recording in stereo, or doubling guitar parts? Which sounds better?

[Reag1502]

Lately I have been recording my guitar parts by recording in mono on one side, an going back and recording again the same thing on the other side. Its kind of pain to do but sounds good, and really spreads the sound out. My question is, if stick two mics on my cab, and just record in stereo is it going to sound the same or better? It would sure make things easier, but maybe it would take away from the slight chorus sound that you get from two seperate guitars. What's your take on this? Thanks

[AdamLazlo]

I personally prefer the multiple tracks/multiple takes, like how you have been.

Yet again... I've worked with bands that really want one pass of guitar but still be "just as big".... in that case I'll dual cab from a head with multiple mics, usually to capture various frequencies (low, mid, and high -- and/or close, mid, far). Even in that case I'm trying to compensate for a sound I prefer where one rhythm guitar is double tracked (separately) and panned. Now if you want a chorus to pop out... do a dirty mid-range third guitar in the center.... that's pure love. Or do somewhat of the opposite... have two passes of a rhythm guitar, pan them 50-50 (not fully left right - somewhere extreme but not fully) then record two more rhythm guitars during chorus' only with some 250Hz bump and pan them, respectively, extreme left and right.

-- Adam Lazlo

[Reag1502]

Thanks, yeah that sounds cool, but would like to keep it fairly simple. I am also thinking in terms of playing the stuff live as well. If I have a bunch of different guitar takes on the album, and try to capture that sound live,,, might be a problem. It seems to me if I just have two rhythem guitar parts either recorded one at a time or stereo, and solos recorded in mono, I could do that live by just micing my rhythem cabinet in stereo, and my lead cab in mono?

[mhartman]

Keep doing two takes in mono l/r for the CD. They will always sound bigger than stereo micing the same take. Don't worry about playing live so much when you are tracking the CD. If you are just double tracking the same part, it should be tight enough that no one really notices the lack of two parts live. Do the stereo mic thing for live, plus some delays panned left and right if you want it big. Remeber, live most people are only going to hear one side anyway.

Personally, I double most guitar parts and I use two mics on each take ('57 and a Royer 121). I don't pan the same takes separately though...I just use them to fill the sonic spectrum fuller.

Make your CD sound as big as possible (if that is what you are going for). When you are live, the volume and the energy will make things "big" on its own.

Sorry for rambling on, I just finished off a nice bottle of wine and a big steak.

[adamcal]

IMHO stereo miking one amp is a bit of a waste of time, if you have a stereo amp, and dual boxes, or indeed a stereo box, then sure.

remember stereo is about the differences on each side, One mono guitar into one mono amp into a mono cab, will not sound particularly stereo when miced in stereo. (unless you go far away - then its the room that's stereo)

that's why you double it, pan them, different takes = differences = bigger stereo.

if you really want only one played part, but a big stereo sound, you will need to get either 2 amps, some stereo fx, and either dual cabs or a split cab (with a stereo or 2 heads), then mic that in stereo.

even a simple delay pedal on only one of the amps set to about 33ms will sound quite big and sort of doubled.

[Reag1502]

Originally Posted by adamcal

IMHO stereo miking one amp is a bit of a waste of time, if you have a stereo amp, and dual boxes, or indeed a stereo box, then sure.

remember stereo is about the differences on each side, One mono guitar into one mono amp into a mono cab, will not sound particularly stereo when miced in stereo. (unless you go far away - then its the room that's stereo)

that's why you double it, pan them, different takes = differences = bigger stereo.

if you really want only one played part, but a big stereo sound, you will need to get either 2 amps, some stereo fx, and either dual cabs or a split cab (with a stereo or 2 heads), then mic that in stereo.

even a simple delay pedal on only one of the amps set to about 33ms will sound quite big and sort of doubled.

Thanks that sounds great. Yeah I have two amps, and I wanted to do that as well. Mic up both cabinets for a stereo sound. I already do that when playing lead stuff, and it sounds bigger than the Grand Canyon. I can't wait to capture that when I record next.

