Sony question for Michael Wagner and Sony Owners

[Audio_Vault]

Hey Michael,

Im building a recording studio in seattle. and I have a few question about the Sony DMX board. Right now im running a soundcraft ghost into digi 002. outboard pres (api,focusrite...blah blah). I thinking of selling my soundcraft and buying a digital sony board for a few reasons.

1. Im limited in the dynamics area, dont like the sound of the plug-ins i have and would like the ablilty to have dynamics, as well as filters on every channel.

2. I would like to start doing post production and 5.1 for video as well as doing stereo for bands.

Is it worth investing in great compressors, UA, Empirical labs, or should i sell my soundcraft and go digital? I guess im really wondering how do the dynamics and EQ hold up against analogue, and how is the Sony as a front end for Pro Tools in both stereo and 5.1? I will still have a few great compressors for tracking of course!

Thanks,

Mike Conway
AudioVault Productions

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by Audio_Vault

Hey Michael,

Im building a recording studio in seattle. and I have a few question about the Sony DMX board. Right now im running a soundcraft ghost into digi 002. outboard pres (api,focusrite...blah blah). I thinking of selling my soundcraft and buying a digital sony board for a few reasons.

1. Im limited in the dynamics area, dont like the sound of the plug-ins i have and would like the ablilty to have dynamics, as well as filters on every channel.

2. I would like to start doing post production and 5.1 for video as well as doing stereo for bands.

Is it worth investing in great compressors, UA, Empirical labs, or should i sell my soundcraft and go digital? I guess im really wondering how do the dynamics and EQ hold up against analogue, and how is the Sony as a front end for Pro Tools in both stereo and 5.1? I will still have a few great compressors for tracking of course!

Thanks,

Mike Conway
AudioVault Productions

Hello Mike

I love my Sonys and might be a bit biased in that direction. I also hear that a lot of people really like their Soundcraft Ghost, but I never heard one so I stick to the Sony with my opinion.

The compressors and EQs in the channel strip of the DMX are very neutral sounding (I compare the dynamic section in the DMX to the dynamic section in a SSL channel). If you want color, you will need outboard. Same with the mic pres and converters, all very neutral sounding, not bad at all, but not much color. I found that the EQs in the channels are quite helpful for broad strokes, if you want to get surgical you might have to go outboard (the Geat River EQ2 and the Chandler Germanium EQ come to mind). I don't use the compressor or the EQ on the stereo bus (my STC-8 and Manley MP are doing that duty).

The board works great in 5.1. The automation is wonderful and very easy to work with, keeps your brain activity on the right side. If you are planning to work in 96K, everything in the board halves (except for the EQ frequency now goes up to 40K), I work in 48k , so this is no problem for me.

Consider that for about $6,000 to $8,000 (going price for a used DMX with cards) you get 24 decent mic pres (12 with phantom) and a whole bunch of decent converters, 64 usable compressors, gates and EQs, not a bad deal. For the controlroom section I would bypass the D/A converter and get a Benchmark DAC-1, vast improvement over the built in one. I have no idea why SONY skimped on just that D/A converter.

Working with the console is a joy because you have pretty much no latency issues when recording. During the mix you have to use some workarounds if you want to do parallel compression on drums etc (if you get the console, call me and we talk about this).

You do have to think about interfacing your DAW to the console. If you want to mix through the console, you need an output from your DAW to the console for each track. The DMX has 4 card slots that can be outfitted with AES, ADAT, TDIF or analog cards. Slot 4 can take a MADI card which IMO is the way to go. Get a RME MADI card for your DAW (if supported) and with a pair of 75 Ohm coax cables you can transfer 48 ins and outs to and from the console. In that case you still have 3 card slots open to hook up outboard gear, one of which you might need for the 5.1 output to whatever you record your mix to. If you go back into your DAW with the 5.1 mix you can again use the MADI card. The SONY MADI card is about $2,500 and the RME MADI card is about $1,200, it's a great system though.

If you don't have a MADI card, your digital inputs are limited to the 4 card slots = 8 I/O each = 32 total. There are some extra analog and digital I/O on the console for AUXEs. STEREo BUS etc.

The SONY stores all functions of the console, including I/O routing to a "title", except for the analog trim knob on each channel. You can have 10 titles in flash memory but only one title at the time can be downloaded to a floppy disc. The alternative is the free offline editor program, that runs only on a PC. It can store any amount of titles on your PC. The editing functions on that program are very limited, but still can come in handy for some stuff. The editor PC and the DMX need to be connected with a null modem serial cable.

