How many of you OTB guys are printing your final mixes to a DSD deck ?

[sage691]

Originally Posted by jinksdingo

I have a MR 1000 for when I hire a studio to mixdown a project. To me recording with it there is more detail and so too to mixdown to which i have compared to a DVD recorder when the MR was first released.

So you bring it to the studio and connect the master bus outs of the console (or hybrid chain) to it to capture final mixes ?

And what about mastering from that point ? Can you back up the mixes onto something (DVD, etc.) without having to bring the actual unit to the ME ?

And last, do you print @ 5.6 or 2.8 ?

[string6theory]

Originally Posted by sage691

Hey string6theory,

Thanks for all of your posts man -- really helpful to me !

Right now I'm looking at the MR2000S units and I have a question: some are grey and others are black -- is there any difference between the two ?

Seems like the black ones are a bit more expensive for some reason.

Coolness, glad to help!

Yes, I believe about 3-4 months ago, only the black-face MR2000S-BK have been shown on the Korg site. From what I can tell, beyond the color, I think the only difference is that they went from an 80GB to a 160GB hard drive.

Extra drive space is always welcome, but I haven't had an issue with 80GB getting full too quickly. It's also a simple process to copy everything to your own external drive via the USB connection, then free up the internal drive.

The MSRP of $1799 has been the same between both "S" and "S-BK" units.

As the BK's are the newer version, it might be more difficult to find an open box (new) at a bigger discount, but check out eBay and a more reputable online dealer (also, with "make an offer" option). Or, perhaps you can get the "S" version at a deeper discount now.

If you have a trusted local pro audio store near you, you might check with them and see if they can source this at a discount. You should be able to negotiate ~ $1450 brand new (20% off MSRP). I always like dealing with a local store if it's feasible and manufacturers seem more receptive to direct bus-to-bus orders. The local store may also be more willing to reduce their margin if you're a repeat customer.

Good Luck!

[jinksdingo]

Originally Posted by string6theory

The MR2000S units are rack size, have dedicated XLR line inputs (no built-in preamps like the MR1000 field unit), plus input level calibration features with finer controls, much better metering, improved headphone output, multi-unit link and sync options, etc.

The units connect via spdif cables and you set master/slave in each of the unit's menus. Then the master unit controls the transport functions of the slave unit; play, pause, record, etc. I have 2 MR units synced and it works great.

Just wondering if sync'd with s/pdif doesn't that entail the slave unit using up its input. And that you can record one side of each unit?

Or is is more like mixing the outs of one with new takes.
Yeah, I am from the days of tape recording.

[jinksdingo]

Originally Posted by sage691

So you bring it to the studio and connect the master bus outs of the console (or hybrid chain) to it to capture final mixes ?

And what about mastering from that point ? Can you back up the mixes onto something (DVD, etc.) without having to bring the actual unit to the ME ?

And last, do you print @ 5.6 or 2.8 ?

I have some varied uses. Always at 5.6
I only have one unit and record classical guitarist just to it. Last was a few years ago. The disadvantage of DSD is editing and there were some mistakes despite numerous takes.
The outsourced Studio I use has a MR2000 and it is really a basic mastering chain sweetening thru some of their console EQ and a little compression. It was eventually not used due to the mistakes.

For paying client we took the mix in PC and all as I am using sonar and ran it thru the console and captured the outs on a Pultec type ext EQ not the Master outs. Note: As the program material was not original DSD there is less to be gained, but as i have Audiogate and the MR instead of a Masterlink we went to it.

ABing at the time, a conversion made little audible difference, thus my interest in being able sync two units. I think that the backing track can be recorded PCM and mixed to DSD with the vocals to DSD along side providing its a perfect take as no editing available and the sum these as the mix. I hope DSD editing will come along one day.
There is a slight openess to recording to DSD Audio gate to PCM for editing and to be honest not worth the hassle on the MR1000. The MR2000 would be a much better proposition.

My personal chain is mixing down to the MR thru some basic otb units I have.
DBX compressor and a Drawmer 1969 EQ.

