I suspect it'll sound similar, I'm I wrong?
The polar-pattern and frequency response of the TLM 170 and U89 are the same (and the TLM 193 is also the same - but cardioid only).

The main difference is that the TLM 170 and TLM 193 have a transformerless output, while the U89 has a transformer.

The only real difference is the colouration that the transformer gives to the U89.
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I'm a bit concerned about the "no weight" comment about the Gefell.
I would get a demo unit and try it for yourself.

This is the only real way.

Gefell certainly have demo units available, so try the Gefell distributor in your country.
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I'm back.
Where was I? Oh yes.

It's also important to try geae in your room if possible.

Besides everything else, I record and mix for two famous Greek composers. They have a home setup in an untreated space. They have three Neumann M149, I use them all the time. Still, I don't fell confident in describing their sound, because I always hear the room so much. Once I heard one in my studio, it was like a completely different mic.


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I'd much rather have a pair of iFET's or M70s mics than M149's. My e49 and any vintage M49 I've used always was a huge step up from the M149 on every source when we shot them out here.
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