Radar TDIF Signal Degraded...Please Help!!

[phelbin]

In my studio I have a Trident Series 80, a Radar 24, and PT HD. Usually we go through the Radar as A/D into PT. I noticed recently that the TDIF signal is degraded somewhat when going into PT. I did some A/B tests


1 - I recorded to the Radar, burned the files onto a CD and imported them into PT.

2 - I recorded through the Radar onto PT using AES/EBU

3 - I recorded through the Radar onto PT using TDIF


The TDIF signal is definitely degraded a bit. The low end isn't as crisp and the upper mid range is a bit dull. The other two methods are fine. Please help me figure out what to do.

I've heard that not all TDIF cables are created equal. Do you guys think that's true? Digidesign has a TDIF cable specifically for their gear, but it costs $150 for one cable. Is that worth it? Can you recommend another cable company? Mine are cheap cables I bought on ebbay...so I probably should upgrade them anyway.

Or should I send my Radar to IZ Corp and have them take out the TDIF card and put in an AES card?

Thanks for helping me.

[alessio]

How do you sync the digital machines?

[phelbin]

Word clock with a BNC cable. The Radar is the master and PT is the slave.

[Mike O]

Call IZs toll free number. Even if you are not the original owner they will be most happy to help you get to the bottom of the issue.

[phelbin]

They suggested Redco. But they only sell Mogami TDIF cable without the connectors...and there is no way I'm soldering a TDIF cable.

[TheSweetener]

Strange problem. I have used TDIF fr a long time and have never noticed something like this.

I remember that the people from Soundscape told me that ribbon cables are superior to "normal round" ones. Otherwise it's very critical to use long TDIF cables. How long are yours?

Have you tried using a different clock? Have you clocked PT via TDIF? Have you used PT as the master?

[Zwinter]

I have heard of similar things happening. I would try some different cables to make sure that is not the problem. My other idea is to check with Digidesign to see if there is some compressions scheme on the TDIF inputs. I doubt there is, but I have heard that some companies do this without advertising that it is being done.

[Ruudman]

It sound like emphasize is turned on for some reason..


ruudman

[phelbin]

Originally Posted by Ruudman

It sound like emphasize is turned on for some reason..

I know emphasis can be turned on in the Radar. I'll check that tonight. Does anyone know if that's possible in PT? Or would it be on the 192 itself?

[N.J.]

Hi Phelbin,
When you evaluate the TDIF is it during the transfer or playback from PT once transferred?

I would try a different cable. Maybe only change a bank of 8, and see if the cable makes any difference.

Experiment on your RADAR with the below settings.
TDIF SETTINGS:
IN SAMPLE POINT
SAMPLE RATE IN
EMPHASIS IN
EMPHASIS OUT
See pg 138 and 139 of RADAR manual for definitions.

If you can create files from the two transfers, there are software programs that will compare files. This would determine if the data in the two files are different.

If you'd like to send me short clips of each transfer, I'd be happy to evaluate them for you.

If you'd like an AES card, that is something you can install in the field with iZ telephone support.
AES is great because it supports single wire 96kHZ, and you don't have to worry about framing, etc.

[phelbin]

Thanks for your help NJ. What TDIF cable would you recommend? I'm having trouble finding a good one other than Digidesign's cable at $150 apiece. Or is that even a reasonable price?

[N.J.]

Hi Phil,
Radial (cable-tek), Redco. The pinout is on our website if you want to hand make them.

[heyman]

For all those companies out there that sell products with shoddy warranties and substandard tech support. Get a pen and paper, write down and take notes as to what NJ and the rest of IZCorp does for there customers..

Proud owner of a Radar 24 for 3 years.

thumbsup

[TheSweetener]

Originally Posted by phelbin

Thanks for your help NJ. What TDIF cable would you recommend? I'm having trouble finding a good one other than Digidesign's cable at $150 apiece. Or is that even a reasonable price?

Hi!
Like I said, try to contact Soundscape. In Europe they sell great TDIF cables much cheaper. It will be the same in the US.

[threm]

N.J.

I have a Radar 24 and quite some time ago I bought six good quality glass toslink cables planning to get the Adat card and a Hammerfall HDSP 9652 card that I still don`t have.

Is there any difference, soundwise, between the Adat card/toslink cables and TDIF/AES route when going 24-bit/48kHz?

The Lightpipe/TDIF thing was discussed on rec.audio a long time ago I remember.

