Who's most important? Singer/Song writer/engineer/producer/musicians

[Jazzy Alz]

In any given song, who is more important?

What I mean is which role has the biggest influence to the end result. Every song is different but let's talk generally.

In my opinion, this would be the order -

1) Song writer
2) Singer/Musicians
3) Producer/Engineer (mix/master)

[Norman Lindsey]

the song writer is always the most important.

[Slater]

Songwriter! Then singer.

[Reza]

It really does depend on the music though.

For say an acoustic soul track - the songrwriter and the singer by far. But for a dance track or even a Hip-Hop track? Production becomes really key.

I don't think you can really generalize this.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Who's more important? The actor, the script, or the filmmaker?

They're both immensely loaded questions. You could NEVER make up for a truly lacking singer, however. And you can buy a mix. Or a beat. Or a song, for that matter.

Fix it in the marketing. That's my final answer.

P.S.: A little story, which I have told before. I went to a major label A&R with whom I am on a first-name basis -- I brought an artist I'd been producing for a low-ball fee based on the hopes that it MIGHT go somewhere...suffice to say that she was mid-teens, fit the "image," had the cred FWIW (opened for platinum teen stars as a solo singer, worked with top vocal coach) etc...The A & R mentioned that the younger sister of a HUGE teenage movie star had come through literally the day before. In the era of Auto-Tune (Melodyne!), who gets the deal? Really...I might as well have left right then and made an engineering fee elsewhere.

If the songwriting is most important, let's do a cover of "Whole Lotta Love" and have it be one TENTH as vital as Led Zeppelin's version. Got the chords down...good...how about the vocal melody...no problem..."You need COOOOOL----ING!!!!!"

[entropy]

I'd say for most of the commercial crap out there:

Marketing Hype

Rythmn Section

Song/Arrangement

Mix

Vocalist

just my .02 peso's

[djui5]

Originally Posted by Reza

But for a dance track or even a Hip-Hop track? Production becomes really key.

I don't think you can really generalize this.

Even then a lot of times the "producer" is the songwriter, or some guy funding the record...

[montanasan]

The songwriter and the listener are the most important.

[rashadrm@hotmai]

All of the above along with the consumer who validates all the hard work that went into it.

[allencollins]

definitely the guitar player but only if he plays a tele..........

Id say the song. Many miserable singers have had success with great songs

[joaquin]

all of them...your chain is only as strong as the weakest link...
but ...probably the cawbell player

[thenoiseflower]

Song Writer & Bass Player

that said, in REALITY,

if the drummers hot the song can be shit and still get people dancin'.

SOOOOO, who knows? the listener, yes.

[frans]

The one who pays the bills?

Nah, it's the song. There ARE bands that you should never try to cover, Led Zep among them. Bauhaus, Joy Division, the Who, Swervedriver.

A good drummer can make up for a lot.
So, where do I get one for my band....to make up for my sloppy playing?
Doubledamn.

[wyomingbound]

Originally Posted by Jazzy Alz

In my opinion, this would be the order -

1) Song writer
2) Singer/Musicians
3) Producer/Engineer (mix/master)

I agree it's the songwriter by far. Songwriters like Paul McCartney, Diane Warren, Robert Mutt Lange, George Gershwin,etc are much more talented than singers like Madonna, Janet Jackson, etc.

To generalize more examples:

• compose, songwriting --> perform
• book author --> voice talent to record audiobooks
• choreograph --> dance
• playright --> actors
• theoretical --> applied
• engineering --> manufacturing
• design --> build
• architecture --> construction
• design --> code
• strategic --> tactical
• planning --> execution
• mastermind thief casing the museum --> burglars
• think 90% do 10% --> do 90% think 10%

I think it is clear that the left side of the arrow is more important. The people on the right side of the arrow are downstream. Singers are dependent on songwriters and not the other way around. Singers are important but they are not more important than songwriters.

Today, we know who Shakespeare is... but we do not remember any actors that performed his plays. We know who Mozart is, but no violinist or piano player is anywhere near as famous.

Some more thoughts... I grew up without MTV and cable TV so I often made mistakes who actually sung a song I heard on the radio. Some examples...
"I'm No Angel" -- thought this was Bruce Springsteen all my life until last year
"Can't Fight The Moonlight" -- thought this was Janet Jackson for years
"Breathless", Robert Mutt Lange wrote it but so many singers could have sang this... The Coors or Shania Twain or Wilson Philips or Banarama... none of those women write their songs and they are all interchangeable (especially when you layer 20 tracks of voices). Regardless of whether you like RML style of songwriting, there's no denying the real talent is his songwriting.

Another weird observation... singers are often insistent on getting "writing credit" for "collaborating" on a song regardless of how marginal their "contribution". There is something prestigious about the ability to write a song.

[max cooper]

I read recently something that Steve Albini said. It was something like how as an engineer/producer you can f*ck it up or not f*uck it up, but you can't make something great if it's not great to begin with.

Over the years, I've come up with a short checklist for anyone wanting to record or start a band.

(in order of importance)

1. Does anyone have any songs?

2. Can anyone sing?

3. Can anyone play the drums well?

[thenoiseflower]

Originally Posted by max cooper

1. Does anyone have any songs?

Thing about music today is...

[Reza]

Also arrangement is massively important in letting a good song shine!!!

This is often under-estimated by acts/producers that are still starting out.

[Bob Olhsson]

It can be completely blown at any point in the process including tracking mixing and mastering.

The song needs to inspire the whole team. The musicians, arrangement and sound quality need to inspire the singer. The mix and mastering need to inspire the marketing folks, press and radio folks.

The producer's job is to make sure everybody involved is inspired while challenging them to perform their very best.

