AD/DA Convertors or Preamp?

[RBowlin]

I'm slowly adding high end gear to my studio. I've got a UA-610 that I love (I know some of you guys hate it but I've really gotten that "record" sound out of it). I've got a Projectmix control surface/sound card that has its own convertors. I need another preamp and am looking at the API 512c. But am I robbing the sound from a good preamp by not having a good convertor? Should I get an Apogee (or something like that) first and a preamp later? Or will I step up the ladder a little quicker with a high end pre and get a AD/DA convertor later?

I love this stuff, but sometimes the decisions whack me out

-Rich

[danasti]

Originally Posted by RBowlin

I'm slowly adding high end gear to my studio. I've got a UA-610 that I love (I know some of you guys hate it but I've really gotten that "record" sound out of it). I've got a Projectmix control surface/sound card that has its own convertors. I need another preamp and am looking at the API 512c. But am I robbing the sound from a good preamp by not having a good convertor? Should I get an Apogee (or something like that) first and a preamp later? Or will I step up the ladder a little quicker with a high end pre and get a AD/DA convertor later?

I love this stuff, but sometimes the decisions whack me out

-Rich

Honestly nobody can answer this but you. You need to order a couple converters and an api 500 rack w/ some modules from a dealer (most will be eager to help) with the intention of buying one peice and sending the others back.

They will give you a few days to check em' out.

[RBowlin]

Thanks for the reply. I guess what I'm trying to determine is whether a great pre with average convertors produce a "better" sound than an average pre with a great convertor. I know this stuff is very subjective, I was just looking for some general guidance.

-Rich

[danasti]

Originally Posted by RBowlin

Thanks for the reply. I guess what I'm trying to determine is whether a great pre with average convertors produce a "better" sound than an average pre with a great convertor. I know this stuff is very subjective, I was just looking for some general guidance.

-Rich

Rich,

I'm totally serious. I'm not trying to give you the "try it yourself" generic answer but you have a good idea of what you like in the pre you have. You also have a converter that's capable of a s/n ratio of gear that 10 years ago was high end.

So because you have adjusted your ears to these peices you need to sit down with some stuff and give it a good going over. Only way is for you to really record some stuff on it - play it back and make the call.

There are so many variables that I know nothing about. What kind of music you make - what kind of music you like - your skill level as a musician - your skill as a engineer - what your space sounds like...let alone your mic collection...

I would try some if I were you - there really isn't a better way to do it.

[RBowlin]

Hi Danasti,

You know, I was thinking about your reply on my way home from work. You are absolutely right. I'm an attorney by trade and I often get those somewhat generic, impossible to answer without further info type questions. So that you gave a reply at all is appreciated.
I can pickup a lunchbox and an 512C for a little over a grand. I've become addicted to this stuff and I can't stop myself.
As for the style of music, I've been recording and mixing mostly pop/folk/ac guitar stuff. My engineering skills are improving. I'm reading everthing I can get my hands on, listening to everything, a/b my mixes with stuff I like and so forth. I live on this forum, though I rarely feel qualified to even make a post.
I just finished soldering up my bantam patchbay. I'll be workling on room acoustics soon.
There's plenty of info on this forum about mic pres so I won't be posting about that. Again, thanks for the response.

-Rich

[squeegybug]

Originally Posted by RBowlin

I've got a Projectmix control surface/sound card that has its own convertors. I need another preamp and am looking at the API 512c. But am I robbing the sound from a good preamp by not having a good convertor? Should I get an Apogee (or something like that) first and a preamp later? Or will I step up the ladder a little quicker with a high end pre and get a AD/DA convertor later?

I don't know Projectmix. My experience has been that even cheap preamps sound amazingly better going through Lavry AD.

I would have made lots of different decisions about mics, preamps, compressors, EQs, etc. I've owned if I had just put the $ in the converters *first*.

Can't bypass the cornerstone of digital recording IMO.

Steve

[Big 3rd]

Yeah man...that is a real tough one. I love my Apogee but I also love my 1073dpd.

If I were to choose one of the two....just for the sake of giving you a straight answer, which most of this stuff every has straight answers attached to them....

I'd say go with the converter.

One thing I hate is to have great production OTB and it not be AS great once it's ITB. I look at it like this, a decent to bad pre won't ADD enough color to be noticeable and MORE desireable to an already great production but a decent to bad converter will actually SUBTRACT away from a great production and some of the smallest of details will not translate. And as you know, sometimes it's that reverb tail or how crispy the pluck on the acoustic guitar that really adds to the authenticity of that great song.

Now that is the straight forward answer based on my opinion but really danasti is on to something.

Hope I could help you with your decision.

[danasti]

Originally Posted by RBowlin

I'll be workling on room acoustics soon.

That will be your ticket to good sound. You can't have a good recording if your sounds are bad to begin with.

Seriously - the one job a converter has to do, it's only responsibility, is to sound exactly like the last analog output.

Take those analog outs plug them into a pair of say Meyersound HD-1, Genelec 8050, Adam s3A or whatever you feel the best is. Now take the coverted recording and play it back through those same speakers. Go ahead and switch back and forth.

Now what you're after is not the converter having a good sound. The way to judge it and compare it is to judge how close it sounds to the last analog out in you chain.

Certain converters like a Lavry Gold are far from just a converter. If I had a studio with over $200k in gear or for mastering a Lavry Gold would make sense as a creative option. Other than that I would judge it based on how close it sounds to the analog it's converting.

Personally I had good 16 and 20bit converters along the way. The converted material played back through the DA and compared to the original analog sounded so strikingly close many people would not know the difference.

Now I know this is not popular to say, I should be rambling on like some audiophile about "imaging", transparency, clarity, warmth and every other completely overhyped marketing buzzword. I should just yap back the same old nonsense but I just don't find it to be even slightly true.

Converters that are compared, while properly calibrated and level matched that is, should sound only subtley different. Again, they should be directly compared to the analog output. Again, that is it's ultimate goal - to "be" the analog output. Again, the converter should not sound "better" than that.

Reading about converters sometimes I want to throw up, get sick and puke. Last week I was working over at a friends and we used his Mytek (picking it over his rosetta for the simple fact that it was plugged in). I took it home and recorded a little more and played it back through my AD8000se. It sounded just like the little API mixers output. I swear. SOOOO close it's scarry, WOW! That mixer really sounds good and it's tone really came out. I'm sure the rosetta would have sounded like the API too. I know it, I've used it before.

I would go back to my 20bit converter in a second to mix a record if I had to choose to stay in 24bit but use a bunch of cheap mics and cheap mic amps. WITHOUT A DOUBT. Not even a question to me WHATSOEVER. WHY? Because, It sounded like the last analog output. If that sound is a good one it will be a good recording.

[GearHunter]

Yeah...but what if you get a high-end converter only to find out the LA610 sounds much crappier than you thought.

Go API. In fact, let's kill two birds: Get the API A2D which has TWO API pres AND a very good-sounding converter. Not really that much more than getting a lunch-box and one 512 pre, and it's much LESS than getting a lunchbox and TWO 512 pres. (Ok not MUCH less, but a little less or around the same)...

API A2D

And, not only can you use the pres without the converter, you can use the converter stand-alone as-well.

What's there not to like?