Neve 54/Studer/Cadac/Harrison/Neotek/Audient...highest end sound for budget bargains?

[madgansound]

Since no one seems to be biting I'll make some obvious points. Some of the desks you listed I would not want to be tracking with. Some of the desks you listed I would not want to be mixing with or summing on. Having one that does both well is certainly do-able but not necessarily advisable in what seems to be your situation. One very large factor you will need to deal with, I realize you did mention it, is conversion. Based on your budget, to do things properly you may spend almost as much on this as you will on your desk, sometimes more. Based on some comments you have made I am assuming you do not have a lot of experience in the game. Having a console is NOT going to make you competitive with any heavy hitters nor is it going to make you sound like one. If you do not understand basics regarding signal flow and gain staging, don't have the background/knowledge to maintain a desk yourself and live in an area were access to a tech is a problem bringing a large format console into your world is the last thing I would suggest you do. I would advise what most have been doing for the past decade. Build a strong front-end from mics to the converters. Get as many channels for tracking as you may need. Use a DAW you're comfortable with or get comfortable with one. Mix in the box or use a hybrid set-up where you can integrate some of your front-end tools while mixing down/summing. You'll save a lot of money in the beginning and your product will not suffer because of it. Build and expand as needed, increasing your knowledge and improving your end result as the time goes by.

You do not need a desk to create a wonderful sounding album. Unless you are spending considerable money taking into account dynamics, effects, patch-bays, cabling, etc... I would say a desk will hinder you much more than it will help.

I've been down both roads and wish you much luck with your journey.

[chrisrulesmore]

Depending on your needs for channel count and routing, I would strongly suggest you check out the Aurora Audio Sidecar.

Aurora Audio Sidecar

And while I do partially agree with the post above, i.e. a console won't heal bad recording technique, I disagree with the implication that converters are more important. That has not been my experience thus far.

Best,
Chris

[sinewavecrafts]

Hi Magdan and thanks for your response...

I appreciate all your comments and I understand your points about remaining in the box and focusing on the input stage. Indeed I am hoping to buy a 16 ch symphony i/o thunderbolt with my next paycheck. Though they are not quite the same I have heard my friends Prism Sound Orpheus and I realize the difference the A/D stage makes.

My experience is indeed limited. Though I have been producing for a while now, I was, until recently, working in a non-paid capacity. I have played in many bands but where production is concerned the genres I produced were less organic and more sequencer based. After messing with 4 tracks and cheap mixers as a kid I am now better adapted to the Logic Pro environment. From experiments with Waves NLS however, I am keen to experiment more OTB. I have worked on a few Mackie's, Soundcraft and Allen & Heath boards... I even rode an SSL 9000J for a one off session at BBC Maidevaille. Though I admit that I was overwhelmed and didn't really know what I was staring at.

One of the main reasons I need a desk is because I feel it is a shame not to play live drums for my own productions. I have been playing for almost 20 years and though I love using V-drums with some virtual drum programs (BFD) I have also tracked live drums in a few studios and feel that some of the magic is lost in the soft sampler realm. Unfortunately the outboard pre's I need to cater for my Sonor Designer would cost more than a desk and so I see a Studer 962 as a cost effective way to get enough signals to DAW simultaneously. Having said that I also want to do more band recording anyway and figured that if I get a desk it would be silly not to at least try mixing through it. Again I am humble in the above regards but figure that mistakes are a means to get better and where my forays might fall short I hope that I will eventually develop experience.

I understand where you are coming from with your desk warnings... I borrowed a friends Mackie Onyx 1640 for a while and nearly all the channels remained redundant. However I was not ready to record drums at the time. I also understand that experience is needed when gain staging and indeed a couple of my mixes ran too hot through that board and sounded harsh on the ear.

I do need to step up my game somehow someway though. I have to deliver a lot of music according to tight deadlines for work. Perhaps I will take a few steps backwards in my efforts but I am hoping that when they ask me to deliver a batch of songs I can jump on the drum throne and track solid rhythm tracks for the whole batch on day 1 and I'm hoping that energetic drum tracks will get me half way there??

Who know's? There's only one way to find out though

Once again... thanks for offering your insight. I appreciate your time and after reading this I will go to extra lengths to put the desk to better use than I did before.