I consider the MR2000s to be a wiser choice than a Masterlink for eg, But before the MRs it was Masterlink for most otb mixes.

So even if you were just wanting a mixdown unit the MR2000 is good, as a reason to get one. If you mix in and render itb it is not needed. As you have a console you might as well get one.

Check with your ME if he has one and a file can be given, otherwise best to bring the unit in. I prefer them to not resample to PCM before their chain only at the end and yes it eventually has to end up 16bit.
DSD is as linear as digital can be right now as the sample frequency is based on the 1bit difference from the last bit, not like PCM 16 or more bits sampled from it's zero for each block of bits making a more stepped wave. If that matters to you you'd use it. If not don't.

[string6theory]

Originally Posted by jinksdingo

Just wondering if sync'd with s/pdif doesn't that entail the slave unit using up its input. And that you can record one side of each unit?

Or is is more like mixing the outs of one with new takes.
Yeah, I am from the days of tape recording.

Korg developed a protocol for the spdif connection to communicate/sync transport controls between 2 or 3 MR2000 units, so you just press record, stop etc. on the master unit and the slave(s) follow.

The DSD recording is captured through the analog XLR line inputs (on all MR units), not the digital spdif connections.

The MR units also record PCM (44.1 to 192) through the XLR analog inputs. You set up the desired "record mode" in the unit's menu. PCM produces WAV files at the chosen rate and DSD @ 5.6MHz/1-bit produces DFF files.


The spdif connections may also be used to connect directly to other spdif-capable gear/converters, for example when recording PCM. The menu has "clock source" options; internal (which is selected for DSD), spdif and word clock. The menu also has a "input source" options; RCA, XLR and spdif.

When you hook up multiple MR units to link & sync using the spdif connections, you cannot then use the same spdif's for connecting with other PCM gear/converters. No down side for me as I use the MR's for DSD recording and have the Apogees for PCM. But, it's cool to have both the DSD and PCM options available in one converter unit.

[Plush]

DSD is enjoyable for playbacks at the studio. Also useful to master to and then play back analog out at the mastering house. Otherwise, you can't get there from there!

The above are your two alternatives.

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by Plush

DSD is enjoyable for playbacks at the studio. Also useful to master to and then play back analog out at the mastering house. Otherwise, you can't get there from there!

The above are your two alternatives.

Almost. But AudioGate is a third alternative, since it provides superior renders of the DSD information in any PCM format (sample/bit rate) you choose.

[jinksdingo]

Thanks string6,
So, s/pdif can be set for clocking. Interesting.
How do you go with editing? I know on the MR1000 editing only really works with cuts made in silences in Audiogate. I presume it is much the same.

How do you get the perfect takes?

[Plush]

Originally Posted by DarkSky Media

Almost. But AudioGate is a third alternative, since it provides superior renders of the DSD information in any PCM format (sample/bit rate) you choose.

I've done all that with Audiogate and it is OK. I was pointing out how the OP could use DSD. Audiogate is not a superior transcoder. It is average.

[string6theory]

Originally Posted by jinksdingo

Thanks string6,
So, s/pdif can be set for clocking. Interesting.
How do you go with editing? I know on the MR1000 editing only really works with cuts made in silences in Audiogate. I presume it is much the same.

How do you get the perfect takes?

Yes, you can make cuts and split files in AugioGate, but I haven't really used that feature. It's the same process with all the MR units that use the AG software.

When DSD recording live playing, it's the basic principle... play it till you've captured a great take! That brings it's own enjoyment and results, as well as it's own inherent challenges... for sure! It's like that GS thread talking about capturing live to 2-track tape, it's not easy, but it can be very rewarding on many levels.

If you're you're capturing DSD beyond live tracking or as a master mix recorder, and need to apply track editing/DSP (e.g. in PT), then you can convert the tracks in AudioGate to the session rate and import them. I've done this on occasion with live played/DSD-captured rhythm bed tracks or overdriven/distorted electric guitar tracks with great results.

