Modern alternatives to the Sony R100

[Killahurts]

If there was a replacement for the DMXR-100, I would have it. Unfortunately the digital console world has dried up, with just a few sub-par (IMO) models out there that are new..

When my Sony died two years ago, I got an SSL Alphalink so I could keep my MADI system intact, got some controllers, and went completely "in the box" (first time ever for me). A few months into that, I realized that my new workflow was inefficient and cumbersome, no fun. Tracking was confusing and sucked. And I had to fight to keep my mixes from sounding congested. The SSL Matrix was the perfect solution- it had everything I was missing from the Sony, like a real center section, talkback, multiple source inputs and monitor outs controls, etc., plus it makes mixing a joy again because it's clear and open sounding, even with dense productions. But it doesn't have the stuff I don't need or want to pay for, like EQ and preamps.

It shouldn't be out of your price range, if you consider that you want to replace a console that costed $20,000, what, 11 years ago?

I do miss the Sony sometimes, though. It was that dedicated channel section that made it so easy and fast to work on.. and it had better summing than most DAWs.

[Nick Morris]

I too saw the end coming and decided to sell mine. I could not get comfortable mixing in DAW so I had to find a replacement. For me, I had to have that center channel feel with the instant recall of all settings of titles and sound at least as good as the sony otherwise ITB was just going to have to work because all the digital consoles out didn't do it for me.

I ended up just going analog. Used an SSL for a while and now a Euphonix. Finally I have the recall and automation features and center section I missed from the Sony with a nice upgrade in sound too for less than I paid for the Sony when it came out.

Check out a digitally controlled analog mixer like a CS3000. The Harrison series 10b and series 12 too.

[Omega Arts]

It will be a sad day when my R100 starts acting weird.
It has been and still is a great board.
Larry

[chripek]

I can't deny it's been a workhorse for me - and a great workhorse at that! The only downside is that I've been stuck into this workflow of digital inline, which is nice but obviously there isn't much in terms of newer high end that's in the cards for me.

I had a good look at the SSL Matrix, but like Killahertz said I too just wish it had pres and EQ strips. If it did that would be its obvious replacement - and a kickass one at that! But thanks for the tips guys, I'll definitely take a look at the CS3000 and Harrsion's range.

We have an Oxford R3 here on its last legs too, so sad to see such great consoles fighting to the end!

[Mitch ears]

Hey, did you have a look at the newest live digital mixing boards?
They are intended to be used in live, but you can manage to use them in a studio set-up.
In this area, soundcraft with their Vi digital series seems good.
And there is Midas who does a Pro R1 for around 10K.
There is also Digico who does a small console (SD7 I believe) for 20K that sound good and has multiband comps on each channel...

Regards

[Killahurts]

Hey Mitch Ears, good call on the Midas. I found this Pro2 console to be a very good match for the OP to replace a DMX. It's around what a Matrix costs, but it apparently has everything. They also have the Pro2C, which is essentially the same console but with a smaller controller/footprint, and is a few thousand less.

Nice.

Midas Consoles | PRO2

[AlexK]

Don't know about the pres on the Digico or the Soundcraft, but the Midas just doesn't sound as good as the Sony. It sounds good, but the R100 is a really great sounding board!

Just a shame that they're all falling over now. Sony should've never dropped out of the pro audio arena...

[Mitch ears]

As allways, the best way of knowing how the console sounds is to test it.
As these consoles are well spread in the live industry, you should easily find a way of renting each one for a test at your place...

An idea about the preamps:
Soundcraft and Studer belong to the same group, and I heard they had some design in common.
Is it the preamps that share the same design???
And if so, is it also on the Vi series ???

If it was the same preamps, you would get a clean and detailed preamp
that would be very cool.

But then, you have the eq (Midas has nice ones), the compressors,
and the ease of use...

Regards

[chripek]

Originally Posted by AlexK

Don't know about the pres on the Digico or the Soundcraft, but the Midas just doesn't sound as good as the Sony. It sounds good, but the R100 is a really great sounding board!

Just a shame that they're all falling over now. Sony should've never dropped out of the pro audio arena...

Amen.

I'd rather stay away from Live desks IMHO, especially for studio recording purposes - moreover because of the workflow and the sheer look I'd get from visitors seeing a digital Midas in the control room! I could live with a Studer though, just as the R100 was often a common sight in outside broadcasting vehicles for radio stations. My main recording material is classical music anyway.

But now I'm thinking, because I do so much location recording anyway and would need external rackmounted preamps, perhaps the SSL Matrix would do nicely. I'm just extremely concerned about how futureproof it is, considering the price and the fact that it's primarily reliant on a DAW to operate. I'm not a big fan of working 'in the box', a representative from Harman once called me 'yet another disappointed analog fan' - but I did love that nice bit of digital 'help' the R100 provided... not to mention those great EQs!

Why did you leave pro audio Sony, WHY!? And all they've left behind are the world's worst on-camera microphones!