[madgansound]

Originally Posted by chrisrulesmore

Depending on your needs for channel count and routing, I would strongly suggest you check out the Aurora Audio Sidecar.

Aurora Audio Sidecar - Gearslutz.com

And while I do partially agree with the post above, i.e. a console won't heal bad recording technique, I disagree with the implication that converters are more important. That has not been my experience thus far.

Best,
Chris

My apologies, I did not realize I had implied that?

[sinewavecrafts]

@ chisrulesmore

Thanks too for your suggestion. My browser didn't seem to update your contribution earlier. I'm closing in on the 962 but will check out the aurora. IDK which is more important between good analogue channels or converters. I wonder if the sum of the parts would glare more obviously when listening to a sum of multiple sources rather than individual mics? I suspect a full drum kit sound with weak links in any stage of the input chain would not print to disk with as mush dimension, accuracy or energy as a full drum kit with either low end converters, or low end pre's or low end mics. Whislt I'm no expert, it's just an instinct, but I imagine an A/B comparison would reveal shortcomings in the weaker input path.

Let's not debate about interfaces vs analogue channels. Let's just keep forking out for the best of everything so the manufacturers can afford to keep outdating us! But I'm always thankful for any responses when I post online. Thanks again.

[Bassmankr]

One thing I see you have not defined yet is your exact needs. How many channels will you record at a time? Will you be using a desks pres or outboard? EQ - compression on the front end? Mixing in the box or hybrid on the desk? Many channels at mix time do you need? The answers to the above will narrow the list a bit.

Next, Macpro video makes a decent video on desk signal flow going into the many variations. I'm sure there are other videos as well as many books that get into that subject for you to learn from. When you understand signal flow and routing options to a high level then some of the desk's differences will make much more sense so you can pick the routings that best serve your needs instead of picking a desk and the desk telling you how you have to work. Many of the desks that make your short list have manuals you can download to further study a desk's signal flow / routing options.

As far as producing a commercial product on a desk. There are plenty of desks in the $2k to $5 used price range that have put out plenty of hits. Given your higher budget, that should not be a concern. In fact given how cheap used desks are right now some of those desks sold new for $80k. Which desk do you think might offer more quality, a new $20k desk or a used $80k desk now going for $5k? There are even cut down / frankenstien versions of even more expensive desks than that at bargain prices. So the point I'm trying to make is look at ALL the options out there.

[Plush]

I don't really have an idea of how many channels you require.

May I say a few things about some of the specific consoles you have listed?

Neve 54 series--very good sound, no direct outs, not designed for use with a multi-track. I know because I own and use these consoles. These are from an era where it was presumed that you would be making the two mix on the spot at the session.

Studer series--also not designed to be used with a multi-track. However there is facility for taking the channel outputs to a multi-track. Very good sound, very clean.

CADAC-superb consoles with a very high price. The new LIVE1 series is excellent value and has direct outs on each channel. Again--superb sound with a console oriented to work with sound reinforcement or as a front end to a daw. Put the LIVE 1 on your short list.

Neotek--today I would not recommend it.
Harrison--I do not recommend it for YOU.

Audient--I would short list this console as well. It is a superb console line and includes the less expensive 16 channel ASP4816.

So for you I recommend Audeint and CADAC.

Quality multi-track conversion is available these days for reasonable money.

The most important thing in setting yourself apart from the competition is a quality source pick up. This includes good mic placement, good room, good mic amps and quality mixing buss. Lo and behold!--quality playas are also essential.

Conversion is waaayy down the list after assembling an outstanding front end to capture the source.

Lastly, don't buy worn out used equipment. KNOW the lineage of the equipment and test it before agreeing to pay for it.

[Daniel Stark]

I would recommend spending the 15K auditioning a bunch of gear and keeping what you like best. Although there are great deals on used gear IMO the time you spend learning what you like and flipping gear around, would have been better spent buying from a dealer with a return policy and figuring out what works best for you.

Some good options for drum tracking/mixing that you could order, try out, and return if they didn't float your boat: API 3124's and a Thermionic Fat Bustard or SSL x-desk, Audient/Focusrite 2802, Toft ATB-08. If you spent 15k demo'ing all this gear side by side, and kept whatever you liked best (or none at all) you could at least be sure that the money you ended up tossing down would be well spent.