[multiano]

I've always wished I could afford an Ampex ATR 102; just kind of wrote it off my list though. A real a/b test between an ATR 102 and a Korg MR 2000s would be very interesting; i.e. listening to playback between both units and comparing directly to the source; hmmm, this might be what the original poster may be interested in as well as many others I'm sure. An ATR 102 is out of my league, but certainly not a Korg DSD recorder. Though an ATR might add something sweet to a mix, still I wonder if the Korg unit would be a good (as sweet) alternative to a 1/2" deck. Then, just find an ME who owns a Korg or is willing to use one.

[sage691]

Originally Posted by multiano

I've always wished I could afford an Ampex ATR 102; just kind of wrote it off my list though. A real a/b test between an ATR 102 and a Korg MR 2000s would be very interesting; i.e. listening to playback between both units and comparing directly to the source; hmmm, this might be what the original poster may be interested in as well as many others I'm sure. An ATR 102 is out of my league, but certainly not a Korg DSD recorder. Though an ATR might add something sweet to a mix, still I wonder if the Korg unit would be a good (as sweet) alternative to a 1/2" deck. Then, just find an ME who owns a Korg or is willing to use one.

This is exactly my interest, and the only reason I really started the thread !

I have virtually no interest in trying to use the DSD recorder as a live capture or for tracking, hence being able to do editing is of no interest to me.

I know that 1/2" tape will not sound the same as the console master outs, and that some say it sounds better, thicker, warmer, lusher, etc. I also have virtually no interest in that either, as I am 110% satisfied with what I am hearing coming off the console.

I just want to have the most high fidelity, pristine capture possible of the console master outs -- for now, and also for the future when hi res may become more accessible for consumers on a larger scale !

[multiano]

Hope it's okay to put this web address on here. I just read this; some good info and opinions here. I'm going to have to check one of these Korg DSD recorders out.

About DSD recording...

[nomoreflakes]

Originally Posted by jetam

Yes, I do. Of course some converters might sound better at specific sample rates, because of their construction, but otherwise it doesn't really matter. Most modern converters use 128x oversampling at 44.100. There is no need to capture at higher samplerate and than downsample, it already happens in the converter.

good lor, 'ere we go

[DSD_Mastering]

More and more studios are sending us files they've dumped to the Korg. Seems they are replacing their ADATS and Masterlinks.
Make sure the mastering studio can actually handle DSD files using either a Sonoma or Pyramix workstation. Don't let them resample to PCM.
Even the D-A in the Korg is not that special.

[jinksdingo]

To the OTP,
There is no doubt that DSD is the most pristine recording device for capturing your Trident mix. No doubt what so ever.

But your question raises the desire to record in DSD and mix to it. I and others record in any medium this way, old school or lazy. Take your pick.

That is where PCM has it over DSD in editing and time saving

High fidelity as a meaning has been overused in the old days to mean any old turntable/tape playback system.

It is apt to bring this definition to DSD compared to PCM.

To me unless you can maintain a very high end two track tape machine you have no business owning one as one of these is your only other choice.

[matyas]

Originally Posted by Plush

I've done all that with Audiogate and it is OK. I was pointing out how the OP could use DSD. Audiogate is not a superior transcoder. It is average.

Are there any good transcoders out there you'd recommend in the price range between [the free with my MR-1000] AudioGate and [$1700+] Saracon?
Just curious because I'm doing some location DSD recordings these days with the Korg unit, and I've been using AudioGate to transcode to PCM in order to edit in Samplitude. I have no complaints with AudioGate so far, but if there's something better out there (and preferably cheaper than Saracon), I'd be interested to check it out.

[sage691]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

More and more studios are sending us files they've dumped to the Korg. Seems they are replacing their ADATS and Masterlinks.
Make sure the mastering studio can actually handle DSD files using either a Sonoma or Pyramix workstation. Don't let them resample to PCM.
Even the D-A in the Korg is not that special.

So what you're saying is connect the 2 track master outs from the Trident to the A/D of the Korg, but then avoid using the D/A of the Korg for mastering ? Excuse me if I come across as a novice, but I have zero experience with this unit !

