New Main Monitors
Old 22nd December 2012
  #1
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New Main Monitors

Hey guys!

I have decided to install a pair of main speakers in my studio. Im very sensitive to "non flat" "flattering " monitors and would rather have a pair of mains I can actually use instead of them beeing a client wow factor.

If you see the picture attached my only option is to install the mains in the corners where my basstraps are . Me and my acoustian have designed a soffit solution with a "floating" speaker in a huge basstrap. Some rebuilding is needed.
The decision is to buy a pair with seperate amps that can be soffit mounted.

Main work is music recording,mixing and mastering. Its almost impossibble to audition different pair of soffit mount speakers in norway so I appreciate every input you might have on the subject.

My budget is maxed at 30 000 $ . My room is 5m wide and 8,5m long. Ceiling in the mid is about 4m.

So far Im looking at ATC, PMC, Dynaudio M3VE, Genelecs, Klein and Hummel, Quested..
Im generally like more forward mids than the "hifi" curve. I might even try the Trinnov system to get the mains as flat as posibble.
Every suggestion is appreciated

Thanks!
Attached Thumbnails
New Main Monitors-202704_10151044951677205_377003123_o.jpg   New Main Monitors-288036_10151044953527205_1987982937_o.jpg  
Old 22nd December 2012
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I recently went with ATC SCM 110's with remote amps. They are nothing short of stunning. I went with them because they are a little faster than the 300s and only lose out a about 3dbs in the bottom end.

Building your soffit mounts in a bass trap??? If I were you I'd take a second opinion from one of the top acousticians around here. I did after the guy I first engaged to design my new place suggested a few things I was concerned about (bass trap mounted mains was one of them).
Old 22nd December 2012
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Out of curiosity, what's wrong with the current set up?
Old 23rd December 2012
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I would certainly add Geithain to your list - the top ones can be soffit mounted and have the amplifier/crossover section on an umbilical.

Also the top end "K" series have a cardioid response in the bass and don't go omni-directional at low frequencies like other loudspeakers - so your bass is being put into the room and not radiated into the walls.
Old 23rd December 2012
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Originally Posted by Trev@Circle View Post
I recently went with ATC SCM 110's with remote amps. They are nothing short of stunning. I went with them because they are a little faster than the 300s and only lose out a about 3dbs in the bottom end.

Building your soffit mounts in a bass trap??? If I were you I'd take a second opinion from one of the top acousticians around here. I did after the guy I first engaged to design my new place suggested a few things I was concerned about (bass trap mounted mains was one of them).
Thanks!

The 110´s look very interesting. Im a bit concerned about the amp size which seems very low compared to the thousends of watts of some of the other contenders. The smaller basscones is also a consern. Do they get loud enough to fill my room with earthshaking lows for demanding clients..haha

Regarding the basstrap he thinks that by removing the cornertraps we will change the linearity of the room which we are pretty satisfied with as it is. By instead making a lower basstrap with the same volume as the ones innstalled we can soffit the speakers ontop of the basstrap making it all look like a part of the walls. No good ?
Old 23rd December 2012
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Originally Posted by steveschizoid View Post
Out of curiosity, what's wrong with the current set up?
Hey mate!

For 20 years I have been used to working with nearfields, midfields and mains. Last year I bought a pair of Barefoot mm27 to have it all in one speaker and sold my other speakers except the avantones. Despite of the wonderful workingtool the mm27 are, I miss having the bigger mains with wider sweetspot and simply another reference.

Besides the reference I have to admit that having the opportunity to switch to a pair of bigs that gives you a out of world sound is just fun and gives me inspiration when creating music.
Old 23rd December 2012
  #7
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Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
I would certainly add Geithain to your list - the top ones can be soffit mounted and have the amplifier/crossover section on an umbilical.

Also the top end "K" series have a cardioid response in the bass and don't go omni-directional at low frequencies like other loudspeakers - so your bass is being put into the room and not radiated into the walls.
Thanks!

Looks interesting. I haven´t heard any of the models so I´m not familiar with the sound. Do you have any way to describe the typical qualities of the sound ?
Old 23rd December 2012
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If you like the mm27s, why not go for the mm12's?
By all accounts they are monsters.
The 'woofers' are the same drivers as the mm27's subwoofers. Tells you how huge they are.
Old 23rd December 2012
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Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
If you like the mm27s, why not go for the mm12's?
By all accounts they are monsters.
The 'woofers' are the same drivers as the mm27's subwoofers. Tells you how huge they are.
The MM12 is absolutely something I´d like to audition in my room. I´d have to re-think the hole soffitmount solution though .. Have you heard them ? Do you know what the measurments are? Barefoot havent updated his web so theres little information on the tech spec ..
Old 23rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post
Thanks!

