Lexicon 480L or an AMS RMX 16...

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by raal

that thing is cool isn't it (a little noisy)? love it on vocals. bought one at guitar center about 16 years ago... so is it vintage yet?

Because of the noise i use it mostly for the choruses and flange for keys.

Originally Posted by raal

talking about EMT 250:
besides the bucks i'd be scared of the maintenance... and in mexico fuggedaboudit, but it is a fantasy in the back of my mind.

Yeah but isn't David Kulka in Cali?


And he repairs them.


Still that wouldn't deter me one bit.


I mean what could you buy with $10K that wouldn't need some kind of repair?

[raal]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Yeah but isn't David Kulka in Cali?


And he repairs them.


Still that wouldn't deter me one bit.


I mean what could you buy with $10K that wouldn't need some kind of repair?

the place is in mexico city - thousands of miles from california, so stuff that needs a going over once is fine, but something that has to be maintained periodically is tough down here.

we used to rent a 250 in LA in the 80s and i remember the thing had to be tweaked fairly often (if memory serves, it's oil based or something, so it's a mechanical process - i may be wrong though).

but those things did sound amazing, and the little R2D2 guy looked great.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by raal

(if memory serves, it's oil based or something,

Are you sure it wasn't the actual R2D2 that you guys had there?



And that's a picture of a EMT 251.


Different maintance issues.

[raal]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Are you sure it wasn't the actual R2D2 that you guys had there?



And that's a picture of a EMT 251.


Different maintance issues.

just found a pic of a 250. it's up now. do you remember what it was that they had to do to those things maintenance wise? also, i think i remember they all sounded a bit different (250s), so engineers usually requested the same one. does this sound right or am i having an alzheimer moment?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by raal

just found a pic of a 250. it's up now. do you remember what it was that they had to do to those things maintenance wise? also, i think i remember they all sounded a bit different (250s), so engineers usually requested the same one. does this sound right or am i having an alzheimer moment?

You mean between the many IC's, power supply, Radio shack TRS-80 ram and converters?

(What the hell am i thinking?)

Maybe we can pull David Kulka in on this one.

And yes on the latter...there is a sonic difference between the 251's and 250's.

The 251 was supposed to add more functions and extended frequency response(which as we know will change the sound all together).


And i know guys that hear differences between different 250's.


I gather the difference must be in the power supply or when it starts to go.

[raal]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

You mean between the many IC's, power supply, Radio shack TRS-80 and converters?

(What the hell am i thinking?)

Maybe we can pull David Kulka in on this one.

as i rememeber there were issues that weren't necessarily with the electronics, but they don't call me raalzheimer for nothing.

And yes on the latter...there is a sonic difference between the 251's and 250's.

The 251 was supposed to add more functions and extended frequency response(which as we know will change the sound all together).


And i know guys that hear differences between different 250's.


I gather the difference must be in the power supply or when it starts to go.

yeah, i remember people preferring a certain 250 over others (250s, not 251).
would be cool if david kulka could shed some light. BTW there's one at PAD for $7K.

[Dirty Halo]

Sorry to go from one subject to another, but in what regards is the RSS Roland R-880 held?

It isn't an R2D2, but I thoughbt it was another one of the biggies of the day...turned into classic? Yes or no?

-a

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Sorry to go from one subject to another, but in what regards is the RSS Roland R-880 held?

It isn't an R2D2, but I thoughbt it was another one of the biggies of the day...turned into classic? Yes or no?

-a

I would put the top 10 digital reverb hall of fame like this (again my own opinion):

1) EMT250

2) Lexicon 480L

3) AMS RMX16

4) Quantec QRS

5) Eventide SP 2016

6) Lexicon 224XL

7) TC M5000

8) Roland R-880

9) PCM 70

10) a tie between KT780 and Sony DPS V-77(R7)

Honorable mention goes to Yamaha Rev1(rev 5 and rev7), EMT 251 the Ursa Major Space station, Yamaha SPX90(990 as well), Eventide H3000,Alesis Midiverb and Sony DRE-S77.

The TC M6000 is a little too new.

[Dirty Halo]

Now... where do each "tend" to excell?

-a

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Now... where do each "tend" to excell?

-a

Well i could honestly say that every major record made in the last 26 years has at least one of the above on it.

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Well i could honestly say that every major record made in the last 26 years has at least one of the above on it.

I mean, off your list, would you put what YOU like about each, where you use each of them the most...or would, etc?

Love to get your insight.

...or you're just messing with me for sport

-a

[Dirty Halo]

Why? What does it excell at? Very curious indeed.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Why? What does it excell at? Very curious indeed.