[bobx]

Originally Posted by mhartman

Personally, I double most guitar parts and I use two mics on each take ('57 and a Royer 151).

if the Royer is anything like the Bacardi, i think i'll have to have a taste.

[SiliconAudioLab]

You should put one directional near the front of the cab (like a 57) and two matched stereo pairs as "overheads" (or further back).

After you record your first take you should then move those "overheads" around a bit (or drop in two totally different mics) and next record your "doubling" take.

You will then have 6 - COUNT 'EM - SIX tracks of your glorious self. And you can NOT complain because you already have LOTS of other tracks to spare.

Now GO! Go and record yo bad self and post the result. No really.

[gwailoh]

Originally Posted by Reag1502

Lately I have been recording my guitar parts by recording in mono on one side, an going back and recording again the same thing on the other side. Its kind of pain to do but sounds good, and really spreads the sound out. My question is, if stick two mics on my cab, and just record in stereo is it going to sound the same or better? It would sure make things easier, but maybe it would take away from the slight chorus sound that you get from two seperate guitars. What's your take on this? Thanks

Putting two mics on the cab isn't necessarily "stereo"; neither is putting one mic each on two cabs. Depends on where you place them: X-Y, spaced, M-S, all that stuff. If you simply put them next to each other as many of us do, you'll have two mono sources for tonal variation; but that's not "stereo".

When you double the part you're doing something different than stereo because the multiple takes are going to interact. Some people think this sounds "bigger" than stereo.

Probably the best answer is: experiment and decide what you like better.

[Reag1502]

Originally Posted by gwailoh

Putting two mics on the cab isn't necessarily "stereo"; neither is putting one mic each on two cabs. Depends on where you place them: X-Y, spaced, M-S, all that stuff. If you simply put them next to each other as many of us do, you'll have two mono sources for tonal variation; but that's not "stereo".

When you double the part you're doing something different than stereo because the multiple takes are going to interact. Some people think this sounds "bigger" than stereo.

Probably the best answer is: experiment and decide what you like better.

So if I mic up 2 seperate cabs, and pan them both left and right that's not stereo? Hum you learn something new everyday. Well let me give u guys an example of something I am working on now. I am doing a ballad thats got clean echo chords thru out like the Edge might do. When he gets that Streets Have no Names sound. How is he doing that? THe sound I am getting by doubling the parts sounds amazing, so I guess I'll just keep doing that. I was just looking for an easier alternative.

[Led]

There is no easy alternative to doubling. Delays, pasting again, none of it has the subtle timing and velocity shifts that make doubling sound wider and bigger.
My friend Marky once said - if it don't spin round it aint got the sound - similar rules apply here.

[gwailoh]

Originally Posted by Reag1502

So if I mic up 2 seperate cabs, and pan them both left and right that's not stereo?

No, not if they're close mic'd. In that case they're just two mono tracks panned left and right -- although of course there'll be different tone/response from the two amps.

To be stereo with one or two or twelve amps you'd have to place a stereo mic array somewhere in the room.

The point is that it's not "stereo" unless the microphones relate to each other as a stereo pair, whether that relation is an x-y placement, or mid-side, or a spaced pair or etc.

Simply panning mono sources left/right doesn't make stereo. Stereo is about the time and phase relationships between the mics.

[pigpen]

double...triple...quadruple....whatever it takes

[Reag1502]

Originally Posted by pigpen

double...triple...quadruple....whatever it takes

I don't know why, but I almost feel that is cheating LOL Its like, why can't you get a good sound with ONE amp, why do you need 10 to sound any good. How is it that someone like Eddie Van Halen can get a HUGE guitar tone with 1 amp on the first album?? I feel lame recording 2 guitar tracks right now. I guess I got problems .) Like you said thogh what ever it takes

[pan]

Originally Posted by Reag1502

I am also thinking in terms of playing the stuff live as well. If I have a bunch of different guitar takes on the album, and try to capture that sound live,,, might be a problem.