Looks interesting. I haven´t heard any of the models so I´m not familiar with the sound. Do you have any way to describe the typical qualities of the sound ?
Neutral, clean and accurate - like it is.
Old 23rd December 2012
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Old 23rd December 2012
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post
The MM12 is absolutely something I´d like to audition in my room. I´d have to re-think the hole soffitmount solution though .. Have you heard them ? Do you know what the measurments are? Barefoot havent updated his web so theres little information on the tech spec ..
No, but judging by the quality of the MM27's, and the spec and price difference, I expect these monitors to be quite amazing.
20Hz - 40kHz (+/- 3 dB ); 24Hz - 30kHz (+/- 1 dB )

+- 1db from 24hz to 30khz sounds ridiculous.
Old 23rd December 2012
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Old 23rd December 2012
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
I would certainly add Geithain to your list - the top ones can be soffit mounted and have the amplifier/crossover section on an umbilical.

Also the top end "K" series have a cardioid response in the bass and don't go omni-directional at low frequencies like other loudspeakers - so your bass is being put into the room and not radiated into the walls.
Just out of interest, what's the advantage of a cardioid bass response with soffit mounted speakers ?
Old 23rd December 2012
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Originally Posted by Sylvester217 View Post
Just out of interest, what's the advantage of a cardioid bass response with soffit mounted speakers ?
It won't be butting so much bass energy into the wall itself.
Old 23rd December 2012
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
It won't be butting so much bass energy into the wall itself.
Where are the vents on the box? It works like a mic (cardiod bass does) unless there are multiple drivers.

Cardioid bass

It would need to be far enough out from a wall for the bass to travel around the box unless they are on the side there. Wouldn't work for a soffit mount.

To the OP, I would consider looking into who in your area might be able to do a custom build. With DSP XO's it really isn't rocket science and it gives you the ability to tailor the response a bit to your taste. You can get it all done CNC to where it can be accurate in size to the mm and the sofit can be part of the baffle. Lots of great options to build around these days SEOS waveguides (what I'm doing), beyma tpl-150 or traditional drivers etc. If you want exceptional dynamics with low IMD at high levels it almost has to be 3.5 way. For 30k you could probably even get baffles cnc'd from silestone or granite if your floor will support the weight. Might be worth looking into.
Old 23rd December 2012
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Where are the vents on the box? It works like a mic (cardiod bass does) unless there are multiple drivers.

Cardioid bass

It would need to be far enough out from a wall for the bass to travel around the box unless they are on the side there. Wouldn't work for a soffit mount.
It depends on the model - some are on the side and some are on the rear.

But all you have to do is to make sure the cardioid ports are not blocked and to make sure that the soffit mount allows the air to get to them.

This *has* been thought of.
Old 23rd December 2012
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Where are the vents on the box? It works like a mic (cardiod bass does) unless there are multiple drivers.

Cardioid bass

It would need to be far enough out from a wall for the bass to travel around the box unless they are on the side there. Wouldn't work for a soffit mount.

To the OP, I would consider looking into who in your area might be able to do a custom build. With DSP XO's it really isn't rocket science and it gives you the ability to tailor the response a bit to your taste. You can get it all done CNC to where it can be accurate in size to the mm and the sofit can be part of the baffle. Lots of great options to build around these days SEOS waveguides (what I'm doing), beyma tpl-150 or traditional drivers etc. If you want exceptional dynamics with low IMD at high levels it almost has to be 3.5 way. For 30k you could probably even get baffles cnc'd from silestone or granite if your floor will support the weight. Might be worth looking into.
Tempting
Old 23rd December 2012
  #20
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Has anyone heard the new Dynaudio M3VE or XE? Iv had great experience with listening to the esotar drivers in the past and the integrated lake system for room compensation really appeal to me. The price (26 000 euro +tax)might be a bit over what I had in mind but what a hell... Il sell my car or something

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=rplazh0q2Bk
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File Type: png m3xe_persp.png (351.3 KB, 487 views)
Old 24th December 2012
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
It depends on the model - some are on the side and some are on the rear.

But all you have to do is to make sure the cardioid ports are not blocked and to make sure that the soffit mount allows the air to get to them.