[Jonathan@FPA]

Originally Posted by chripek

Amen.

I'd rather stay away from Live desks IMHO, especially for studio recording purposes - moreover because of the workflow and the sheer look I'd get from visitors seeing a digital Midas in the control room! I could live with a Studer though, just as the R100 was often a common sight in outside broadcasting vehicles for radio stations. My main recording material is classical music anyway.

But now I'm thinking, because I do so much location recording anyway and would need external rackmounted preamps, perhaps the SSL Matrix would do nicely. I'm just extremely concerned about how futureproof it is, considering the price and the fact that it's primarily reliant on a DAW to operate. I'm not a big fan of working 'in the box', a representative from Harman once called me 'yet another disappointed analog fan' - but I did love that nice bit of digital 'help' the R100 provided... not to mention those great EQs!

Why did you leave pro audio Sony, WHY!? And all they've left behind are the world's worst on-camera microphones!

Not to mention the rather overpriced 800G [over priced in comparison to a good used or refurbed C-37A and well maybe just over priced]... Sony left a lot of good design work and idea's on the table and now in the trash bin. Shame about the studios as well...

[davidki]

I just happen to be looking for some info on the Sony DMXr 100 consoles and found this thread and Hope you don't mind me barging in.

I have a R-100 and have for close to 12 years (or more). I use to get a very open clean sound when tracking with the board... but over the last 6 months the tracking I am doing seems to have a real edgy sound/feel. I am using all the same mics, and everyting seems to be locking up to my external clock but the tracks just sound edgy and when I start to mix and add tracks in to the mix it seems to be getting even more edgy almost to the point that it may even be classified as a distorted foggy sound.. It's feels like my ears are burning every time I leave the studio and I do not mix loud! I've asked around but not many folks have the board anymore, especially here in Nashville.

I am in the Nashville area... I've placed a few calls to see if anyone around has dealt with them.. but since I found this thread I figured I'd see if anyone on here has had a similar experiance.

My set up is that I have a Lucid clock that is providing sync to my board and to my HD24. Under my Sync page, I am seeing everything lock up.

I don't know how to explain it any better but perhaps I can call one of you and pick your brains on what to look for...

I look forward to hearing from you folks.

[Nick Morris]

Have you done extensive trouble shooting? Could be many things. Monitors, cabling, etc.

The last thing I would guess would be the console itself.

[Omega Arts]

I'm reluctant to say this but mine is still working flawlessly so I haven't experienced any thing unusual.
For all you R100 users I have 4 ADAT cards and Two Tascam cards I would sell.
I went to MADI right after buying this console so no need for them. I keep two Tascam cards in case I need to transfer anything from DA 88's.
I did have a problem with the MADI card and Mergening repaired it and no problems since.
Are you sure your monitors aren't getting loose?
Maybe Micheal Wagner will reply. He's in Nashville and has a lot of time on these boards.

Larry

[thenoodle]

So what's the story with the Sony boards? They actually die? After only 12-15 years of service?

What a croc.

I was looking at the r100 about 8 years ago and started wondering what happens when electronics of this sort develop problems. I hunched that they simply die. Is that really what happens?

If so, shame on Sony for bringing it out. Or for abandoning it.

I've certainly heard of analog consoles that have things go out here and there over the years, but I'm used to consoles that last 20-30 years in the long run.

Sort of makes me determined to never invest in a digital console... although I have considered the ssl Nucleus as a controller.

While I'd be pretty angry for a Nucleus to blitz out completely (at $5000) after ten years, I'd REALLY be hot about a $20,000 console going bad after that length of time.

Glad I didn't buy the r100.

[Nick Morris]

I would bet most are still being used for work and not dead.

Digital gear definitely does have an expiration though, computers, converters, etc.

Twelve years ago, nothing in that price range could come close to it. Right now, there are a couple of options thankfully.

I would still love to work on one again. Love that board.

[davidki]

Evening Nick, Where do I start.. Yep, I've looked at everything over and over again, I started to think it was a clock issue but from what I have done is changed from the external to the internal clock and everything seems to lock. I have a friend who is going to bring another pr of 824's over and I'm going to check them out. If I have time in the morning I want to run some RTA curves on everything and see what is happening... if that shows any issues...

I have a Pr of NS10's I will check out as well as a Pr of NS40's and see if it shows up.


It just seems like over the last year things have just started to sound a bit on the edgy side...

One more question.. I have always left the Master fader with the Dither Off I use Alesis HD24's running lightpipe at 44.1 and 24 bit. I wonder if I should set the master fader to 24 bit if that would help at all. I have always been told that not to bother... but then again, maybe I should try it...

Dave

[davidki]

Hi Larry, thanks for the note.. I know Michael and I'll have to give him a call, but he is always very busy ... and he has sold his Sony Boards a few years back.. I've spoken with him and even visited him at his studio before the one he has now... He is the ultimate engineer for sure!