I was thinking the ME would simply be able to play back the mixes from the Korg's D/A into his analog chain and go from there.

Are you saying that the ideal way is to print the mix thru the Korg A/D @ 5.6Mhz, then simply back that up to an external HD via USB, and then you can simply bring that hard drive to an ME who has a Sonoma or Pyramix station and he can load in the mixes (DSD files) and go from there ?

[sage691]

Originally Posted by jinksdingo

To the OTP,
There is no doubt that DSD is the most pristine recording device for capturing your Trident mix. No doubt what so ever.

To me unless you can maintain a very high end two track tape machine you have no business owning one as one of these is your only other choice.

Thanks for your input. I have a friend with an ATR102 and he had to take a class on how to maintain it. He actually does mastering now, and the last time I was at his place this machine was just collecting dust in the corner.

Awhile back he brought over what I believe was the Tascam DSD deck and we captured some rough mixes off the Trident with it. I do remember being pretty impressed with it, and he told me that all the stuff he gets to master from this pretty big time studio was on DSD.

This was 2 years ago BTW.

So in your opinion the Korg DSD A/D @ 5.6Mhz will yield noticeably superior results to the Lavry Blue @ 96khz to Masterlink ?

I do a ton of processing, mostly all in the analog domain. It's not uncommon for one of my mixes to have 22 different channels of outboard compression (some on inserts, and others for parallel), a Red 3 on the master bus, several Eventides, Lexicons, and a TC m5000 for FX.

[c1ferrari]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

Even the D-A in the Korg is not that special.

That's been my observation; however, rather uncertain whether the Mytek
Stereo192-DSD DAC is the solution or perhaps, some mods to the Korg MR-2000S

[string6theory]

That would be strange since everyone listens to the Korg through the DA.

BTW, I've not yet heard the Mytek and they have the std and upgrade senoma card option with x2 DSD. The total price is nice for 8 channels.

More converter manus should offer both (x2) DSD and PCM... it's great to have both!

[over-man]

Originally Posted by string6theory

That would be strange since everyone listens to the Korg through the DA.

There is at least one place that already mods the Korg DSD units:

BUSMAN AUDIO - modifications


I looked into capturing my analog mixes on a Korg for the same reasons mentioned above, mainly that the captured mix doesn't sound quite the same on playback as it does when I'm hearing it live on the board. I never really noticed this before I got my new Spiral Groove monitors, but now I do after capturing individual sources as well as the 2-mix...post a/d just lacks a certain vibrancy/energy.

The hd24xr, my convertor, typically has solid reviews, but there are mods for it as well. I guess there are just better parts out there to get those last few degrees of improvement. A friend just gave me a pristine 1968? Sony 1/4" reel to reel that was only used one time, so I'm going to give that a try soon.

[audiokid]

string6theory is spot on.

Once I'm OTB, I never save the same session on the same box, never.
I have a second recorder to capture the glorious analog sum. I avoid SRC like the plague.

I use a few converters to make it all flow and a Dangerous Monitor ST to hear it all.

Just got an MR2000SBK for this very thing. Been using Sequoia to capture the 2buss and its been stellar. I'm excited to start using the MR2000S. Nice to find this thread and to find people searching for better.

[c1ferrari]

Originally Posted by string6theory

That would be strange since everyone listens to the Korg through the DA.

BTW, I've not yet heard the Mytek and they have the std and upgrade senoma card option with x2 DSD. The total price is nice for 8 channels.

More converter manus should offer both (x2) DSD and PCM... it's great to have both!

Hi string6theory,

I went to a friend's studio where we listened to a DSD128 recording we had made of a solo acoustic guitar in my living room. The recording chain...factory-matched stereo pair Schoeps CMC65's/card,xy --> Gordon Model 5 --> Korg MR-2000s.

We first listened through the Korg's DAC and analog section, then through PCM 192 -- sorry, can't remember the chain at the studio, precisely. We both preferred the latter.

