Vintage Neumann Mic shootout on acoustic

[Andreas G]

Hi, on request of a gearslut member and for those who are interested I did a little mic shootout on a acoustic guitar with some old highender.
The mics were U67, KM56 and U47. The guitar was 1964 Gibson J-50, the mic were around 12 inch away pointing to the 12th freet, the pre was a clean but soft sounding tubepre followed by the AD. The tracks are of course pretty raw and unfinished like in a real tracking situation, anyway what mic would you prefer?

Have fun... Andreas

[blaugruen7]

U67, then u47.
i have birthday this year. please give me both.

[ISedlacek]

I actually did not like any of them. Sound sharp, flat and tubey to my ears. A pair of Schoeps/Gefell/ etc. would sound like heaven comparing to this ...

[Kardoso]

The guitar is wonderful. I have a J-60 and it doesn't sound that fresh.
All three mics work fine.

[manomanoman]

The U47 was the only one that didn't hurt my ears, the others sounded harsh and piercing.

[T.RayBullard]

Ouch. None of those samples did it for me. Almost painful. Playing was good, but the mics ...well.I wouldnt use any of them based on those samples....

Pair of Gefells or Schoeps SDCs.....thats the ticket.

[Fruition2k]

Been working on a project using a 60's J45 mic'd with a KM54 and/or an M269.
I wasnt surprised that the KM54 worked great on a Jumbo Guild (maple) and a Taylor 314, but the J45 seemed more brittle and ended up using an M269 which perfect and very close to that "Julia" Beatles tone.

Also put my new racked Q8 MM310's through the same paces, not harsh at all and the Eq although not surgical its very usable..but I'm realizing why the 550a was
so widely accepted when they first came out.
BTW Ken Hirsch at Orphan Audio did an amazing job racking MM310's modules...
a bit pricey but worth the money now that the tracks are coming togther and how everything is sitting in the mix.

I'll try to post a few examples in the next few days...

[djui5]

Do you have pictures of the mic placement?

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by djui5

Do you have pictures of the mic placement?

No, I recorded myself so how could I take a picture? But hey, I did a carefully recreation of the mic placement, my assistant BigBunny tuk my place :-)

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

A pair of Schoeps/Gefell/ etc. would sound like heaven comparing to this ...

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

Pair of Gefells or Schoeps SDCs.....thats the ticket.

O.K. I'll try those Gefells or Schoeps, of course only a single mic with the same placement, otherwise it wouldn't be a fair comparison don't you think so?! ...and if doesn't sound like in heaven I'll send you BigBunny...

Andreas

[elambo]

I have a 47, km54 and 184, Schoeps cmc6/mk4 and a 50's Gibson-esque guitar. My favorite by a substantial margin has always been the KM54. It's been picky with mic placement though.

When setting up each mic did you place them in the exact same position or did you play around to get them to sound their best. I'd be surprised if the best placement for one mic would work for all three.

[True North]

Originally Posted by blaugruen7

U67, then u47.
i have birthday this year. please give me both.

don't you have a birthday every year

sorry couldn't resist.


What was that bunny smokin?

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

O.K. I'll try those Gefells or Schoeps, of course only a single mic with the same placement, otherwise it wouldn't be a fair comparison don't you think so?! ...and if doesn't sound like in heaven I'll send you BigBunny...

Andreas

I personally would never record guitar (and most of other instruments) with one mic, always in stereo. One mic always sounds a bit poor and flat to me ... (we have two ears). I have Horch RM2J and for few days I had even a pair of them here. It is a fabulous vocal mic - kind of mega U47. Of course, I was very eager to try them on instruments. But I somehow I did not like it too much on guitar, violin, flute, drum etc. The vocals sound amazing (the best vocal mic I ever heard). But for a beautiful, natural, deep rendering of instruments, a SD pair seems to be the way ... YMMV, of course ...

[David Spearritt]

Ivo speaks the truth. The best way to record acoustic guitar is at a decent distance (1m) with a stereo pair in a decent acoustic. I prefer Blumlein and ribbons. The Royer SF24 is my favourite, closely followed by a KM120 pair in Blumlein.

[rwhitney]

They're all nice. I like the clear highs of the KM56 (my choice for tracking with other instruments), U67 for the lows and forward mids, U47 for it's smooth overall balanced response.

[rwhitney]

Here's last night's Hippie Guitar Music recorded through a modern M149 and Daking preamp (no eq or comp-just 960 plate preset).

[Bimini]

Km54 is my favorite followed by a Km56. The 54 is a bit brighter but neither require EQ for me when the placement is on. The Shoeps is also sweet and similar, maybe more available. The recording seem a bit bright making me thing their are eq'd too much with 12k but maybe it's the guitar. I am using a 60's 000-18 and it is amazing sounding. I will post some recordings.

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by elambo

When setting up each mic did you place them in the exact same position or did you play around to get them to sound their best. I'd be surprised if the best placement for one mic would work for all three.