Don't bother about live while in the studio!

[pigpen]

the live show is the furtherest thing from my mind when doing a record.....as far as how EVH can record one track and it sound so good.....you might have the same luck if EVH is your guitarist!

Seriously though I have done both, but if the huge guitar wall is what you are after, I have not found 1 track to get that sound.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Reag1502

I am also thinking in terms of playing the stuff live as well. If I have a bunch of different guitar takes on the album, and try to capture that sound live,,, might be a problem.

you didn't ask, and i don't know jack, so take this with a grain of salt...

imo it is less than ideal to shape a recording around the live experience, or vice versa. the studio is a gorgeous and artificial world, and how fake you want to go is a matter of personal taste but once you go beyond 'two mics in a room capturing everything at once' all bets are off.

i love gorgeous productions where everything is done to serve the listening experience that is unique to recorded music. no rules exist, nothing is held back, and so much magic is present that the thing unfolds and reveals itself continuously over years and years of repeated listening.

i love live performances where the focus is on delivering the *energy* of the music rather than on re-creating the album note for note, tempo for tempo, section for section. this is a matter of giving yourself over completely, holding nothing back, and letting the muse have her way with you. this amount of letting go takes practice. lots of practice.

separate the two realities out, make each as strong as it can possibly be on its own terms, in its own unique way, and you will be a remarkable gift.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by Reag1502

Lately I have been recording my guitar parts by recording in mono on one side, an going back and recording again the same thing on the other side. Its kind of pain to do but sounds good, and really spreads the sound out. My question is, if stick two mics on my cab, and just record in stereo is it going to sound the same or better?

No, it won't sound better. What might sound "better" would be if you played through 2 different cabs at the same time, mic'ing them both.

Another option is to double mic a single cab, playing 2 passes through it.

[Soldier777c]

Double it baby!!

And smoke you a "mono" cigar.

[DonPedro]

Originally Posted by u b i k

you didn't ask, and i don't know jack, so take this with a grain of salt...

imo it is less than ideal to shape a recording around the live experience, or vice versa. the studio is a gorgeous and artificial world, and how fake you want to go is a matter of personal taste but once you go beyond 'two mics in a room capturing everything at once' all bets are off.

i love gorgeous productions where everything is done to serve the listening experience that is unique to recorded music. no rules exist, nothing is held back, and so much magic is present that the thing unfolds and reveals itself continuously over years and years of repeated listening.

i love live performances where the focus is on delivering the *energy* of the music rather than on re-creating the album note for note, tempo for tempo, section for section. this is a matter of giving yourself over completely, holding nothing back, and letting the muse have her way with you. this amount of letting go takes practice. lots of practice.

separate the two realities out, make each as strong as it can possibly be on its own terms, in its own unique way, and you will be a remarkable gift.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Kiwiburger]

So if I mic up 2 seperate cabs, and pan them both left and right that's not stereo? Hum you learn something new everyday.

The problem is - your guitar is mono. If you have two identical amps and two identical speakers, they will output basically the same sound. So while it will be stereo, the differences between left and right will be so subtle that it will just sound like mono.

You need to make one side different - in time, pitch, eq, phase, distortion - anything to make it different.

A mild chorus effect can work - that's some delay and glitch-free pitch shifting.

It's not cheating to use multiple takes - anymore than a painter is cheating by adding more paint to the canvas. It's been done since the tape recorder was invented - and the sounds you are comparing to have always had overdubs.

I'm fairly sure EVH used a big chorus or delay to get those wide sounds with a single take. (I don't have any EVH to listen to - not a big fan).

Artificial methods of doubling/tripling tend to sound artificial and have mono compatibility issues. It's hard to beat the organic quality of just doing more takes.

Or if you can use a lot of room sound, use stereo mics and take advantage of the stereo-ness of the reverb field. Or try dry sound on one side, mono reverb on the other. To stop this sounding unbalanced you would need a keyboard or something else doing the opposite thing.

