Ribbon mic quandary

[Steve Chiasson]

For quite awhile now I've been searching for a simple, unobtrusive way to record small acoustic ensembles in their native habitat - think, "bluegrass band standing around in a circle." I've been generally satisfied with the sonic quality of the M+S recordings I've been doing, but when I heard the recording of the Wailin' Jennys done by Steve Barker and Pete Cutler (http://www.royerlabs.com/session_pho...in_jennys.html) using an SF-24, I was instantly sold. THIS is the way to go! Now, here's the quandary...<p>I could go for the SF-24, but since AEA has just introduced The Ribbon Pre, which would seem (on the surface, anyway) to address any concerns I might have regarding sufficient gain and/or impedance matching, I'm considering using that with an SF-12 instead. The advantage to that is that I get to add another nice pre to my rack for about the same money as I'd spend on the SF-24.<p> That said, my MAIN concern is getting absolutely the best quality recording I can get. I should mention that the SF-24 (should I go that route) would be routed through either my Focusrite Red1 or my True Systems P2 Analog. Anybody want to weigh in on this one?

[David@MVS]

Originally Posted by Steve Chiasson

[FONT="Verdana"]Now, here's the quandary...<p>I could go for the SF-24, but since AEA has just introduced The Ribbon Pre, which would seem (on the surface, anyway) to address any concerns I might have regarding sufficient gain and/or impedance matching, I'm considering using that with an SF-12 instead.

Well I only have the SF-12. I really dig that mic. I mainly use it for drum OH and some electric guitar (but I have a 121 for full-time duty).

I have on occasion, used the SF-12 for acoustic and for vocals and it was fine.
I used either an API or a Crane Song Spider and it was more than quiet enough at moderate gain ( I really did not need to jack the gain so much).

I dont know about the P2, but I am sure the Red will have plenty of clean gain for the SF-12.

Best would be to order from Mercenary and if the SF12 does not cut the mustard, then send it back and get the SF-24.

Good Luck,
David

[Jamz]

You may want to call Royer to discuss your needs and the differences between these two mics.
Speak with John Jennigs. Very helpful guy.

[MIKEHARRIS]

SF-24...SF-24...SF-24...by the way....SF-24

Coolest new mic in the past 35 years i've been selling this stuff. (KHE second)

Should work great with either Red1 or True...add a tube pre for more "richness" or an alternative color

I believe a skilled recordist can make a living with just this one mic

[Petimar]

AEA TRP is amazing. I have an R121 and it made it way better sounding. I'd got for the 12 and the TRP.

[Petimar]

opps!

[Ollie]

If you are doing mostly quieter acoustic music, then I would not flinch at getting the SF-24. I bought a used SF-12 that is great on many things: drum kits, great on percussion, great as a room mic. I do not find it as good for quieter acoustic sources. Lots of gain is required. I think you will have more flexibility with the 24.

[swankdoc]

Earthworks QTC30's or 40's?

[john caldwell]

What about the AEA R88? I consider it a tremendous value. I recently got the AEA TRP, and while I've not yet used the pair for what you propose, I'm favorably impressed with the initial results of R88 > TRP.

Isn't the R88 less expensive than are the Royer units?

Best,

John-

[warhead]

Originally Posted by swankdoc

Earthworks QTC30's or 40's?

I would skip the "QTC" models for this application as they are intended for very quiet sources and would possibly clip with a band jamming around them. The Earthworks stuff is a very good suggestion, a TC30 (formerly known as the TC30K) itself might be excellent in the center of things. I am assuming this because you outlined everyone would be in a circle so a single omni of high quality would likely deliver...whereas an X/Y configuration would only give you part of the picture.

A figure 8 pattern could also be the solution again...depending on how circular that circle is.

War

[Steve Chiasson]

Originally Posted by john caldwell

What about the AEA R88? I consider it a tremendous value. I recently got the AEA TRP, and while I've not yet used the pair for what you propose, I'm favorably impressed with the initial results of R88 > TRP.

Isn't the R88 less expensive than are the Royer units?
Best,
John-

Thanks, John. I have considered the R-88, but I already own an R-84 (and I'm assuming here that the R-88 is basically two R-84s one on top of the other). Though I regard that mic VERY highly, it's not quite the sound I'm after. Judging from the sample clips I heard on the Royer website, the SF-24 is just more articulate than the R-84 - a more defined top end and a more even frequency response overall. On paper, the response curve of the SF-12 is identical to the SF-24. The X-factor that I have a hard time wrapping my brain around (I blame my relatively limited experience in this area) is how preamp gain and impedance matching affect the overall quality of the sound.

Steve

[Steve Chiasson]

Originally Posted by Jamz

You may want to call Royer to discuss your needs and the differences between these two mics.
Speak with John Jennigs. Very helpful guy.

Actually, I've considered that. Call me a cynic, but I guess I just assumed they'd want to sell me the pricier mic. Maybe not, though. It's certainly worth a phone call. And this Gearslutz thing is pretty durn cool, too - I must say! There are lots of folks out there with way more experience than me, and I think it's fantastic that folks are willing to share that. Though the election (as it were) is still too close to call, I want to say thanks to all for posting! You guys are great!

