Neumann U67 or U87, whats the dif?

[Jazzy Alz]

I've recently purchased a Brauner VM1 KHE and I'm looking for another mic.

I want to get a U67 or U87. Which is more versatile?

I'd like to hear info from you guys on the difference in sound.

If you've used them even better

[kats]

The two main differences are that the U67 has a tube amplifier with a separate power supply. It also has a different frequency response and is less bright than a U87 and less open sounding. This pronounces the low mid intimacy sound that is characteristic of the k67/87 capsule. The design is less prone to harshness associated with a U87 when you reach headroom limits of the electronics.

The U67 has a particular sound but takes EQ well if you need to add some more top end to it. Some people mod a U67 to be more open sounding and some people mod the U87 to overcome the shortcomings of it's electronics and the headroom issues.

In my view, since you have the KHE I would go for a stock U67. It's an important flavor if your building a good mic locker. If I didn't have the KHE I would tube mod a U87 (which I have actually) as it's more versatile than a U67 in that form.

[popmann]

I've used them both. I disagree about the high end. The U67s I've used have a gorgeous high end. Some moded for more...some natural but linear. The U87s have a much more "rocky" high end. THere's a big bump, say 9-10k ish?, then there's a cut off above that--an apparent LPF. The U87AI model is worse on both the bump AND the cutoff, IMO.

A U67 is just gorgeous. Korby's recreation is nice, too--albeit prettier...tamer.

It's dynamics are smooth, and tends to "give a little more" when you belt it...there's always plenty of "air", while never too much or shrill.

A 70s U87 isn't wholely different...just not as good. An acceptable compromise. If it doesn't sound "ok" through a U87, there's something wrong.

Not a fan of the U87AI. It's a decent mic that brings far too much $$ because people don't know the difference. You could buy a whole closet of AT mics for the price...and do just as well. IMO.

Anyway--with a vocal 67 track I rarely add highs...it sounds naturally open. With an 87 I'm always adding highs, and sculpting the upper midrange because I added the highs, as it sounds more closed off up top--yet brighter before the LPF.

Then again...I may be just deaf.

[Jazzy Alz]

Thanks. It's a difficult choice.

[Sounds Great]

Budget is a factor as a U67 will cost you a lot more. I want one!

[kats]

Originally Posted by popmann

I've used them both. I disagree about the high end. The U67s I've used have a gorgeous high end. Some moded for more...some natural but linear. The U87s have a much more "rocky" high end. THere's a big bump, say 9-10k ish?, then there's a cut off above that--an apparent LPF. The U87AI model is worse on both the bump AND the cutoff, IMO.

A U67 is just gorgeous. Korby's recreation is nice, too--albeit prettier...tamer.

It's dynamics are smooth, and tends to "give a little more" when you belt it...there's always plenty of "air", while never too much or shrill.

A 70s U87 isn't wholely different...just not as good. An acceptable compromise. If it doesn't sound "ok" through a U87, there's something wrong.


Anyway--with a vocal 67 track I rarely add highs...it sounds naturally open. With an 87 I'm always adding highs, and sculpting the upper midrange because I added the highs, as it sounds more closed off up top--yet brighter before the LPF.

Then again...I may be just deaf.

I find it hard to believe the U67 you used wasn't modded. I've used alot of them alot, and "open" or "gorgeous top end" never comes to my mind unless the source has problem HFs that a U67 can hide.

As far as U87/U87ai the only difference that has any sonic relevance is the U87ai has a higher output (less s/n). The problem there is that the U87ai has less headroom and when the electronics get pushed too hard, they crap out and sound very hard. Before that point, U87's and ai's pretty much sound identical.

Not a fan of the U87AI. It's a decent mic that brings far too much $$ because people don't know the difference. You could buy a whole closet of AT mics for the price...and do just as well. IMO.

Funny, I think the opposite. I think it's one of the best bargains going. A world class capsule for under 2k. I'm not trying to argumentative, and I believe you in what you hear. I just think there might have been something else going on to give you that impression.

[Jazzy Alz]

Originally Posted by kats

I find it hard to believe the U67 you used wasn't modded. I've used alot of them alot, and "open" or "gorgeous top end" never comes to my mind unless the source has problem HFs that a U67 can hide.

As far as U87/U87ai the only difference that has any sonic relevance is the U87ai has a higher output (less s/n). The problem there is that the U87ai has less headroom and when the electronics get pushed too hard, they crap out and sound very hard. Before that point, U87's and ai's pretty much sound identical.



Funny, I think the opposite. I think it's one of the best bargains going. A world class capsule for under 2k. I'm not trying to argumentative, and I believe you in what you hear. I just think there might have been something else going on to give you that impression.

I've tested the U87ai and personally not worth spending money on IMO.