The console is not supported by SONY anymore. You can still get parts and repair service, but there will be no updates. Knock on wood, I have had the consoles for over 6 years and they normally run 12/6 and besides some baby problems in the beginning, I only had one major repair, which I could do myself (the driver for the light behind the touchscreen). The latest software version is 2.3. Cards are rare and hard to find, so make sure the console you are buying comes with the cards you need. The MADI card can still be found but is expensive.

Hope that helps

[Sqye]

Thanks for the typically helpful and detailed response, MW.

You're the man

[Audio_Vault]

What has to be done to use parallel compression during mixing? Im picking one up for 6500 with 3 cards. Not a bad deal i think. Thanks

[s.d.finley]

I too love my DMX. I use it w. HD2 PT system, digi 192 and an adat bridge, for 32 discrete i/o between the DMX and PT. The pres are very usable, but that damn 30 db pad is alil too much sometimes.....

And yes, thanks MW for the VERY detailed response!!!

sdf

[warhead]

I used the DMX pres during some experimentation around here and found them to be pretty much clean and neutral and sounded good on a lot of sources.

That pad is pretty crazy!

War

[Killahurts]

I recently updated my DMX with a MADI board, going into an RME MADI Board on the Mac. On the DMX I also have one AES card, going mainly to FX etc., one ADAT board going to and from the O2R in my composition room (where the keyboards and other instruments are), and another ADAT which targets a second computer. So that's 72 inputs and outputs, by a 56 channel frame. Only 48 channels on the DMX have full EQ/ Dynamics, but it's enough for me. Remember that everthing is routable to everthing on this board. I will not trade this situation for anything in the box as long as it works, or is repairable. I don't see a new digital console in it's class that can beat it. You'd have to spend many tens of thousands of $$ more.

There are NO subgroups! You must know this.. but there are workarounds, as Michael said. I'd say get the DMX, and all the outboard you were considering as well, but then I'm a gearslut.

[mltamisin]

That's an excellent description of the DMX. I assume you're cashing out the 002 for a HD or switching to Nuendo or something. The DMX is overkill for a 002 setup. The 002 only takes 8 ADAT inputs & 8 analog inputs. For tracking, this means you'd have to go A/D, D/A for the DMX and another A/D into the 002 for the 8 analog inputs, if you wanted to use the DMX's EQ/Dynamics. Better off skipping the DMX for the 8 analog in to avoid all the conversions. But if you're switching software then you're cool. I use Cubase now. It's definitely a cool board with nice features and routing capabilities. Mixing on it is a joy and the summing sounds excellent. You can route anything anywhere. Saves alot of time.
Regarding the pre's, I don't really dig them that much. Kinda dissapointed in that aspect of the board. They're in the same league as the 002's pre's or like a Digimax or something. Maybe a little better but still slightly cloudy & hazy. OK for toms. I have an Amek BC3 board as well and the Amek's pre's smoked the DMX.
Regarding EQ. Analog EQ just sounds better to me. The DMX's EQ is as useable as a Waves EQ or something. They have a different sound from each other but I don't find myself using one more than the other. Waves for surgical stuff and DMX for broad stuff. Or whatever's more convenient. I've got better plugin compressors but again the DMX's is useable to the same degree as the EQ section. They're what one might expect from a digital EQ/Dynamics section.
Due to finances, I had to sell one of my boards and since I have very few outboard pre's and no outboard EQ the DMX is gone. Just left today. Wish I could have kept both. Sucks.
So, if you've enough outboard pre's and you don't find yourself looking to your Soundcraft for EQ all the time then you'll be fine. You'll benefit from an excellent summing mixer, actual faders, 24 nice converters, excellent routing and automation capabilites, recallability, digital EQ & dynamics and 5.1 capabilities. That's alot for $6500.
Good luck - Matt

[Killahurts]

Originally Posted by mltamisin

That's an excellent description of the DMX. I assume you're cashing out the 002 for a HD or switching to Nuendo or something. The DMX is overkill for a 002 setup.

Hey Matt, if you were referring to my post, I don't have a 002, it's an O2R (the older 48 channel digital console made by Yamaha).

My sequencer is DP, I don't use Protools.

[Killahurts]

Hmmm, now I don't think you were talking to me...sorry

[mltamisin]

Sorry, an O2R is completely different than a 002.

[DCMIX]

Hey Michael,

Shout out from Memphis! Great to see you here.

I mixed the spanish version of Goldy's "Baby" a couple of years ago. That gals got one hell of a voice! And what a wonderful person she is.

I've been in the box with nuendo now for many many years. Looking to possibly break back out again. Been eyeing the DMX's and have an easy question for you or anyother DMX user with a DAW.