Steve

[Steve Chiasson]

Originally Posted by warhead

I would skip the "QTC" models for this application as they are intended for very quiet sources and would possibly clip with a band jamming around them. The Earthworks stuff is a very good suggestion, a TC30 (formerly known as the TC30K) itself might be excellent in the center of things. I am assuming this because you outlined everyone would be in a circle so a single omni of high quality would likely deliver...whereas an X/Y configuration would only give you part of the picture.

A figure 8 pattern could also be the solution again...depending on how circular that circle is.

War

Well, War, the circle is just exactly that - a circle! And one of the downsides of the M+S setup I've been using is indeed the fact that I can't get a circle out of it (the same problem as the X/Y config you mentioned). Part of the beauty of a stereo ribbon is the Blumlein pair aspect. You get the full sound source picture, as it were. I could do a Blumlein with any two matched mics that will do figure 8 (414s for example), but another key piece of the equation for me is SIMPLE setup. With that in mind, I might go for something like the TC30 if I weren't bound and determined to get a stereo image out of this!

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Steve Chiasson

Thanks, John. I have considered the R-88, but I already own an R-84 (and I'm assuming here that the R-88 is basically two R-84s one on top of the other). Though I regard that mic VERY highly, it's not quite the sound I'm after. Judging from the sample clips I heard on the Royer website, the SF-24 is just more articulate than the R-84 - a more defined top end and a more even frequency response overall. On paper, the response curve of the SF-12 is identical to the SF-24. The X-factor that I have a hard time wrapping my brain around (I blame my relatively limited experience in this area) is how preamp gain and impedance matching affect the overall quality of the sound.

Steve

Steve,
The AEA mics have a similar character but each model is tuned a little differently.
I have (2) R84s, R88, R92 and the new TRP. For me the R88 is the more balanced of the 3 models. The R92 has less bottom, a little brighter and isn't as affected by proximity as the other models. The R84 has the biggest bottom. The R88 seems to have a very nice balance from low to high without extremes.
IMO My Royer 121 has a more "modern" sound with slightly more forward midrange. I haven't used the Royer stereo mics but seeing how each manufacturer has a different sound I could see looking into one of the Royer stereo mics even though I have the AEA stereo mic. Different colors.
I've had good conversation with John. He seems like a guy truly excited by the product moreso than a salesman. Can't hurt to speak with him to get the details about each mic.

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Steve,
The AEA mics have a similar character but each model is tuned a little differently.
I have (2) R84s, R88, R92 and the new TRP. For me the R88 is the more balanced of the 3 models. The R92 has less bottom, a little brighter and isn't as affected by proximity as the other models. The R84 has the biggest bottom. The R88 seems to have a very nice balance from low to high without extremes.

I also have 2 84s, 2 92s and still want an 88. I agree with your assessment. I've used the 88 with great results where I didn't care for the 84s, like on solo piano.

[Steve Chiasson]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

I also have 2 84s, 2 92s and still want an 88. I agree with your assessment. I've used the 88 with great results where I didn't care for the 84s, like on solo piano.

Hmmm... Things seem to be getting cloudier instead of clearer! The R-88 is sounding like a viable option now. If anyone out there has done an A/B with the 88 and either of the Royers, I sure would love to hear your thoughts!

Steve

[Ollie]

Originally Posted by Steve Chiasson

Hmmm... Things seem to be getting cloudier instead of clearer! The R-88 is sounding like a viable option now. If anyone out there has done an A/B with the 88 and either of the Royers, I sure would love to hear your thoughts!

Steve

This should not be that cloudy. If you like the SF-24 get the 24, if you need to hear the 88 rent or pay for one with the option to go to the 24.

[Lynn Fuston]

I know the Wailin' Jennys recording that you refer to in your original post. John Jennings gave me a copy of the recording several years ago at AES. I've listened to it dozens of times. I love it--the performances and the sound. If that's what you're after, get the Royer. I have tried several Royers on vocals (121, 122, SF-24) and have never cared for them. But I never tried using them on the Wailin' Jennys.

The results of that recording are undeniable though. They all sound incredible. It's one of my favorite recordings.

I will say that the AEAs and the Royers are drastically different mics, regardless of the fact that they are both ribbons. If you want the sound you heard on that recording, then get that mic, that mic preamp and signal path and that group of girls. Apart from that, you'll have to experiment and see what works best for you.

Get them side by side. That's the only way you'll know.

[Steve Chiasson]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

I know the Wailin' Jennys recording that you refer to in your original post... If you want the sound you heard on that recording, then get that mic, that mic preamp and signal path and that group of girls. Apart from that, you'll have to experiment and see what works best for you.

Get them side by side. That's the only way you'll know.

Point taken, Lynn. I doubt I can get the Jennys to come sing for me, but it might be possible for me to A/B them (the mics, that is) using one of the groups I do have access to. Now, if only I can persuade some dealer to send me both with an option to buy one or the other!