[ToneRanger]

I have never tried stereo recording with guitars.. Have tried and used two mic setups though..

We mainly do and record guitar driven retro pop/rock.. The main rhythm guitar part in the choruses are normally doubled. I think doubling sounds good, even if the parts are the same. I think it's best not to double the same guitar twice. We usually go for a bit different tastes for both parts. Say the left channel part played with a 50's style Fender Telecaster thru a Bad Cat Cub II and then the right channel part played with a Gibson Les Paul thru a 1974x for more spice and more sound... It sounds very interesting and live that way.

[andychamp]

Heavy/hardrock-style riffing gains a lot from doubling and panning. The tighter it's played, the fatter it sounds. But don't tutt time-align the 2 tracks, you'll lose the little differences that help make it wide.
OTOH, open, ringing, jangly sounds would benefit more from recording a single pass in stereo, either by micing 2 distinct amps/cabs. or by going the direct + ambient mics route.
I think it all boils down to how close (if at all) you want the recording to match the live performance.

[MarkRB]

I've had great results putting guitar through two cabs (1 instance in particular) a MesaBoogie4 and JCM-800 in the same room, close micing those, then putting up a stereo pair in the room, sounded just awesome. The two amps reacted differently in the room giving the room mics a real organic movement.

Didn't need to double track :-)

Still love DT'd guitars tho.

[davenutz]

not exactly on topic....but:

Never discount a well placed room mic for mono guitar recording. if you have the room and time to do it properly, it can open up a whole new world of depth and dimension that ive never been able to achieve with just close mics.

try 1 or 2 close mics, and 1 room mic....double as desired.

Using this method, i sometimes mute the room mics in the verses, or at least automate a volume shift from room to close miced sound.

[el cochino]

Always double track, or 4 or 6...

[Infernal Device]

Originally Posted by u b i k

you didn't ask, and i don't know jack, so take this with a grain of salt...

imo it is less than ideal to shape a recording around the live experience, or vice versa. the studio is a gorgeous and artificial world, and how fake you want to go is a matter of personal taste but once you go beyond 'two mics in a room capturing everything at once' all bets are off.

i love gorgeous productions where everything is done to serve the listening experience that is unique to recorded music. no rules exist, nothing is held back, and so much magic is present that the thing unfolds and reveals itself continuously over years and years of repeated listening.

i love live performances where the focus is on delivering the *energy* of the music rather than on re-creating the album note for note, tempo for tempo, section for section. this is a matter of giving yourself over completely, holding nothing back, and letting the muse have her way with you. this amount of letting go takes practice. lots of practice.

separate the two realities out, make each as strong as it can possibly be on its own terms, in its own unique way, and you will be a remarkable gift.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

So true. So true. Whenever a band says they want the record to capture the "true energy" of the stage show I tell them no problem. You all play together, get one pass at the song, I'll make sure that nobody can hear eachother, and I will pour some beer on some 57's and throw them somewhere in front of your instrument. If they REALLY want the true feel, I'll have 5 drunk people stand in back of the room ignoring you. Can't more genuine that that.

[Reag1502]

Thanks guys this is all really good stuff to know When I'm on the cover of Guitar Magazines, I'll make sure that everyone at the Gear Slutz forum is recognized

[Santiago]

Actually, sometimes recording a guitar in stereo can give great results.

If you listen to U2's Acrobat off Achtung Baby, it's mostly just one track of guitar recorded in stereo.

I have no idea how it was recorded, but it has a lot of room sound and sounds very powerful.

The fly has again this sound, though there are many guitar tracks there fighting for space.

Santiago

[djui5]

Originally Posted by Reag1502

So if I mic up 2 seperate cabs, and pan them both left and right that's not stereo?

Umm, yes, it is stereo, unless they are the same exact cabs with the same exact speakers sounding exactly the same..