PS what does buying a console have to do with playing drums??

[jackinthebox]

I have a Cadac a-type think might fit the bill for you. Very high quality signal path with 10 busses, 10 auxes, 4 band parametric and filters, lots of other useful functions. Clean but you can drive it into colourful saturation. Big GPO patchbay, all military spec connectors etc. built like a tank. Marinair transformers.
I used to have a studer 962 which sounded fantastic but was a little limiting. Very basic eq and no input pads on the channels. Not really designed to be driven hard. Very compact though and built like a Swiss watch. Very sweet sounding for acoustic music.

[sinewavecrafts]

Hi guys & cheers for your help… Hopefully this thread will educate others as well as me.

I studied production at college and so I have a theoretical understanding of signal flow; and I have used a fair range of consoles with mixed results. However my certificate is no substitute for regular, routine experience and I humbly admit that I lack in the latter... but with practice I hope to get good use from a board.

Daniel the idea behind the desk is to get enough signals into the desk. Unfortunately I can't audition gear as there is none in Doha and it is very expensive to ship things.

I do intend to get some extra pre's/comps/EQ's & Mics. Starting with Sound Skulptor kits, a U87, a pair of KM84's and drum mics (I'll probably be bugging everyone here for more suggestions). Initially the purpose is to track drums. A 16 channel Studer 962 will provide a high enough count of pre's with EQ for great value. I have read that the pre's compare to solo units costing about 1500-2000. I think channel out routing will do... if I need a more comprehensive monitor section for recording bands I'll cross that bridge later. For now I need good pre's and useable EQ, and to get good signals to and from my DAW. With this in mind I wanted to focus on sound quality. Perhaps I'm overlooking practical functional requirements which will become apparent in practice?

Whilst I hope to get into a good room and develop better, more minimal mic arrangements, I hope to cover my bases. I have captured useable drum sounds before but see this as a chance to practice the art… and when in a less ideal space I need to know I will get enough material to disk to craft a good kit sound. Unfortunately I'm one of those irritating drummers who prefers not to port hole the kick reso head… so I anticipate using a sub kick and either a mic suspended in a Kelly's Shoe inside, or another mic on the batter. Thereafter it'll be snare top and bottom, hat, 3 toms, overheads and a mono room mic. I'm aiming at getting a sound out of the OH mics and Room but will rest assured if I can creep in direct signals too. With that said I figured a channel count of 11 might do… but then I have read that sometimes it's better to get a few more than you see the need for- as you might surprise yourself in the future. As I intend to track bands in the future, I figured on just getting 16ins and a few extra pre's to be future proof.

It seemed wasteful to get a quality desk just for tracking and not mixing too. With this in mind I reason that extra channels is never a bad thing, and see myself integrating an MPC into the flow too. This might eat a bunch of the DAW's desk channels at mixdown but with 16 I should have enough.

I'm still interested in the series 54… providing it has been modified for direct channel outs... but I have only seen an 8 channel floating around.

Bassmankr … Where is the used market you mention? Unfortunately I suspect it's in the GS classifieds… unfortunately there is a waiting list for access. Right now I am stuck doing google, ebay and gumtree searches as well as checking companies who resell (funky junk etc). But if you can show me where I can grab an 80K desk for 5K please do. Form is a factor; I'd prefer a smaller footprint for home and location use which is why the Studers and Neve 54 are ideal. I may be convinced to upsize for greater sonic class. I'm intrigued about the sort of deals you mention. I agree that getting a used console serviced is a better way of getting quality on a budget- providing repair technician costs are factored into the budget. A good deal on a used 16ch Studer would be about 4K… and they were considerably more expensive when they were in production... but where might I find 80K value desks for my budget? And are smaller formats available?

Plush … I do intend to get older gear but as stated I am factoring the costs of inspection and servicing into the purchase. Recapping a Studer or series 54 still represents better quality for the money when compared to newer desks for the same price.