Does the DMX transport controls work with nuendo. I've currently got a mackie control and the transport functions work great with it. I am hoping to move into a desk and loose the MC. Just hoping that the basic transport controls on the DMX can control Nuendo.

I had that old Tascam Board (TMD8000) year ago. It was one sexy console, but my transport buttons never got a days use, as Tascam dropped its support on that desk just days before the DAW craze took hold.

Can the DMX control Nuendo 3 ?

Dennis

[vandertone]

[QUOTE=mwagener;880327]
Working with the console is a joy because you have pretty much no latency issues when recording. During the mix you have to use some workarounds if you want to do parallel compression on drums etc (if you get the console, call me and we talk about this).

Hello Michael,
it would be very helpful to get some insight in your workarounds concerning parallel
compression.
We have a very similar setup to yours(thank you for the tip with the DAC :D ) and
I really would like to know how you deal with latency(phase) issues.
Thanx in advance from hamburg.
Mirko

[muziekschuur]

The Tascam DM4800 is an great alternative to the DMX I think.
In 2007 (jan/feb) the machine will be equipped with firewire for 32 in/out at 96khz.

The machine has 4 slots (expansion) 24 faders x3 layers 24 busses 2 stereo reverbs and 2x aes ebu/spdif for two more. There is a special 5.1 surround card available.

It's around 5-6000 dollar.

I expect end 2007 Madi support.

The DM4800 will not halve it's channels at 96khz. Two dm4800's can be cascaded with the built in cascade connection (right out of the box)


Muziekschuur

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by Audio_Vault

What has to be done to use parallel compression during mixing? Im picking one up for 6500 with 3 cards. Not a bad deal i think. Thanks

Originally Posted by vandertone

Hello Michael,
it would be very helpful to get some insight in your workarounds concerning parallel
compression.
We have a very similar setup to yours (thank you for the tip with the DAC :D ) and
I really would like to know how you deal with latency(phase) issues.
Thanx in advance from hamburg.
Mirko

The latency through the console seems to be under 1ms when recording, so I never had any complains about headphone mixes being late.

The digital tracks come in via MADI on both consoles. The first page (channel 1-24) has the analog returns of outboard units like reverbs and delays, with no delay and on console two I return the two M6000 and the KSP 8 via AES digital inputs. The latency on FX like reverb or delay (duh! ) doesn't come into play, because that's what those effects are based on. Another 0.5 ms delay on a reverb return doesn't really matter. Make sure your FX boxes are set to 100% wet, otherwise the dry signal will create a phase/combfilter problem.

When mixing, I have all the tracks from Nuendo or the R-1 coming back on channels 25 through 48 on both consoles, so I can have 48 channels accessible without changing pages. Each of those "digital" channels has a delay of 67 samples on them.

If I want to parallel compress the drums, I run the original drums through the MADI card into, lets say, channel 25 through 40 (however many drumtracks I am using) on console 1. I also make a submix of the "to-be-compressed" drums in Nuendo and bring it out on a stereo bus via D/A converter into my compressor of choice (mostly the Chandler TG-1) and then back into the DMX via A/D conversion to be mixed in with the original drums. That D/A > A/D conversion chain adds exactly 67 samples delay to the audio. So I bring it back on two channels in the console that don't have the 67 sample delay on it and that makes it in time with the "digital" drum channels.

The 67 samples are what I find the latency to be in my system. Your system might have a different latency. To find out what your specific converter latency is, do this: send a snare into the DMX via the digital route (whatever you are using to bring back your tracks into the console), then send that same snare track also into your console via your analog outboard chain (D/A converter > compressor (in bypass) > A/D converter). Then change the polarity on the "analog" snare channel (careful, the old DMX had their analog inputs polarity reversed, check on that before you do this), put both channel faders to the same volume, then dial in the delay in the digital channel (set to sample) slowly until both signals cancel out, or almost cancel out, there will be some low end sound left because the two signal come in via different gear. The resulting delay (should be around 50 - 120 samples at 48K) is the latency through your analog chain. You have to do this for each different set of converters.

Now if you run vocals through a piece of analog outboard gear, they will be fine if all the digital channels are set to whatever you figured out your latency to be and the analog vocal chain is set to zero delay on that channel.

It all sounds like a big deal, but it isn't. Once you know your latency through an analog chain, it's just a matter of remembering to set the digital inputs all to that delay. I have a template I use for my setup when mixing, that includes that delay on all channels already. There is one more hitch when you are using two consoles, but that would just confuse the issue here. email me if someone is using two consoles cascaded.

Have fun...

[vandertone]

1000 times thank you for your detailed answer.
I´m just starting the measuring...