[jumpnyc]

what do you want to use it for? The U67 excels on vox and is fantastic in most applications - I love mine. I have a pair of vintage U87's - matched by Korby - they are very nice but the U67 is really another league. I believe that tube mics with an external power supply are really a smarter design and produce a much nicer audio picture than phantom powered alternatives, but I can use the U87's for a lot of things and always have something that works in some way. Basically My stereo pair of U87's = 1 U67 in price.

[kats]

I've tested the U87ai and personally not worth spending money on IMO

You'll probably be dissapointed with a U87 then.

I believe that tube mics with an external power supply are really a smarter design and produce a much nicer audio picture than phantom powered alternatives

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by kats

You'll probably be dissapointed with a U87 then.

JMHO...

I think the U87ai is a great mic, and like old 87s, there are some that sound better than others. Totally up to the capsules specific timbre whether they are "harsh" or not. Same capsule and circuit path as the original. Takes EQ wonderfully, and works on almost anything. Send it to Klaus and it just gets better. Comparing a U87ai to an AT 4047, which I had and did....says a lot about the AT. The AT sounds really good. But not in the same league of detail and transient response. You get what you pay for, pretty much, still. I would not be without one.

The U67 is hardly an "open sounding" mic....warm yes, open no....I've sung through dozens over the years...starting in the ....gulp...Sixties.. they are rich and full sounding but hardly open.

TH

[Igotsoul4u]

The u67 is one of the greatest mics ever imo. The top end is so so silky smooth and I find that the bass response is just right. not too woofy but not too thin. I love it. The u87 is a mic that will always do the trick but does not have a special sound. It will not make anything sound bad but it will never blow your mind. Its probably the safest mic you could buy and it will pretty much work on anything. I have a friend who unknowingly had the 87 backwards on his guitar and still got a very usuable sound. Its also a little bit easier to maintain then a u67. I also thiink its important to note that there are definetly bad u67's so make sure you listen to it first.

[Sarusan]

Versatility will depend on your applications. I would never put a 67 in front of a loud guitar amp but I would with an 87. You can't go wrong with either although a good 67 seems to be much sweeter in most applications. For my taste, I'm happy with a good one on just about anything. It will be compliment the KHE very well too.

Be careful to get one that is unmodified. Resoration is fine but all of the modded ones that I've heard- no matter who did it- were far too bright, didn't have the depth that they should and did not take eq as well.

Steven

[DigitMus]

Y'know it's funny... I think just about any mic would be a good 'complement' to a KHE, because no other mic sounds like it. I've had mine for over 4 years now, and I have to make myself "forget" that I own it, because otherwise I'll want to use it on just about everything.

Seriously, I pretend it doesn't exist until I get a song/performer in the studio that is so good that it makes me remember. It might sound like elitism, but I only break it out for things that 'deserve' it. Either that, or I'm just angry that I don't own a dozen of 'em.

Scott

[beats workin']

i'll second the opinion that an older 87 is a great mic. if you can't get a good sounding track with that, you need to re-examine your setup. the 67, on the other hand, is a completely different kind of party. i've never had a mic that consistenly blew me away like the 67. when i first got one, i used it on just about everything (hilarious example of going overboard), then realized that, hey, it's not perfect for EVERY kind of track! sometimes you want the detail of a sdc on percussion or an acoustic guitar, etc etc.
also, i was prepared to be always adding a bit of top end shelf, but in actual use, i usually don't find it necessary. i've been surprised at the beauty of the top-end. i do record digitally so that may explain it. one of the characteristics of the 67 that i find so useful is that the frequencies from low to high are fully integrated. you don't "notice" the top end or a bump anywhere. it's all just one unified sound. i have some other high-end tube mics that sound great, but you can hear where the top end is kind of separated from the rest of the sound.
david

[popmann]

also, i was prepared to be always adding a bit of top end shelf, but in actual use, i usually don't find it necessary. i've been surprised at the beauty of the top-end.

And THAT...is what I'm saying. It's open up top. Not "bright". As in "brighter than source"....or "adding brightness".

With most mics, including the immediately brighter U87, I end up boosting the high end--trying to ease the sound of the LPF up there. The U67 isn't "bright"...but, it isn't dark, either. It's LPF wasn't detectable like a U87 (of any vintage).

So, by "open"...I mean that it linearly keeps on going...where the U87 has a brightness bump, then a sharp LPF up higher.

In general, I find tube mics as a rule tend to do better at the "open but not bright" thing.

[kevinc]

Originally Posted by DigitMus

Seriously, I pretend it doesn't exist until I get a song/performer in the studio that is so good that it makes me remember. It might sound like elitism, but I only break it out for things that 'deserve' it. Scott

That`s funny.

Kinda like a good bottle of wine you wouldn`t want to waste on people who wouldn`t appreciate it.

