Hardware Reverbs

[Soulbrother]

Why do I keep seeing people on this site saying things like:

"Software reverbs will never be as good as my old PCM 80/90 etc" ?

Surely digital reverb boxes are just software running on custom chips? Surely even a moderately spec'd PCI card could do the same job nowadays?

Surely the 80's lexicons could easily be reproduced as a plugin even without hardware accelaration?

I mean I could understand it if they were saying, "software will never be as good as my Old Roland Space Echo/Vintage Spring Reverb/Custom Plate from 70's"

That would make sense to me. Digital things dont become vintage like analog do, they just get surpassed.

[GYang]

You are right in your conclusions if you like sound of software reverbs.
I have nothing against them.
Anyway for some (quite often) purposes Lexs 480, 224, 300, TC 4000, Eventide 2016 etc's just don't have software equivalents and whether you like it or not they are not simpley replaceable by plugins.
For low budget home studios HW reverb could be really unecessary,

[gwailoh]

In fact, TCE has ported some of their best algorithms from hardware to plugins. So there you go.

[doubledecker]

I can get by with using plugins on some not really important channels in the mix, but when it comes to vocal there is nothing like Lex.
And Lex knows it

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by gwailoh

In fact, TCE has ported some of their best algorithms from hardware to plugins. So there you go.

By a coincidence I was listening and testing TC6000 VSS3 reverb on PowerCore just half an hour ago ... Also Classic Verb and MegaVerb. Yes, they are very nice and of top quality. But when I directly compared them to my Lexicon PCM-91, there was immediately an extra colourful "aura" around everything in the Lexicon sound. Rich, lush non-static space ... TC reverbs seem to sound a bit more clean and more linear. Sure, preferable for some musical genres and tastes. I personally like more "fantasy" in the sound. Which is Lexicon ...
To my ears, no reverb plugin comes even close to the Lexicon dimension (I mean PCM-91 and higher). The only SW reverb I would not mind to use on my records is Altiverb (I mean - its churches and cathedrals ... sound very deep and real)

[severe]

I've got a Kurzweil Rumour on the way. It'll be my first dedicated, more or less, outboard reverb, not including some older Alesis all-in-one units I've owned.

I'm hoping it gives me a little more mojo on some sources than its plugin counterparts.

[robmix]

I think difference lies in the sum of the parts - extra conversions, how the algorithms are ported to the plug-in's, limitations in the outboard box or the DAW. I've gone back and forth beween all ITB and lately mostly outboard. The outboard just has more depth. I recently picked up a PCM-70 and out up the Quad delay patch (something I thought I'd replicated on a plug-in) and the sound just killed. So much depth. On boxes like the H3000 the convertors are a huge part of the sound.

[oceantracks]

My PCM 91 sounds better than any reverb plug in I've heard, that's why I got it...for small rooms and things plugs are fine, for the big halls though, nothing like a Lex...

TH

[u b k]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

...for small rooms and things plugs are fine, for the big halls though, nothing like a Lex...

to my ears, small rooms are where the plugs are weakest.


gregoire
del
ubk
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[yeloocproducer]

Even the princeton 2016 TDM for small rooms? I'm pretty pleased with it but I don't have hardware to compare it to...

[gwailoh]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

By a coincidence I was listening and testing TC6000 VSS3 reverb on PowerCore just half an hour ago ... Also Classic Verb and MegaVerb. Yes, they are very nice and of top quality. But when I directly compared them to my Lexicon PCM-91, there was immediately an extra colourful "aura" around everything in the Lexicon sound. Rich, lush non-static space ... TC reverbs seem to sound a bit more clean and more linear. Sure, preferable for some musical genres and tastes. I personally like more "fantasy" in the sound. Which is Lexicon ...
To my ears, no reverb plugin comes even close to the Lexicon dimension (I mean PCM-91 and higher). The only SW reverb I would not mind to use on my records is Altiverb (I mean - its churches and cathedrals ... sound very deep and real)

But the thread isn't about whether Lexicon verbs are better than TCE's, the thread is about whether the algorithms from hardware reverbs can be ported to other platforms, including plugins. TCE has shown that they can. Why does the Lexicon company show no interest?