Assuming I can pick up modified versions to provide 16 channel outs (all the desks which don't feature this can either be modified or have insert points which can be used instead), which of the named consoles would be be classiest and most versatile SONICALLY in the current Pop climate? I figure a clean sound might have less character but would be more versatile. I'd need to do intimate styles like jazz or Acoustica, heavier guitar styles, genres with punchy drums and fast transients like Hip Hop, and bass-heavy styles like D'n"B and Electronica. With this in mind … what's your verdict on the classiest sound between the Studers/Neve series 54/Cadac Live1/and the Audient? (all configured with direct outs). I notice other Cadacs such as J/E and A series can go used within my budget.

Jackinthe box the Cadac sounds awesome and it is a shame the 962 doesn't feature pads.

Guys please let me know if you spot any deals or if you see a Neve 54 with direct out mods.

Thanks again for your time. It's all very helpful and I appreciate it.

[BasketCase Audio]

Originally Posted by Plush

I don't really have an idea of how many channels you require.

May I say a few things about some of the specific consoles you have listed?

Neve 54 series--very good sound, no direct outs, not designed for use with a multi-track. I know because I own and use these consoles. These are from an era where it was presumed that you would be making the two mix on the spot at the session.

Audient--I would short list this console as well. It is a superb console line and includes the less expensive 16 channel ASP4816.

I concur with the above. I use a Neve 542 for location recording or simply as a front end (preamps and EQ's). Mine has been modded with direct outputs.

I wouldn't consider it a console at all. Its a little mixing desk. Very simple... but nothing like the Audient which is geared up to be the center piece of a studio.

[Bassmankr]

10 cents on the dollar is not uncommon for used desks. A quick trip to ebay found this over $80k desk for less than 5 cents on the dollar but probably one you will not be interested in: Otari Concept One 40 Channel Dual I O Inline Recording Console | eBay

Nobody is going to hand pick a deal for you. Get your hands dirty and scour regularly ebay/craiglist/all the audio boards classifieds/estate auctions/business auctions/gov. auctions/list WTB (want to buy) ads yourself. There are good desk deals out there but you have to do some work. Cabling costs some bucks too so see if they include or you can get a deal on the cabling that may come with a desk.

[BradD]

Originally Posted by Plush

Neotek--today I would not recommend it.
.

Plush, what happened? I thought you were a big Neotek guy.

[Plush]

Neotek is fantastic--especially if you are in Chicago, home of Neotek. OP is in Arabia where its not so great to not be near parts etc.

[Capashitor]

I would strongly advise considering the audient 4816 in your budget. It will do all you want, will be new and made of durable parts that won't need replacing for the next 10 years, and will sound clean in a stellar way. You should really contact Simon Horn here he will be more than happy to answer all your questions.

Getting a used console if you have limited access to techs and spare parts IS going to be a nightmare, and I'm not speaking of the weight of the ones you listed.

The cadac live1 as suggested might be a great sounding option but it will be more expensive than the audient and have less routing options, while the 4816 is inline and has a very interesting split EQ design and all the monitoring options you might want. And it only takes 1 of your friends to help you lift it.

edit : the 4816 is a 16 channel inline console, you get 16 big faders and 16 small ones, 2 line inputs and 1 mic input per channel that are switchable, plus the returns. So you have 32 mix channels in the end, with the option to assign each half of the EQ to either the big or the small fader. Badass !

[mintytowel]

I bought a Harrison series 32 two years ago and have been slowly refurbishing it ever since. It sounds amazing. For financial reasons I chose to go with Lynx Aurora converters. I had 8 channels of Apogee Rosetta 800, but it was cheaper to get 32 channels of Lynx than an additional 24 of the Apogee. I am glad I made the switch, I quite prefer the sound of the Lynx.

There are some major differences between the different revisions A, B, and C of the 32 series. Do a search on this forum to learn more. But some modifications can be done to make any of the revisions sound pretty amazing. My recordings have made a great leap forward sonically. I cant explain it, but everything just sounds more "silky" to me. I know its not a very musical term, but its the only way I can describe it. It just sounds like a big console. It is both punchier but more pillowy and round at the same time. It seems like a contradiction, yet somehow the difference in sound does indeed seem to go two different directions at once.


Having a console is great, I'm not gonna lie. But as amazing as it is, it was a nightmare to get up and working properly. Keep in mind that I am in Los Angeles where there are plenty of great techs around. Even so, I have had to learn to solder, do some basic trouble shooting, and preventative maintenance.