I didn't play around to get the best sound, I set up the U67 first, recorded it and used the same setup for the other mics as well. I even didn't monitor myself with cans. I just listened to what I've recorded and if the typical character of the particular mic was there. My goal was not to make the best possible recording of an acoustic, I just want to show the different characteristic of these mikes in a quick and easy way.

The KM54 is no doubt an amazing mic, with more work on the mic positioning and maybe with an additional engineer who would be responsible for the quality of the recording, the hole picture would look quite different. If done well the choice of mic is more a matter of taste than quality.

Andreas

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I personally would never record guitar (and most of other instruments) with one mic, always in stereo. One mic always sounds a bit poor and flat to me ... (we have two ears). I have Horch RM2J and for few days I had even a pair of them here. It is a fabulous vocal mic - kind of mega U47. Of course, I was very eager to try them on instruments. But I somehow I did not like it too much on guitar, violin, flute, drum etc. The vocals sound amazing (the best vocal mic I ever heard). But for a beautiful, natural, deep rendering of instruments, a SD pair seems to be the way ... YMMV, of course ...

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Ivo speaks the truth. The best way to record acoustic guitar is at a decent distance (1m) with a stereo pair in a decent acoustic. I prefer Blumlein and ribbons. The Royer SF24 is my favourite, closely followed by a KM120 pair in Blumlein.

The reason why I've done this shootout was the interrest of a gearslutz member in a SINGLE Neumann Vintage mic for recording acoustic guitar. I've recorded it in my very little own studio which has a flat frequency response but therefor sounds pretty dry. Others than that I of course agree with you, that a stereo- or multimic setup in a great room can sound amazing but that wasn't the subject of matter in this case.

Andreas

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by rwhitney

Here's last night's Hippie Guitar Music recorded through a modern M149 and Daking preamp (no eq or comp-just 960 plate preset).

Nice work Ross! I'm a bit jealous of you tracking-room.

Andreas

[Melodioso]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I personally would never record guitar (and most of other instruments) with one mic, always in stereo. One mic always sounds a bit poor and flat to me ... (we have two ears) ...

Just curious, what kind of mic configuration do you use when recording acoustic instruments in stereo? The example you posted earlier (DAV pre's) sounded good -

Personally, I use a pair of MG M930 in a XY setup, sounds great in near and mid position. But like I said, I'm curious what other people are doing.

(and sorry for hiajcking the thread...)

[Empty Planet]

Thanks for doing this.

Informative.



Cheers.

[rwhitney]

Originally Posted by Andreas G

Nice work Ross! I'm a bit jealous of you tracking-room.

Andreas

Your kind, but you wouldn't be jealous if you saw it! In fact, you can:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BkP50l-bmyc"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BkP50l-bmyc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="600" height="350"></embed></object>

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Melodioso

Just curious, what kind of mic configuration do you use when recording acoustic instruments in stereo? The example you posted earlier (DAV pre's) sounded good -

Well, it VERY MUCH depends on the type of recorded instruments ... Basically always a type of AB stereo ... I never liked much a kind of XY or ORTF stereo sound (for solo instruments)

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by rwhitney

Your kind, but you wouldn't be jealous if you saw it! In fact, you can:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BkP50l-bmyc"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BkP50l-bmyc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="600" height="350"></embed></object>

Hi Ross, assuming that there is a picture of your tracking room which I can't see (maybe my browser is to old to show this) and assuming it doesn't look like in a major studio, well then... you are even more are a genius.

Seriously, I think it is time to say Thank YOU, for all that shootouts, comparisons and test, you've done in a very accurate and disciplined manner! I remember the micing of a larrivrée guitar with two Neumann 147 mics with one month old strings and no eq, which blows me simply away!

Keep up your cool work!

Andreas

[rwhitney]

It's basically a souped-up classroom, though it does have a wood floor. Too bad you can't see it in all it's glory, but yeah, it's the same place I recorded that Larrivee. I appreciate your compliment very much.

[rwhitney]

BTW, I use M149s not 147s. I think there's a huge difference in sound between those mics. I would never recommend a 147 (from my experience).

[Beauarts]

To me it sounds like the mic is not in the right spot. I don't hear enough tone, more like the fingerboard area sound. I'd move it closer to the edge of the soundhole to get more of the soundboard. I believe micing at the 12th fret is used when you have a 2nd on the body or behind the bridge, not for a single mic.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for giving us samples where there's an actual musician playing. This should be a gearslutz requirment, no lame playing if you want us to critique your recording setup.

[dim light]

what application do I need to play the files? No luck here. The M149 SOUNDS NICE!

[djui5]

Originally Posted by rwhitney

BTW, I use M149s not 147s. I think there's a huge difference in sound between those mics. I would never recommend a 147 (from my experience).

[Andreas G]

Originally Posted by rwhitney

It's basically a souped-up classroom, though it does have a wood floor. Too bad you can't see it in all it's glory, but yeah, it's the same place I recorded that Larrivee. I appreciate your compliment very much.

I can see it now, cool... who is Tanuki?