Oh, right, it`s been discussed here too:

"lightpipe vs coaxial

a mastering engineer recently told me that recording via lightpipe is sonically inferior to recording via coaxial (spdif) or AES/EBU. he made me listen to files and i instantly agreed.

i did two recording tests with my own gear which confirmed this. the tests are waterproof. basically comparing the same signal via lightpipe spdif and coaxial spdif from an apogee rosetta into an rme multiface. clock was the rosetta via wordclock. short quality cables on both connections.

i find that especially the high end suffers - its less transparent on lightpipe. anyone here with more insight? i got loads of slagging off... but the results here are clear and blind tested by about 8 people."

"sorry... forgot to mention that a tek guy told me that its not the transmission via lightpipe which is the problem, it supposedly is the conversion onto optical. "
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...threadid=10882


On the other hand Bob Katz writes, when asked about the same thing;

"My answer is that the apparent sonic differences between interface technologies such as Toslink, glass, and copper are IRRELEVANT when doing transfers or when passing signal from one processor to another. You can forget about that question with COMPLETE CONFIDENCE--since all of the technologies are capable of passing perfectly good data, within their specified cable lengths. Remember: the clock is not transferred along with the data. Only the data is transferred to the processor's circuits.

The apparent sonic differences between interface technologies come into play in only ONE place... and that is at the input to the converters (A/D and D/A)."
http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule...#anchor6490002

[Ruudman]

Originally Posted by phelbin

I know emphasis can be turned on in the Radar. I'll check that tonight. Does anyone know if that's possible in PT? Or would it be on the 192 itself?

I think it would be the Radar. It may have turned emphasis on automaticly by sensing an uncorrect signal, or a mismatched one.


ruudman

[phelbin]

I'm going to check out the emphasis as soon as I can. I also ordered one good ribbon TDIF cable from soundscape. I'll know more within a week or so.

Every time I talk to IZ they say that AES is superior to TDIF. Does anyone else agree or disagree?

[indie]

Originally Posted by heyman

For all those companies out there that sell products with shoddy warranties and substandard tech support. Get a pen and paper, write down and take notes as to what NJ and the rest of IZCorp does for there customers..

Proud owner of a Radar 24 for 3 years.

thumbsup

thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

[threm]

Originally Posted by phelbin

Every time I talk to IZ they say that AES is superior to TDIF. Does anyone else agree or disagree?

Superior in what way?

[chrisredco]

We can make you a TDIF cable of any length using Mogami TDIF cable, which is a very specific type of twisted pair cable as you already know. Be aware that TDIF has an "approved" length of 15', but we have made many TDIF cables using this Mogami cable much longer with siccess.

It is not a cheap cable to make, but we will try and be reasonable as much as possible. Let me know if we can help you out, or what you find is the result with the ribbon cable you got.

Thanks,
Chris Stubbs
Redco Audio

[N.J.]

Originally Posted by threm

N.J.
Is there any difference, soundwise, between the Adat card/toslink cables and TDIF/AES route when going 24-bit/48kHz?

If you are listening during the transfer, one format may be stronger than the other in terms of clocking, jitter, etc.
If you are playing back audio after the transfer from the same platform, I don't think there would be, but I really haven't done any critical listening tests.

Originally Posted by phelbin

Every time I talk to IZ they say that AES is superior to TDIF. Does anyone else agree or disagree?

Originally Posted by threm

Superior in what way?

If you were talking to me, I wasn't referring to sound quality. I prefer AES because of:
1. Supports single wire at up to 96kHz (ie full 24 track count)
2. No need to worry about framing, etc.
3. In my experience, had less hassles setting up.
4. More common than TDIF for high end gear.

YMMV

[threm]

Thanks N.J.!

My budget doesn`t allow the AES route. I`ll stick with the ADAT card into a RME Digiface breakout box and into a PC for the 24ch I/O from the Radar.

[phelbin]

Originally Posted by chrisredco

It is not a cheap cable to make, but we will try and be reasonable as much as possible. Let me know if we can help you out, or what you find is the result with the ribbon cable you got.

I already ordered a ribbon cable from Soundscape for $50 including shipping. But just for information, what would you charge to make me a 2' cable? I might have you make me one if the ribbon doesn't solve my problem.

Originally Posted by N.J.

I prefer AES because of:
1. Supports single wire at up to 96kHz (ie full 24 track count)
2. No need to worry about framing, etc.

Does TDIF not support 96KHz. Mine seems to. Although I have noticed that I can record a full 24 tracks at 96 using the Radar for A/D. But I can only do 44.1/48 when mixing back through the Radar for D/A. Why is that?

What is framing?

[phelbin]

Problem solved!!

I bought a ribbon TDIF cable from Soundscape and plugged it in tonight. It made a huge difference! I was planning to do some elaborate A/B tests, but after the first two tests, the difference was so noticeable that I don't feel the need to do any more testing.

So, I can definitely say that all TDIF cables are not created equal. I'm in much better shape now!

[heyman]

Great..!! Best of luck...