I'd LOVE to have a Korg multi-track DSD recorder, though...can DSD256 be on the horizon

[sage691]

Originally Posted by c1ferrari

Hi string6theory,

I went to a friend's studio where we listened to a DSD128 recording we had made of a solo acoustic guitar in my living room. The recording chain...factory-matched stereo pair Schoeps CMC65's/card,xy --> Gordon Model 5 --> Korg MR-2000s.

We first listened through the Korg's DAC and analog section, then through PCM 192 -- sorry, can't remember the chain at the studio, precisely. We both preferred the latter.

I'd LOVE to have a Korg multi-track DSD recorder, though...can DSD256 be on the horizon

So the prevailing sentiment is that it's good enough to go with the Korg on the way in, but find something better on the back end for playback ?

Getting more confused by the minute here !!

What's the difference ?

[sage691]

Originally Posted by audiokid

string6theory is spot on.

Once I'm OTB, I never save the same session on the same box, never.
I have a second recorder to capture the glorious analog sum. I avoid SRC like the plague.

I use a few converters to make it all flow and a Dangerous Monitor ST to hear it all.

Just got an MR2000SBK for this very thing. Been using Sequoia to capture the 2buss and its been stellar. I'm excited to start using the MR2000S. Nice to find this thread and to find people searching for better.

PLEASE let us know your findings; I may be pulling the trigger soon myself !

[c1ferrari]

Originally Posted by over-man

There is at least one place that already mods the Korg DSD units:

BUSMAN AUDIO - modifications

Thanks for the link, Ryan. I had heard/read of these mods, but didn't much know about them until I followed your link

There's another mod option in The Netherlands I'm contemplating...appears to be more extensive and certainly, more expensive

Oh, well...what's the expression -- in for a dime...in for a dollar

[c1ferrari]

Originally Posted by sage691

So the prevailing sentiment is that it's good enough to go with the Korg on the way in, but find something better on the back end for playback ?

Getting more confused by the minute here !!

What's the difference ?

Hi sage691,

Yeah...that kinda sums -lol- it up for me. I hope to approximate mastering quality with a superior back end.

As I recall, I preferred the upconverted PCM as it sounded smoother, better integrated, and less distorted, overall. I know...it's a paradox. It's anathema for me to convert between DSD and PCM -- that's why I've concluded, perhaps erroneously, the Korg's DAC and/or analog section and/or peripheral circuitry is a restricting factor, sonically.

YMMV

[string6theory]

Originally Posted by c1ferrari

Hi string6theory,

I went to a friend's studio where we listened to a DSD128 recording we had made of a solo acoustic guitar in my living room. The recording chain...factory-matched stereo pair Schoeps CMC65's/card,xy --> Gordon Model 5 --> Korg MR-2000s.

We first listened through the Korg's DAC and analog section, then through PCM 192 -- sorry, can't remember the chain at the studio, precisely. We both preferred the latter.

I'd LOVE to have a Korg multi-track DSD recorder, though...can DSD256 be on the horizon

It's all good. In that PRW thread on DSD someone linked above, I recall compasspnt (Terry Manning) relating a similar experience with a band in the studio (Compass Point in the Bahamas) comparing both the Korg DSD and PCM mix captures, and both the band and label preferred the latter.

But, I really don't think that's due to the Korg's DA being lacking. More just a sonic preference for the album. I have no doubt they sounded different.

Absolutely... in that same PRW thread someone else linked an announcement from Korg regarding an 8 channel multitrack editable DSD system/software called Clarity. There it was, a working system in prototype. So, we know they've developed something. But this was back in 2010 and not a peep since. So who knows. But it would sell.

I hope Korg finishes what they started! Clarity indeed!

[string6theory]

Originally Posted by sage691

So the prevailing sentiment is that it's good enough to go with the Korg on the way in, but find something better on the back end for playback ?

Getting more confused by the minute here !!

What's the difference ?

Haha... Yes that would be a confusing notion, but I don't know about prevailing sentiment. It's like what's the point if that's the case.

Although I have no doubt bringing the DSD files to an experienced ME with a great DSD mastering setup would be an excellent option. But so is playing the Korgs DA into an experienced ME's great analog mastering setup.