[88fingerz]

Has anyone here heard/worked with IK Multimedia's CSR?

[Alexi]

Originally Posted by 88fingerz

Has anyone here heard/worked with IK Multimedia's CSR?

i am interested in this too....

[True North]

Originally Posted by 88fingerz

Has anyone here heard/worked with IK Multimedia's CSR?

Based on the feedback from this board I tried them out and bought them. They are the best sounding algo based Native Reverbs plugins that I have ever heard. They did an outstanding job with these plugs. I wouldn't say it is quite as thick and lush as an original hardware based verb but pretty darn close. I can hear a difference even with the cheap Lexicon I have in my rack (MPX 550) VS the other native based plugs I have used in the part but I haven't directly compared the CSR plugs to any hardware based reverbs yet.

I agree with Sounds great the Algo's were created with the convertors on the original units - they are part of the instrument if you will.

[severe]

Originally Posted by robmix

...I've gone back and forth beween all ITB and lately mostly outboard. The outboard just has more depth.

Something I look for in a reverb.

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Not the best unit to judge against i.m.o. It is not in the same class as the high end TCs, Lexicons mentioned.

Well, I guess I was kind of askin for that...posting it in the "High end" forum. However, I don't know if a plugin with a $400 price tag qualifies as "High end" either. The Rumour has gotten some great reviews at its price point, which is nearly the same price as some plugins.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by GYang

Anyway for some (quite often) purposes Lexs 480, 224, 300, TC 4000, Eventide 2016 etc's just don't have software equivalents and whether you like it or not they are not simpley replaceable by plugins.
For low budget home studios HW reverb could be really unecessary,

[raal]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

The converters in the hardware boxes are unique to each box. They aren't necessarily the best, but they have a sound, and the sound was present when the programmers created the programs and algorithms. They work together as one.

maybe when some companies realize there's just as much money or more in plugs as in the hardware, they'll start designing software taking different converters into consideration - even giving options within the program: 'with X converters, we suggest you use this'.

in short (imho) of course it's possible to make very good quality plug-verbs. matter of time. of course a hardware box would then be the equivalent of 'duende'... and of course with 'vintage' verters the box would cost a grand more.... in the year 2000...

[living sounds]

I've got two Lexicon Nuverbs, basically Lex300s in old, old Nubus Macs. The cards are huge, but I'm sure they could be smaller today. So it could be done. The question is: Do they want to do it?

Originally Posted by Soulbrother

Surely even a moderately spec'd PCI card could do the same job nowadays?

[Barilla]

Originally Posted by True North

I can hear a difference even with the cheap Lexicon I have in my rack (MPX 550) VS the other native based plugs I have used

Underrated, I think. Sure, it aint a PCM 70, but it's still a solid little reverb. Definitely better than Lexi's really cheap end stuff like the 110 or whatever. Nice to have it running via SPDIF within your DAW, too.

[vocomotion]

Wouldn't you be running most of these hardware reverbs with digital ins/outs? In that case, what do the built-in converters matter? In that case it's all just digital. If you had the very same algorithm in a plug-in as you do on that digital box, then it's all the same. Don't tell me that "it's the processor doing the DSP that's different, even though it's the same algorithm." That's like those guys who said they could hear the difference in the same digital audio that was recorded on a Western Digital harddrive as opposed to a Seagate harddrive...

I think there could be truth in the fact that these hardware boxes sound better than any plug-ins existing today...but I'm curious as to why.

I used to own Lexiverb for PT back in the day. Too bad they discontinued it...maybe they were just making more money on PCM91's.

--> freddie

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by u b i k

to my ears, small rooms are where the plugs are weakest.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Do yourself a favour and download IK Multimedia's CSR reverb demo ! To my ears it's doesn't sound close to it's hardware equivalents but exactly the same , no funny artifacts in these verbs, no matter how small the decay ......