My biggest suggestion to you would be that if you do buy an older console, really do your homework and find one that has been well maintained. In hindsight I would have been much better off waiting to save more money than buying something I knew was a great bargain, but needed "a little TLC". What I estimated to be a couple of weeks and $1500 to $2000 is now two years and $6000 or so.

With all of the learning from my own mistakes, I helped a friend find an old MCI 400. It is only 24 channels and has a smaller footprint than my 40 channel Harrison. Also, although it is even older than mine, it was meticulously maintained by its previous owner, and he had it up and running in no time and it sounds stunning. Two years in, I am still spending time and money getting My Harrison woking as it should, while he was up and running in just a few days time.

He paid way more for his desk than I did, and he was quite hesitant spending so much more than I paid for my console, but I told him it was a better decision. He now agrees that it was indeed the better choice financially to make.

If you want an old console, go ahead and get one. Don't let anyone change your mind, but also, don't blindly go in without knowing the pitfalls you could face. They can be fairly easily avoided.

As a side note, I have noticed that there seem to be a lot less consoles on ebay or craigslist in the last year or so. My theory is that all of the big studios that were forced to close once everyone could record on a modest rig at home and achieve some pretty amazing results, have already closed. Guys like me and you, those of us who always wanted but could never afford one swooped in and got the cheap deals, so there aren't as many left to find. This is also true with tape machines, I have actually noticed the price going back up a little from the ridiculous low prices of two or three years ago.

So my advice in a nutshell....

Get one if you want one, but spend a little extra money for one in tip top shape that you can check out and test.

Leave money in your budget and set it aside for maintenance and repairs.

Also budget for all the cabling you need, a lot of people forget that part

Get good converters, and have enough to utilize your entire console otherwise there is no point in having one.

And don't be afraid of what you don't know. This is the era of the internet. Just sifting through the good information on this one forum alone, (be careful because there is misinformation here as well) would have cost you thousands of dollars in books ten or fifteen years ago, and this is just one sight ,there are all kinds of other helpful forums I have found that have helped me as well. People with expertise have been more than generous with their help and knowledge. Remember, you are building a studio not a rocket ship, and as much as everyone wants to think you need to take years to learn this stuff, that is the old model of thinking. If you have a console, you wont have to spend a year getting coffee, then a couple more assisting before you can get your hands on one during a session. Sure it will take you a while but you will have instant access, and more information just a click away than a studio apprentice in the 70's or 80's could ever have imagined. If you seek the information you will find it. When I went to college for this stuff, no one would share their secrets. Now they are all over youtube.

That said there is no replacement for experience, but you can gain more knowledge quicker than ever before if you chose.

[stevelindsay]

FWIW, I had a similar budget and tossed up between going for an older LFAC, or a newer SFAC. In the end I went with a new Audient 4816 with 16 channels of Lynx conversion. Very happy with the choice.

[nickelironsteel]

i'd go for some WSW or Siemens

highest quality and tons of colour

Siemens AG Austria 8x2 Console

[sinewavecrafts]

This topic has gathered some steam and I sincerely thank all of you who have cared to comment... you rock!

With a lack of experience and entering into the console market for the first time I must admit that it's been a nightmare figuring out what to go for. Bassmankr, I appreciate your advice. In an ideal world I should test drive different options. You can't imagine how difficult that would be in Doha. Can you imagine that I called the 6 biggest studios in Doha. Not one of them was equipped to track enough simultaneous signals. It's official - you can not record a drum kit in the desert. That said... after 6 months or so of spending I may just have the best facility in the country?

I admit I have really been after 2nd hand opinions as your expertise is all I can go by... and after I commit to buying, maintenance and shipping Im screwed if I make a bad choice. I have been obsessing over this and all your opinions have been invaluable.

I hope I'm not driving you mad as I'm chasing my own tail a bit. But I realized something.

I need the channel count and quality pre's for drums (12ish) but aside from that I will probably only use a channel or 2 at a time in home use. So I figured I would return the DAW to the rest of the desk and reserve the 1st 2 channels with guitar and bass ready to track when I am at home. However a small format is preferred for when I need to hire a room and take the console to record drums. These are likely to be the main tracking requirements. That aside I am using it as a summing solution. Don't really want to go for the dedicated summing mixer solution as I still need the drum preamps. But the point is I might not really need to worry about input switching or repatching for DAW returns after tracking sessions as I won't really be doing elaborate tracking at home anyway. Drum recording is likely to be a once every 6 week thing.