[Doublehelix]

It is popular to slag the U87ai around here... take it for what it's worth. I personally like the U87ai.

Some popular mic "experts" that do mods slag the U87ai, and all of a sudden, they suck.

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by popmann

So, by "open"...I mean that it linearly keeps on going...where the U87 has a brightness bump, then a sharp LPF up higher.

In fact the 67 has a litle circuit that actually bandwidth limits the mic, intentionally rolling off the high end. I think you'll find that a stock 67 does not go up in frequency linearly. The fact that it doesn't has a lot to do with it's opulent midrange.

-R

[Reag1502]

Out of the two, which one sounds best for distant miking guitar cabinets for distored stuff, and which one sounds best for acoustic guitars and male vocals? Thanks

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by Doublehelix

It is popular to slag the U87ai around here... take it for what it's worth. I personally like the U87ai.

Some popular mic "experts" that do mods slag the U87ai, and all of a sudden, they suck.

I take it from whom I consider one of the world's best experts on the 87s, Klaus, and he sees no difference between the new and old ones save for the capsule differences that have always occurred as a natural part of the manufacturing process. He has worked on 87s of all vintages on a weekly basis for many years. He has stated that since the Sixties all of them have varied and still do, and that there is no absolute reason why an old would sound any better than a new one in that they use the same capsule and signal path. If a rumor gets started on the net, it becomes "truth" after awhile....


TH

[popmann]

Well...it's possible they were both modded. But, isn't that LPF for German broadcast like 17khz? I'm certainly not talking about above that...

This is the bummer about a U67 at this point, though, no? They've all led different lives. Been repaired by different techs. Spit on by different people. I've never once seen one for sale that offered that it was "stock".

It'd be interesting if the one wasn't stock.

[popmann]

If a rumor gets started on the net, it becomes "truth" after awhile....

Well, I don't know where it 'started, but there's no "rumour" for me. I've worked with a good number of "AI" U87s and "I" 87s...and frankly: they don't sound the same.

[thejook]

Originally Posted by beats workin'

when i first got one, i used it on just about everything (hilarious example of going overboard), then realized that, hey, it's not perfect for EVERY kind of track! sometimes you want the detail of a sdc on percussion or an acoustic guitar, etc etc. david

Ha! I did the same thing when I rented a *beautifully* modded U67 to track a record, and I pretty much tracked the entire record through that thing.

One of my friends was hearing this project for the first time and he commented on one tune that I never really succeded in fitting all the elements in the mix just right, "hey man, every track has the same *exact* attack...did you track all that with the same mic or something?"

That said, I don't know a better mic for the 'drummer's ear' room mic behind the drummer.

[kats]

Well, I don't know where it 'started, but there's no "rumour" for me. I've worked with a good number of "AI" U87s and "I" 87s...and frankly: they don't sound the same

Well there should be some difference. Firstly, U87's are older and probably have changed in sound over the years. And secondly since U87's don't run as hot as an AI you might be driving your pre a little harder, so that'll change the sound somewhat. I think the scourge on the AI comes from how we work nowadays. The mics react quite differently when pressed to their limits and IMO the AI suffers more in this regard. Personally I preffer the AI simply because they're new and I don't use them stock. For the cost of $3500 for a modded U87, I don't think there's much that come come close to it for what it does or costs.

Maybe if I have time this week or next, I'll post some shootouts between the mics in question.

[popmann]

Maybe if I have time this week or next, I'll post some shootouts between the mics in question.

I'll keep an eye out. Make sure to note what's stock and what's not.

[Andreas G]

I'm a big U67 fan, for me it's the best mic ever. (unbutchered of course)
For any reason the big run on U67 has begun, they are harder and harder to find.

Andreas

[Meriphew]

I'm still waiting for Neumann to vindicate themselves and re-release (for a 2nd time) the U67. I would LOVE to see that.

[DAWgEAR]

Slightly OT: Any news/developments regarding Soundelux's E-67? It's been a year or two since it was hinted at, no?

[keano]

How about the TLM67. It is similar no. Not exact similar? specs show it to have just nice open top unlike the Mojave 200 which is much more drastic guessing like modded ones

[doorknocker]

The difference between a U67 and a U87 is about 5k and I'm not talking frequencies.

Sonically the difference to me is 'Crosby, Stills and Nash' from 1969 vs. 'CSN' from 1977. (Disclaimer: I don't know to what extend U67s/87s were really used on these sessions but while I like both records, the 1969 one is sonically so much more pleasing to my ears).

Personally - unless I would win the lottery - I probably wouldn't go for either. The U67 is simply too expensive now and prices will only go up while there are plenty of alternatives to the U87 that arguably are as good or better. Or make that 'more useful in today's typical recording enviroment'. To be honest, I would take a SM7 over a U87 any day, especially when it comes to vocals.