[u b k]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

Do yourself a favour and download IK Multimedia's CSR reverb demo ! To my ears it's doesn't sound close to it's hardware equivalents but exactly the same , no funny artifacts in these verbs, no matter how small the decay ......

software just doesn't move me enough anymore to pique my interest; i occasionally demo stuff to see the state of the state, but the $30 key is a dealbreaker for me. it's all very good stuff these days, but i've come to a place where i'm only laying out cash for world class gear that i'll likely never outgrow or replace, stuff that works on a level the plugs can't touch.

in that light, next up for me is a real plate.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by u b i k

software just doesn't move me enough anymore to pique my interest; i occasionally demo stuff to see the state of the state, but the $30 key is a dealbreaker for me. it's all very good stuff these days, but i've come to a place where i'm only laying out cash for world class gear that i'll likely never outgrow or replace, stuff that works on a level the plugs can't touch.

in that light, next up for me is a real plate.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Well i'm like you in as much that i've always felt that hardware offered a degree of 'warmth' and presence in the reverb deparment , something i always felt lacked in software land , even with convolution reverbs which are good but don't really have their own algorithmic character IMO , i always felt sofware reverbs were hard to place in a mix and reverb tails were very hard to balance , until i heard the CSR that is ! If you do have a friend with a setup to download a demo for you to have a listen , i think you will be pleasantly surprised .

[severe]

Originally Posted by vocomotion

Wouldn't you be running most of these hardware reverbs with digital ins/outs?

In my case it's analog cable to an aux channel on the analog board.

Originally Posted by vocomotion

I think there could be truth in the fact that these hardware boxes sound better than any plug-ins existing today...but I'm curious as to why.

Jim just concisely answered that.

Originally Posted by Sound Bloke

I have an AKG BX20 and I love it - is this not up to date any more? What do you mean by a plug in reverb? I plug into my BX20 - is there a new means of interconnection?

Here.

[vocomotion]

I don't think Jim just answered that. He explained why a 224XL will sound better. I get that. But a PCM91 or PCM80...they're digital. If you use the digital in/out (AES, etc), it's the same as being a plug-in, essentially. So why should a PCM91 sound better than a software version of the same algorithm? It shouldn't.

--> freddie

[GearHunter]

On a related subject, I have recently had fun checking out the Demeter RV-1 Real Reverb, the genuine analog spring device. It sounds great! We've gotten so used to the sound of digital verbs and plug-ins, it's a real treat to hear the real analog deal. Very rich and deep and lush and wide. Sounds like a plate. Not springy or y at all (a tad noisy, but not a deal-breaker, especially at it's price). I'm impressed. click on products, then reverb

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by robmix

On boxes like the H3000 the convertors are a huge part of the sound.

does that mean that those boxes don't actually sound any better when you're using them via AES/EBU or SP/DIF? seems counterintuitive to me.

[feyshay]

Originally Posted by vixapphire

does that mean that those boxes don't actually sound any better when you're using them via AES/EBU or SP/DIF? seems counterintuitive to me.

I've never really been comfortable with the idea that these converters are adding something to the sound. The only thing that would seem to be happening is an extra step of A/D and D/A conversion by going through the analog inputs of the reverb unit. I've never noticed a difference in the sound, honestly, with the hardware unit that I use (Kurzweil KSP8).
I generally try stay in the digital realm once I am already there. But then I don't have the experience that a lot of the folks have that are making such comments.
I can say that I have not found a plug-in that can even get the the level of the KSP8. I have not yet tried Altiverb, which some say is the best out there.

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by vocomotion

I don't think Jim just answered that. He explained why a 224XL will sound better. I get that. But a PCM91 or PCM80...they're digital. If you use the digital in/out (AES, etc), it's the same as being a plug-in, essentially. So why should a PCM91 sound better than a software version of the same algorithm? It shouldn't.

--> freddie

480L, 960L, TC6000 etc. they all are digital ... yet there are no plugins so far which would sound the same good ... why, I don´t know ...

[vocomotion]

I think the answer is just that Lexicon has decided not to sell their reverb algorithms in plug-in form, anymore. I think that's it, just economics.

--> freddie