I use it mostly on vocals.

And vocals will always expose bad digital reverbs(along with snares).

Background vocals mostly and the occasional lead.

Why on backgrounds?

Because normally you tend to pan them wide so you need a reverb that can be heard but won't take up space.


The R-880 does this well.


Better than most.


Also it blends well with other thicker reverbs(like an EMT 250 or a 224XL) or colored delays(PCM 42 and DMX 1580).


So you can do complicated layers and it won't make the vocal washy and hollow.

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I use it mostly on vocals.

And vocals will always expose bad digital reverbs(along with snares).

Background vocals mostly and the occasional lead.

Why on backgrounds?

Because normally you tend to pan them wide so you need a reverb that can be heard but won't take up space.


The R-880 does this well.


Better than most.


Also it blends well with other thicker reverbs(like an EMT 250 or a 224XL) or colored delays(PCM 42 and DMX 1580).


So you can do complicated layers and it won't make the vocal washy and hollow.

Sooo, you might have the 480L on the lead vocal and the R-880 on BG vox?
Two totally different verbs?

If I got that right, very interesting. I LOVE learning this stuff...sorry to sound so rookie, but I'd rather be humble and learn than pretend and never learn.

So, do I have that right?

-a

www.dirtyhalo.com

[djui5]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

but I'd rather be humble and learn than pretend and never learn.

Only if everyone thought this way.......

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Sooo, you might have the 480L on the lead vocal and the R-880 on BG vox?
Two totally different verbs?

If I got that right, very interesting. I LOVE learning this stuff...sorry to sound so rookie, but I'd rather be humble and learn than pretend and never learn.

So, do I have that right?

-a

www.dirtyhalo.com

Almost.

I usually use 3-4 different at the same time.


But for a basic starting point yes.


These days though i tend to lean more towards a brighter front image and a softer side image so it would probably be the other way around R-880 on the lead and 480L on the sides.

[MJGreene Audio]

Every song is different and you mix to it.

Flippin Genius. I wish more people got that point!!!!

Another great quote from Thrillfactor!!!!

[Dirty Halo]

Would that same comment above apply to the AMS 16? Meaning the lead in center being softer and the 480L for the sides?

-a

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Would that same comment above apply to the AMS 16? Meaning the lead in center being softer and the 480L for the sides?

-a

It depends.
(I know my favorite saying).

But it really does.


The sound of todays modern music is a harder brighter center so more often than not you are gonna kinda lean into that direction.

More dry and upfront.

But in the end the production and the song are really the deciding factor.

I think what you have to start getting away from D.H. is the "i always put X on Y" etc.

I know when you are first starting out its hard not to.

Heck part of the missing ingredient is experience but that's only really gained through experimentation.

Basically trial and error.

That's how i learned.

I patched this unit on into that because either i wasn't happy with what i was getting, i was curious and wanted to see what happened or if i didn't make the client happy i would get canned.

I didn't have so and so super star engineer to ask and the one's that were around didn't want to talk about work but more like sports and life stuff.

It would frustrate me to no end but 20 years later i kinda understand what they were doing.

I can tell you to use this reverb on this sound and this chorus on the other, but if you haven't really tried it in the past it will be all swahilian.

And because you don't hear like me mentally in the end you may try it and it will probably not work.

What if i only use one side? Or i pan both sides off center? How are you supposed to know that?

Its better to develop your own way cause you can understand best how you got there and appreciate it.

When i listen to other engineers work that i admire i am not listening to the effects, compression, EQ's or panning.

I am usually thinking like man he nailed it, he really connected with the song and he got that feeling across.

All of other hows and how nots are secondary.

Its really because i know i will never hear internally how that person does.

Different life experiences, what you were influenced by growing up and what your personal passions are determine your sonic signature.

And no two people on the planet will have each one the same.

Its impossible so why worry and agonize over it.

I rather put my mental and emotional efforts into what i do and if its my path that the masses will gravitate to it so be it.

And if not i know i gave every effort and i can move on.


I know but what does that have to do with the RMX 16?

Again the RMX 16 has a certain sonic signature.

If you've produced a song where the sonics are crucial to the arrangement that yeah its an option.

By that i mean you want people to say "wow cool vocal effects" or " wow i am swimming with the vocals".

If its the opposite where its simple or agressive or intimate than it wouldn't be my first choice.

Also to make it fit you will probably have to "dumb it down".

This goes especially for the Ambience program which is used a lot on vocals.

And yeah i would use it more for a lead(ballad) or an ambient tune.

For background vocals i would have to see if it works.

Hope this helps some.