This *has* been thought of.
Makes sense, I was thinking in terms of a wall-loaded soffit, where it would seem the front wave couldn't fully load off the walls and simultaneously go around back for the cancellation. But I'm sure that would work better with the crossover BSC they implement out of the box (really on any speaker). Only saying that if you were to purpose build a speaker for a wall-loaded soffit, it would probably be counter-intuitive to try to also employ pressure loaded directivity for the bass as the wall loaded soffit is already a different way to accomplish that.

I'm sure the MEG's are a excellent speaker, I haven't had the chance to hear them.
Old 24th December 2012
  #22
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Audiovisjon, what is your distance for the mains? I'm assuming the barefoots would stay?

One thing maybe worth thinking about is that the barefoots located where they are would probably be a rather large diffraction source (and probably the monitor screen as well to some extent), unless you can get a more directional speaker rather high and aimed down over the top of them it might be a bit of an either-or proposition in terms of one or the other being setup ideally. Big purpose built augspurgers for example are usually installed rather high for this reason (and are pretty tight esp vertically).

One thing you might think about including in the budget would be some sort of motorized system to raise and lower the BF's (and maybe screen?), they make them for raising a TV out of a bedside table. It would be a shame to spend 30k on the speakers and not get the best out of them. Food for thought at least...
Old 25th December 2012
  #23
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Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Audiovisjon, what is your distance for the mains? I'm assuming the barefoots would stay?

One thing maybe worth thinking about is that the barefoots located where they are would probably be a rather large diffraction source (and probably the monitor screen as well to some extent), unless you can get a more directional speaker rather high and aimed down over the top of them it might be a bit of an either-or proposition in terms of one or the other being setup ideally. Big purpose built augspurgers for example are usually installed rather high for this reason (and are pretty tight esp vertically).

One thing you might think about including in the budget would be some sort of motorized system to raise and lower the BF's (and maybe screen?), they make them for raising a TV out of a bedside table. It would be a shame to spend 30k on the speakers and not get the best out of them. Food for thought at least...
Thanks!
Good advice .. I have actually though of using the Barefoots in horizontal position and buy a smaller screen, but your idea is quite fancy. Im experimenting these days with horizontal position but Im feeling the sound changed a bit. Seems like a buildup in the 2-400 region..hmmm.They also seemed a little brighter but when I position the tweeters slightly outside my ears the highs balanced out. Il try different position in the room.

Iv also thought about buying a pair of smaller atc smc25 with less bass instead of the mm27 if Im happy with some new mains, but nothings decided yet.
I will be sitting about 3,5-4.5 m from the mains and have a clear view with no obstickles to them.
Old 25th December 2012
  #24
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While you might not be able to get moniters to your room or in your general vicinity to audition have you given any though to traveling to a place(s) where you can audition speakers with your standard reference CD's? For that kind of budget to buy blindly based on net talk/marketing is silly. I'm partial to JBL LSR32's for midfield passives which you can find at a reasonable used price here in the US but I have no idea about what is available by you.
Old 25th December 2012
  #25
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Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
While you might not be able to get moniters to your room or in your general vicinity to audition have you given any though to traveling to a place(s) where you can audition speakers with your standard reference CD's? For that kind of budget to buy blindly based on net talk/marketing is silly. I'm partial to JBL LSR32's for midfield passives which you can find at a reasonable used price here in the US but I have no idea about what is available by you.
Thanks mate!

I of course agree :-)
However I have learned over the years that if I need to have a good knowledge about a subject , reading one book is not gonna cut it. However reading ten books about the subject gives me a much better opportunity to create my own opinion. Speaking with colleages around the world sharing their experiences is of great value and just one of the many things I do to make up my mind.

The list of monitors to choose from is endless.
Information from forums, studios, stores, reviews, demos and listeningtests often helps to narrow this list down to the speakers or gear I´d like to audition. To audition three or four pairs of speakers will probably take at least three month so I need to narrow down the list to the speakers that has every thing Im looking for and fits my needs.

Although its hard to get a demo of speakers in this range most of the companies have a returnpolicy if Im not happy with the purchase after a short audition period. There is usually a small fee to pay when returning but thats understandable.

Thinking that I base this kind of purchase on a couple of forum opinions is as you pointed out silly.
Hope that clear things up !
Old 25th December 2012
  #26
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Not sure what the market is like in Norway but you could consider getting some custom Mains designed specifically for your room.
Old 25th December 2012
  #27
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We have ATC all around. Really, really great. 300s for mains and 150s for surrounds, center, and live room playback. I wouldn't describe them as bass heavy at all, but very accurate and easy to listen to. I can listen really loud for a long time without noticing too much fatigue. I have used a lot of other similar speakers, these are so much better IMO.