I've had some great offers from GS members and I'm currently choosing between small Studers (089/169/189/961/962), D&R Vision and Audient 4816. The Studer is the most convenient to move around for drum sessions but the Vision and Audient are more flexible. However I might not need the flexibility considering the use that I outlined above.

But can anyone advise me how the above compare in terms of pre-amp quality? I understand all are clean and uncolored (except 089/169/189)... I'll use outboard for character.

Small format Studers vs D&R Vision vs Audient 4816 in preamp boxing ring. Round One. Who wins?

[ddageek]

Long run I think a new audient is your best bet, Were talking about a quality console with worldwide distribution and support. There are tons of used deals out there, but once you factor Packing, Shipping and service the Bargain becomes a loser bet.
Also I think the Audient is going to be a console you can wrap your head around as a self described console noobie.
I would contact Audient and figure out where and how you can get a demo, consider it an investment in your console.

[sinewavecrafts]

I do like the idea of the Audient in terms of features. It's such a comprehensive bit of gear. Not sure I'll make best use of all the features regularly... but it is a more future proof solution granted.

Only reservation is that whilst people seem to rate the Audient preamps I have seen very few comments which rave about them. General opinion seems to be that they are clean, quality and useable good preamps. But unlike the Studer few people say

" *%$#^ s*@T!!! the preamps are superb "

Similar with D&R... people suggest they are LIKE Studer. But as for which is better (better been measured by the unit .Ithinks) it seems the Jury's not out. People generally suggest they are really very good ... but I haven't read about anyone wetting their pants over them. 2nd hand opinions are risky to go by I grant... but I have read people equate D&R pre's to rack mount pre's under the 1K price range, whereas Studer's are said to equate to rack pre's in the 1.5-2K range.

I do like the idea of all 3. Admittedly the D&R and Audient are more practical in terms of routing... but the Studer is so cute it'd fit in your pack pocket for remote sessions.

[ddageek]

I demoed the very first Audient Console to ever land in the United States, the pres while not "wow" are very usable. Your not going to find many consoles in this price range with Wow pres. The thing about color or pres a step above those in the Audient is that you need to find the ones that work for you.
I say you are better off with the Audient, and outboard pres, unless you want to spend significant time using and listening to consoles. Right now your driving blind and haing sold as many consoles as anybody on this board. Considering your location, skill level budget, lack of support The Audient is not going to be a bad choice.
Consider the fact that any Used console is going to need to be crated, a new Audient is going to come ready to ship, and you will have recourse for any shipping damage alone!

[DirkB]

Highest value for money?

I had been looking at the Audients also for quite some time, until I stumbled across a nice D&R Orion, 32ch mono, 12ch stereo inline console.
Everything I need, including a nice patchbay (although it needs to be wired).

Bought for Euro 3K .

Regards,
Dirk

[skybluerental]

whatever you do, get something modular.

servicing consoles that are not modular is a pain in the ass!

[Philip S Bova]

Originally Posted by skybluerental

whatever you do, get something modular.

servicing consoles that are not modular is a pain in the ass!

Amen Brother.

[Plush]

CADAC LIVE1 16 ch. console is $5000 new. It has the CADAC sound.

[sinewavecrafts]

Thanks for all the advice guys... am slowly getting somewhere with all this. The Live1 does look interesting but there's not much info in terms of user experience.

Will let you all know how I get on... and post some pics when I get sorted.

Cheers again

[Plush]

CADAC is an analog console. Buy it and use it. How can you go wrong with CADAC?

[cheu78]

Originally Posted by sinewavecrafts

Thanks for all the advice guys... am slowly getting somewhere with all this. The Live1 does look interesting but there's not much info in terms of user experience.

Will let you all know how I get on... and post some pics when I get sorted.

Cheers again

Sorry for the shameless plug... I have two studer consoles for sale in the classifieds.. 963 and a 970.. I need to down size and make all fit in a new recording room..



Cheu