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by DCMIX

Hey Michael,

Shout out from Memphis! Great to see you here.

I mixed the spanish version of Goldy's "Baby" a couple of years ago. That gals got one hell of a voice! And what a wonderful person she is.

I've been in the box with nuendo now for many many years. Looking to possibly break back out again. Been eyeing the DMX's and have an easy question for you or anyother DMX user with a DAW.

Does the DMX transport controls work with nuendo. I've currently got a mackie control and the transport functions work great with it. I am hoping to move into a desk and loose the MC. Just hoping that the basic transport controls on the DMX can control Nuendo.

I had that old Tascam Board (TMD8000) year ago. It was one sexy console, but my transport buttons never got a days use, as Tascam dropped its support on that desk just days before the DAW craze took hold.

Can the DMX control Nuendo 3 ?

Dennis

Hello Dennis

I haven't tried that yet, but it should work with MMC. There is a template so you can use the first 24 channels of the DMX as a controller for Nuendo, just fader mute and pan, though.

[vandertone]

Originally Posted by mwagener

The latency through the console seems to be under 1ms when recording, so I never had any complains about headphone mixes being late.

The digital tracks come in via MADI on both consoles. The first page (channel 1-24) has the analog returns of outboard units like reverbs and delays, with no delay and on console two I return the two M6000 and the KSP 8 via AES digital inputs. The latency on FX like reverb or delay (duh! ) doesn't come into play, because that's what those effects are based on. Another 0.5 ms delay on a reverb return doesn't really matter. Make sure your FX boxes are set to 100% wet, otherwise the dry signal will create a phase/combfilter problem.

When mixing, I have all the tracks from Nuendo or the R-1 coming back on channels 25 through 48 on both consoles, so I can have 48 channels accessible without changing pages. Each of those "digital" channels has a delay of 67 samples on them.

If I want to parallel compress the drums, I run the original drums through the MADI card into, lets say, channel 25 through 40 (however many drumtracks I am using) on console 1. I also make a submix of the "to-be-compressed" drums in Nuendo and bring it out on a stereo bus via D/A converter into my compressor of choice (mostly the Chandler TG-1) and then back into the DMX via A/D conversion to be mixed in with the original drums. That D/A > A/D conversion chain adds exactly 67 samples delay to the audio. So I bring it back on two channels in the console that don't have the 67 sample delay on it and that makes it in time with the "digital" drum channels.

The 67 samples are what I find the latency to be in my system. Your system might have a different latency. To find out what your specific converter latency is, do this: send a snare into the DMX via the digital route (whatever you are using to bring back your tracks into the console), then send that same snare track also into your console via your analog outboard chain (D/A converter > compressor (in bypass) > A/D converter). Then change the polarity on the "analog" snare channel (careful, the old DMX had their analog inputs polarity reversed, check on that before you do this), put both channel faders to the same volume, then dial in the delay in the digital channel (set to sample) slowly until both signals cancel out, or almost cancel out, there will be some low end sound left because the two signal come in via different gear. The resulting delay (should be around 50 - 120 samples at 48K) is the latency through your analog chain. You have to do this for each different set of converters.

Now if you run vocals through a piece of analog outboard gear, they will be fine if all the digital channels are set to whatever you figured out your latency to be and the analog vocal chain is set to zero delay on that channel.

It all sounds like a big deal, but it isn't. Once you know your latency through an analog chain, it's just a matter of remembering to set the digital inputs all to that delay. I have a template I use for my setup when mixing, that includes that delay on all channels already. There is one more hitch when you are using two consoles, but that would just confuse the issue here. email me if someone is using two consoles cascaded.

Have fun...

Michael,
just wanted to let you know that your method worked perfect for me .
I did the measuring for the different converters(Sony+ProTools+DAC) and now I can mix it up forward and backwards and it really feels rock solid.
f#####g brilliant
Thank you Sir

[eleo]

Originally Posted by vandertone

Hello Michael,
it would be very helpful to get some insight in your workarounds concerning parallel
compression.
We have a very similar setup to yours(thank you for the tip with the DAC :D ) and
I really would like to know how you deal with latency(phase) issues.
Thanx in advance from hamburg.
Mirko

Hey Mirko, where exactly is your studio located?
Hamburg Sony dmx user here too, maybe we can hook up for a coffee and some gearslut talk?

cheers eleo

aka eike freese

[mwagener]

Originally Posted by vandertone

Michael,
just wanted to let you know that your method worked perfect for me .
I did the measuring for the different converters(Sony+ProTools+DAC) and now I can mix it up forward and backwards and it really feels rock solid.
f#####g brilliant
Thank you Sir