John
25rec.com
Old 30th December 2012
  #28
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Originally Posted by Schimpf View Post
We have ATC all around. Really, really great. 300s for mains and 150s for surrounds, center, and live room playback. I wouldn't describe them as bass heavy at all, but very accurate and easy to listen to. I can listen really loud for a long time without noticing too much fatigue. I have used a lot of other similar speakers, these are so much better IMO.

John
25rec.com
Thanks John!

Which ATC do you use ? I think the 300 is to big for my room ( I mean in size not sound). I think I could fit the 200 ´s.
I see that the atc 110 asl pro cost less then half the price of the 200´s ? I mean 12-14 000 $ more for 3 inch bigger bassmembran seems just ...well.. wrong.

Am I missing something ?
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Old 30th December 2012
  #29
There's no shortage of brand names to suggest. But given your room has been extensively tuned for it's specific acoustics. I think you might be putting the cart before the horse in deciding on soffit mounting before you know which speaker you're going to use, also deciding on how you soffit mount.

In the place I'm a partner at the whole room was planned around the speakers chosen. So the space was literally tailored to work best with those speakers. If a change in mains was deemed necessary, it wouldn't be a trivial thing, and it certainly would require a complete restructuring of the room. That restructuring would probably come after measurements were made of the speakers, in the room. In your case that might mean something different from the soffit mounting scheme you have in mind.

Another thing to perhaps consider is: Why soffit mounting anyway? I get the whole idea behind the bass trap soffit mount. ASC Acoustics uses something like it with their "Attack Wall" when they have the monitors sit on tube trap like stands. But whether or not that's actually necessary, in your case, is a matter of measurement and setting out some goals for the room sound, with the specific speaker of choice. Looking at your room, with those doors in the front, suggests to me that you might not be a candidate for soffit mounting. But nobody knows until it has been properly evaluated in context.

As far as speakers to choose, I'd look into floor standing ones. Lipinski and Tyler Acoustics come to mind. I've not yet heard (or don't remember hearing) the Tylers, but some folks I know rave about them. I have heard a few Lipinskis and they are exceptional in non-hype, uber detail.
Old 30th December 2012
  #30
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Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand View Post
There's no shortage of brand names to suggest. But given your room has been extensively tuned for it's specific acoustics. I think you might be putting the cart before the horse in deciding on soffit mounting before you know which speaker you're going to use, also deciding on how you soffit mount.

In the place I'm a partner at the whole room was planned around the speakers chosen. So the space was literally tailored to work best with those speakers. If a change in mains was deemed necessary, it wouldn't be a trivial thing, and it certainly would require a complete restructuring of the room. That restructuring would probably come after measurements were made of the speakers, in the room. In your case that might mean something different from the soffit mounting scheme you have in mind.

Another thing to perhaps consider is: Why soffit mounting anyway? I get the whole idea behind the bass trap soffit mount. ASC Acoustics uses something like it with their "Attack Wall" when they have the monitors sit on tube trap like stands. But whether or not that's actually necessary, in your case, is a matter of measurement and setting out some goals for the room sound, with the specific speaker of choice. Looking at your room, with those doors in the front, suggests to me that you might not be a candidate for soffit mounting. But nobody knows until it has been properly evaluated in context.

As far as speakers to choose, I'd look into floor standing ones. Lipinski and Tyler Acoustics come to mind. I've not yet heard (or don't remember hearing) the Tylers, but some folks I know rave about them. I have heard a few Lipinskis and they are exceptional in non-hype, uber detail.
Thanks man! I really appreciate your effort..

This room was designed for a studio with a different setup. I rebuild it around a nearfield /midfield setup as it is now and ended up with the Barefoot mm27. I have more than great results from measuring the Barefoots in this position so I´m very happy with the acoustics and the current setup. I dont have the opportunity to do any major construction work but building a good soffit solution in the corners should be "doable".

I have thought about standing monitors like you suggested. Right now the PMC MB2 XBD is at the top of my list because they have great support and are easy accessible in Norway. I have also listened to them in a fairly untreated room and they still seemed pretty flat and revealing. I cant imaging they would suffer from entering my room.They maybe a bit over my budget though.

I´m a bit worried about the bass buildup in the corners if I don´t make a proper soffit solution.Thats why i think of trying this approach. I could probably fix it with a Trinnov system but I´d like to get as close as possible before any correction is added. The Lipinsky system looks like a great solution too..
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