[strauss]

Thrill, I hope a publisher would offer you lots of money to write a book!
Always love to read your stuff on mixing

[Dirty Halo]

Thank you for the info, but more, thank you for your time and consideration in your response.

I totally get the rationale and reasoning...although I may still ask, what do YOU think, just out of admiration or reality check!

Peace & appreciateion,

Andrews

www.dirtyhalo.com

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Thank you for the info, but more, thank you for your time and consideration in your response.

I totally get the rationale and reasoning...although I may still ask, what do YOU think, just out of admiration or reality check!

Peace & appreciateion,

Andrews

www.dirtyhalo.com

Its cool...just trying to help to keep things in perspective...and to hopefully keep things unique.

And i still think instead of buying an RMX 16 pick up some different delays, an Altiverb plug, an SP2016 and a DPS-V77.

That's if you got a couple of H3000's around if not pick up these as well.

You should get a lot of mileage from these.

Basically the bread and butter you see at most of the big studios.

[raal]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

And i still think instead of buying an RMX 16 pick up some different delays, an Altiverb plug, an SP2016 and a DPS-V77.

thanks for your posts thrill - this forum is amazing thanks to people like you... if you ever do write that book i'll be buying it.

but what do you have against the RMX 16? i know they're pretty much a one trick pony, have never thought of it as a voice reverb, but i sure like it on snare.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by raal

but what do you have against the RMX 16? i know they're pretty much a one trick pony, have never thought of it as a voice reverb, but i sure like it on snare.

Raal i have nothing against it.

Its just not as versatile as the others.

Its a 3 trick pony- the occasional vocals, snares sometimes or weird ambience effects.

I was just thinking since he has a character reverb(480L), having other units that are super all arounders can fill out the mix pallete.

The Sony DPS-V77 to me is a must have at any studio.

Same goes for the H3000's.

And if the 480L is a wrong starting point for a vocal the Eventide SP2016 is probably a real good one.

The Altiverb is already proving to be a necessary plug for the convolution type stuf(Cello rooms, EMT 250, EMT 140 plates). I think its the one plug in can't live with out these days.

And if he gets a bunch of character delays(PCM 42's, SDE 3000's, DMX 1580's., Yamaha D5000, Sony D7's etc) he'll be able to do anything.

Than its all up to his skills.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by strauss

Thrill, I hope a publisher would offer you lots of money to write a book!

Only if he promises to single space.....

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by djui5

Only if he promises to single space.....

[djui5]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

just givin you a hard time

[raal]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

The Altiverb is already proving to be a necessary plug for the convolution type stuf(Cello rooms, EMT 250, EMT 140 plates). I t hink its the one plug i can't live with out these days.

is the 250 sample convincing? haven't bothered with convolution verbs but i guess it's time to do a search. thanks thrill.

[Dirty Halo]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

I would put the top 10 digital reverb hall of fame like this (again my own opinion):

1) EMT250

2) Lexicon 480L

3) AMS RMX16

4) Quantec QRS

5) Eventide SP 2016

6) Lexicon 224XL

7) TC M5000

8) Roland R-880

9) PCM 70

10) a tie between KT780 and Sony DPS V-77(R7)

Honorable mention goes to Yamaha Rev1(rev 5 and rev7), EMT 251 the Ursa Major Space station, Yamaha SPX90(990 as well), Eventide H3000,Alesis Midiverb and Sony DRE-S77.

The TC M6000 is a little too new.

Love this list, I can see why you'd have the Lexicon 224 and 480L on the same list with a very different 224 grainy woody versus "that" 480L sound, but what do you like or feel is unique about the Lexicon PCM 70 that also puts it on that list?

Love to know your opinion or thinking behind this.

Thanks,

Andrews

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Love this list, I can see why you'd have the Lexicon 224 and 480L on the same list with a very different 224 grainy woody versus "that" 480L sound, but what do you like or feel is unique about the Lexicon PCM 70 that also puts it on that list?

Love to know your opinion or thinking behind this.

Thanks,

Andrews

Hi Andrews,


I based the list on 3 things:

1) Sound

2) Experience

3) Opinions of other guys i respect and trust


I was thinking really of the last 30 years in music and how much these units had infiltrated and influenced how records are made.

For years it was rooms and real plates.

Then spring reverbs began to "spring" up.


And finally in the 70's with the technology starting to become available the advent of digital reverbs.

Its funny even though the technology has advanced in leaps and bounds its the older units with their limited technology and bandwith that still reign supreme.

Look at the 480L and 224XL on Ebay.

They have steadily climbed up through the years.

And EMT 250 still costs about what you would pay for a good used car.


The PCM 70 made the list because its been used on so many records and still to this day.