[bunnerabb]

Important.

To whom?

Define "important".

Everybody is important to the whole process and the results of that process speak for themselves. And, as Mr. Olhsson said "Everybody has to be inspired" because you can't sell something you don't believe in.

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by bunnerabb

Important.

To whom?

Define "important".

Everybody is important to the whole process and the results of that process speak for themselves. And, as Mr. Olhsson said "Everybody has to be inspired" because you can't sell something you don't believe in.

This isn't even debatable. The song.

There are a ton of poorly recorded and sub-performed records over the decades that have been hits....because everyone loves the song. I have never heard of a record not making it because it was poorly recorded or badly performed. Off key vocals, distorted pressings, the works. It still skyrockets because everyone has the hook in their head...

TH

[popmann]

This isn't even debatable. The song.

Sure it is.

A garage band of teens playing Elenor Rigby versus a tight band playing "Hit Me Baby one More Time"?

All day I'll take the good band/singer.

We forget that it's music--it's a moment. the "song" is just framework for that to happen in...important? Sure--what isn't? But, the end all? No way...

Here's my 2 cents...you need two elements of magic to blend. Great singer, song, production, arrangment, instrumentalist...none of those alone will work. Yet, pick any two and make them great (not just passable, but magical)--and the resulting "moment" will work.

[themaidsroom]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

It can be completely blown at any point in the process including tracking mixing and mastering.

The song needs to inspire the whole team. The musicians, arrangement and sound quality need to inspire the singer. The mix and mastering need to inspire the marketing folks, press and radio folks.

The producer's job is to make sure everybody involved is inspired while challenging them to perform their very best.

i think it's safe to say that we live in a pretty song-free era right now

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by popmann

Sure it is.

A garage band of teens playing Elenor Rigby versus a tight band playing "Hit Me Baby one More Time"?

All day I'll take the good band/singer.

We forget that it's music--it's a moment. the "song" is just framework for that to happen in...important? Sure--what isn't? But, the end all? No way...

Here's my 2 cents...you need two elements of magic to blend. Great singer, song, production, arrangment, instrumentalist...none of those alone will work. Yet, pick any two and make them great (not just passable, but magical)--and the resulting "moment" will work.

Ask Kevin Costner how important a good story is, vs great production and fine acting...he found with "Waterworld".

You don't need a great singer to make "magic." You don't need "great players" to make a hit record. You need those things to please a certain aesthetic that some, dare I say "most" of us appreciate...but it isn't necessary. Again, I have oodles of well recorded and well played albums that went nowhere, while "Louie Louie" went to number one.

The public will remember a song a lot longer than they remember anything else about the record, and that's the bottom line. That's why covers of old tunes become hits again, not because they are "covered better".....

TH

[wyomingbound]

Originally Posted by bunnerabb

Important.

To whom?

Define "important".

Everybody is important to the whole process and the results of that process speak for themselves. And, as Mr. Olhsson said "Everybody has to be inspired" because you can't sell something you don't believe in.

Yep, everybody is important... but everyone is not equal in importance. Some people in the process are more interchangeable than others.

[Sticky Shed]

Interesting. If the songwriter is so intrinsic to the success of the song - something I'd dearly like to believe - why does the songwriter currently have so little status in the public mind. And if said songwriter had more status would not the anti be upped and the quality of contemporary song writing improve?

(All questions, rhetorical)

[Stefan Elmblad]

Without a good song, no mic placement in the world will rescue anything. You might as well mix white noise.

Songwriter is most important, then the performance.

[danasti]

Originally Posted by Jazzy Alz

In any given song, who is more important?

What I mean is which role has the biggest influence to the end result. Every song is different but let's talk generally.

In my opinion, this would be the order -

1) Song writer
2) Singer/Musicians
3) Producer/Engineer (mix/master)

See the way you phrased the question you'd have to answer songwriter. Why?

Because there is no song without the songwriter. It doesn't exist.

How it ends up sounding is a combination of everyone.. the producer will modify if need be but melt the artist with the song and the engineer balances and brands it with a unique sonic texture and tone.

So no song without it being written but everyone plays a key role in its final sound. Plus record company, marketing, djs and radio, video - they can even have an impact on how someone thinks of a sound.

[edvdr76]

Originally Posted by Jazzy Alz

In any given song, who is more important?

What I mean is which role has the biggest influence to the end result. Every song is different but let's talk generally.

In my opinion, this would be the order -

1) Song writer
2) Singer/Musicians
3) Producer/Engineer (mix/master)

To me, every link in the chain matters. If you have a weak link in your chain, then your song suffers. You need a good song to start, then you need good musicans to perform the song to the best ability possible. Then of course you need someone with the pipes to sing the song. You need a good producer to make sure everyone is doing their job right, by doing their job right I mean the producer needs to make sure the musicians dont over or underplay their parts, needs to capture the best vocal take (by best I dont mean perfectly sung, I mean capture the energy and essence of the song). Then you need a skilled engineer who can help you capture all these elements on to tape. You could have a brilliant band with a brilliant producer but if the engineer sucks, then youre gonna be stuck with a crappy sounding song that nobody wants to listen to because the mix is horrible.

[Stefan Elmblad]

I think producers are very important if you want high class throughout the chain (from song idea to CD), but compared to the songwriter/performer more or less not needed at all. I would much rather listen to Elvis singing a wonderful song through a broken cassette deck all day long than some dfegad out-of-tune idiot singing my neighbours dfegad halfass songs procuded by the best studios and producers in the world.

[popmann]

The public will remember a song a lot longer than they remember anything else about the record, and that's the bottom line.

Wait a minute...are you holding Louie Louie up as good...even passable songwriting?

...then we're gonna disagree across the board.