[AB3]

Lynn - do you remember the kind of piano? Was it dark, bright like a yamaha, etc?

I imagine that the ribbons would be great on bright pianos. I am curious if the one you tried it one was darker or in the middle (i.e. steinway).

By the way, I have tried a pair of 84s in XY (as much as you can xy them!) and they sounded awesome on mandolins.

THANKS.

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

I also have 2 84s, 2 92s and still want an 88. I agree with your assessment. I've used the 88 with great results where I didn't care for the 84s, like on solo piano.

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by Steve Chiasson

Now, if only I can persuade some dealer to send me both with an option to buy one or the other!

Call Fletcher or Jay at Mercenary and tell them that Lynn sent you. They'll take good care of you.

Actually, you could leave out the Lynn part. They'll sell mics to anybody, regardless of referrals.

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by AB3

Lynn - do you remember the kind of piano? Was it dark, bright like a yamaha, etc?

I imagine that the ribbons would be great on bright pianos. I am curious if the one you tried it one was darker or in the middle (i.e. steinway).

This was a 7' Yamaha MIDI Grand. Typical bright Yamaha with great action. It records very well in a track. When you're doing solo piano and voice though, it's way too forward. It competes with the vocal.

The 88 tamed it in a nice way, and the imaging was phenomenal, probably the best I've ever heard. You could close your eyes and point to individual notes, where the strings were in the stereo field. It had a nice warm sound but with definition. The best part though is the way it wrapped around the vocal. Didn't fight it at all. I absolutely loved it, if you can't tell.

[AB3]

I was hoping you would say something like that! Is there a clip at that awesome website:
3daudioinc.com

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

This was a 7' Yamaha MIDI Grand. Typical bright Yamaha with great action. It records very well in a track. When you're doing solo piano and voice though, it's way too forward. It competes with the vocal.

The 88 tamed it in a nice way, and the imaging was phenomenal, probably the best I've ever heard. You could close your eyes and point to individual notes, where the strings were in the stereo field. It had a nice warm sound but with definition. The best part though is the way it wrapped around the vocal. Didn't fight it at all. I absolutely loved it, if you can't tell.

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by AB3

I was hoping you would say something like that! Is there a clip at that awesome website:
3daudioinc.com

Lots of clips there, but not one of that recording. Sorry.

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

This was a 7' Yamaha MIDI Grand. Typical bright Yamaha with great action. It records very well in a track. When you're doing solo piano and voice though, it's way too forward. It competes with the vocal.

The 88 tamed it in a nice way, and the imaging was phenomenal, probably the best I've ever heard. You could close your eyes and point to individual notes, where the strings were in the stereo field. It had a nice warm sound but with definition. The best part though is the way it wrapped around the vocal. Didn't fight it at all. I absolutely loved it, if you can't tell.

Lynn, would you mind sharing how you positioned the 88 on that piano.

[squeegybug]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

If you want the sound you heard on that recording, then get that mic, that mic preamp and signal path and that group of girls.

And don't forget that Mackie mixer for EQ, as you mentioned when you originally posted that clip

One of my favorite recordings too, but the extreme panning may not work for many situations IMO.

Oh, and the group changed shortly after that recording, so you can't even get that Wailin' Jennys anymore.

Are the SF-24, R84, and R88 all on your ribbon CD, Lynn?

Steve

[midnightsun]

I have a AEA 84 and recently picked up a Coles 4040. They are both great mics and are totally different. I think a proper preamp with ribbons is very crtitical especially if you are in need of lots of clean gain for tracking acoustic instruments in a nice ambient environment. I have a modest collection of good preamps and the 1084s are the only ones that really bring out the beauty of the ribbons for acoustic/ambient recording. For recording acoustic guitar my favorite is the Coles 4040. It seems to maintain the delicacy in the high end better than most mics. I am puzzled as to why there isn't more of a buzz regarding the Coles 4040, but I bought it based on my ear and actually had never hear of it until the day I tried it. You won't find much hype on the Coles 4040.

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by squeegybug

Oh, and the group changed shortly after that recording, so you can't even get that Wailin' Jennys anymore.

Are the SF-24, R84, and R88 all on your ribbon CD, Lynn?

I heard the new girl with them on A Prairie Home Companion from Wolf Creek and they sounded pretty fine still.

The ribbons on the Ribbon Roundup CD were only mono mics, on purpose. So no 88 or SF-24. But there are other things you might enjoy. I'm not sure if they'll help you make up your mind or not. And you can tell what mics are on the CD by looking at the picture too.

[Lynn Fuston]

Originally Posted by Jamz

Lynn, would you mind sharing how you positioned the 88 on that piano.

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Lid at full stick. Mic angled up toward the hammers about 15 degrees. 8-10 inches above the strings.

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by Lynn Fuston

And you can tell what mics are on the CD by looking at the picture too.

Great shot. I love ribbon mics. The word covet comes to mind
You should release a 3Daudio calendar.

Thanks for the 88/piano micing tip. The only ribbons I've used on piano were the Coles 4038s on a Steinway C7. Very nice. I'm anxious for the opportunity to try the 88.