[Radardoug]

The problem with you guys is you beleive the computer industry hype and Microsoft who want you to buy a new computer every 6 months. I look after two forty year old Neves, and if I can keep them working, a 12 year old console should be a breeze. Also, stuff built in the last twenty years is more reliable than stuff built 40 years ago.
The most common modern failure? Switchmode power supplies. The caps fail, and the supply stops. Change thoes caps and you are away again.
Come on guys, think about looking after your babies a bit harder. And never beleive Microsoft!

[Nick Morris]

Good point, but they want a ton to work on these boards and I only know how to fix the simple analog boards LOL!

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

When I first saw the 100 in a Sony booth in Nashville (with Lawrence Juber doing a live recording...) I saw a couple of things i didn't like along with all of the things that I did like, and I eagerly anticipated the second generation, which never came to pass. I'm surprised, because it was a very popular board.

The biggest problem with an old digital board that does not apply to an analog board is the software. I don't know if the Sony software is still supported or if it was perfect and never needed addressed, but the software for the Midas XL4 could have used an update or two. Owners of the Tascam TDM4000 begged for updates or barring that, for Tascam to release the code so someone else could update it... no luck.

But I agree, the hardware is likely repairable... well, then there are custom eproms... but much of the hardware is likely repairable.

[cinealta]

Why exactly did Sony get out of the Pro Audio business? Does anyone know? Was it not profitable for them?

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by cinealta

Why exactly did Sony get out of the Pro Audio business? Does anyone know? Was it not profitable for them?

I don't know, but I suspect that it is because the 'pro' went out of pro audio.

[Killahurts]

Originally Posted by cinealta

Why exactly did Sony get out of the Pro Audio business? Does anyone know? Was it not profitable for them?

Remember we're talking Sony here, they do crazy shit at that company. Even if it was extremely profitable for them, they might inexplicably abandon it anyway. I know the DMX was at least somewhat profitable for them, they sold over 2,000 of them.

I heard from somewhere a few years back that Sony gave up on production on the DMX because there were new laws (RoHS directive) concerning lead content in electronics solder, and a redesign would have been prohibitively expensive for them.

[davidki]

I heard exactly the same thing about the Solder and they would have to do a complete redesign which they at that time sold everything off and bailed... The board is great and so easy to use.. I'm just dealing with a few things with mine and the problem is finding folks to work on it... I have one and possibley 2 faders that will need replacing in the not to far distant future. I'd love to keep this thing running until I'm tired of the business... and then sell it all!

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by davidki

I heard exactly the same thing about the Solder....

So there's no solder in computers, TVs, Playstations, etc???? There must have been another reason.

[Killahurts]

I don't know.. the RoHS directive is not just about lead, but 5 other hazardous substances, and the exact % amounts of each that are acceptable- or not. It's a pretty serious set of laws, with severe penalties for non-compliance, apparently.

Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That 25 fader Tascam controller thing that was out a few years ago (US 2400?) suffered the same fate, IIRC.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

So there's no solder in computers, TVs, Playstations, etc???? There must have been another reason.

Some things are easier to redesign than others, or might not be affected as much, or maybe the profit in tv sales makes the redesign costs more worthwhile...

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Radardoug

The problem with you guys is you beleive the computer industry hype and Microsoft who want you to buy a new computer every 6 months. I look after two forty year old Neves, and if I can keep them working, a 12 year old console should be a breeze. Also, stuff built in the last twenty years is more reliable than stuff built 40 years ago.
The most common modern failure? Switchmode power supplies. The caps fail, and the supply stops. Change thoes caps and you are away again.
Come on guys, think about looking after your babies a bit harder. And never beleive Microsoft!

Maintaining an analogue console and a "vintage digital" console are completely different things. Once the specialist tech support goes, or parts become unavailable, you're a bit stuck. Any half competent monkey with a soldering iron can change a cap or a pot in a vintage console - personally this monkey assembled and prepped every switch in Benny from abba's neve (or was it bjorn? Can't remember...anyway, it used to be at battery in London) so it can't be that hard!

[sessionatstudiom]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Maintaining an analogue console and a "vintage digital" console are completely different things. Once the specialist tech support goes, or parts become unavailable, you're a bit stuck. Any half competent monkey with a soldering iron can change a cap or a pot in a vintage console - personally this monkey assembled and prepped every switch in Benny from abba's neve (or was it bjorn? Can't remember...anyway, it used to be at battery in London) so it can't be that hard!

With the digital consoles they run on DSP Chips etc... DSP chips die, CPUs die. Finding replacement DSP Chips can be very hard. Finding CPUs that match the digital consoles can be hard.

With a vintage analog console you can still find most of the parts for them or viable replacement parts.

I have a Euphonix System 5 with the old core. Euphonix/Avid still have a few replacement DSP Cards but they will not last forever. I have a couple extras laying around for longevity. But one day it will die and not be fixable or usable. That is the way of digital. You are buying planned extinction.

I am not saying digital is bad. But one day that digital device is obsolete and not fixable.

Mike