Mixer with post fader inserts

[AllBread]

Can't understand why you would want this - most consoles have an input gain/trim (before the insert) and a fader after so you can gain stage things however you want so if you want to drive the gear on your inserts harder you can do so with the input gain and bring it to the right level in the mix with the fader.

What would the advantage be of having the insert post fader?

Signed,
Confused in Colorado

[Herc]

Originally Posted by Frantz

Hello,

There doesn't seem to be many. I'm looking for an mid level analog board with post fader inserts positioned before the sends. Or, one that can easily modded to have this.
Any ideas?

Can't you just take a direct out from the channel (post fader) and insert it into an adjacent channel?

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Frantz

Hello,

There doesn't seem to be many. I'm looking for an mid level analog board with post fader inserts positioned before the sends. Or, one that can easily modded to have this.
Any ideas?

Many if not most consoles of any value can be modded either way. There are a lot of possible mods for a lot of consoles, but you have to ask.

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by AllBread

Can't understand why you would want this - most consoles have an input gain/trim (before the insert) and a fader after so you can gain stage things however you want so if you want to drive the gear on your inserts harder you can do so with the input gain and bring it to the right level in the mix with the fader.

What would the advantage be of having the insert post fader?

Signed,
Confused in Colorado

Hi,

I am exploring adding an automation package controlled by the DAW.Optimally it has to be inserted post fader to not have any of the drawbacks that comes with this kind of add-on.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Frantz

Hi,

I am exploring adding an automation package controlled by the DAW.Optimally it has to be inserted post fader to not have any of the drawbacks that comes with this kind of add-on.

So therefore you want it to be post insert too, surely? otherwise you're riding "into" the inserts, in which case you might as well do things in the DAW.

You also want the automation system to be post processing but pre fader - because otherwise your post-fade sends won't be post fade anymore.

This sort of "add on" automation thing usually wants to be post processing, but pre send, so most desks with a switchable insert point pre/post EQ will work.

Or am I missing something? I don't see why you'd want to do rides post fader.

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

So therefore you want it to be post insert too, surely? otherwise you're riding "into" the inserts, in which case you might as well do things in the DAW.

You also want the automation system to be post processing but pre fader - because otherwise your post-fade sends won't be post fade anymore.

This sort of "add on" automation thing usually wants to be post processing, but pre send, so most desks with a switchable insert point pre/post EQ will work.

Or am I missing something? I don't see why you'd want to do rides post fader.

Yes it has to be post insert if we are talking about [pre fader inserts]. That way the outboard gear will use the pre fader inserts and the automation will use the post fader inserts.Ideally the post fader insert would be after the fader but before the post fader send point.

[Blaine Misner]

Old MCI 500 series have an insert point before and after the EQ, but i can't readily recall anything with the insert point post send or post fader

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Frantz

Yes it has to be post insert if we are talking about [pre fader inserts]. That way the outboard gear will use the pre fader inserts and the automation will use the post fader inserts.Ideally the post fader insert would be after the fader but before the post fader send point.

Right. No desks has "post fader inserts" to my knowledge - oh, the G-series has a post master fader insert point.

What in your eyes is the difference between having an insert point pre fader but post processing, and post fader but pre post-fade-sends?

Also - what is the difference between having the automation post processing, but on the same insert as the outboard gear? unless you're doing huge gain boosts, it's not going to affect any post insert EQ or fader rides..

[Spiritworks]

couldn't one use normal insert send to processor input, then processor output to automation VCA before returning to insert return?

[malice]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Right. No desks has "post fader inserts" to my knowledge

I wonder why no designer thought of that ?

Can somebody point me to the high end forum please ?



malice

[Magnus Lindberg]

I assume you are talking about Sum.Mation?
Just wire it to the patch bay and then go from the OB comp to Sum.mation and back to the ins ret.

/m

[jtienhaara]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Right. No desks has "post fader inserts" to my knowledge - oh, the G-series has a post master fader insert point.

Lots of older desks have pre and post fader inserts. The Peavey AMR Production series does. Neve broadcast consoles have them, and generally I would be surprised to NOT find them in older professional consoles.

I think the OP's idea is to use pre fader inserts for dynamics and post fader inserts (without actually using the fader) for outboard automation before going back into the console mix buses. Mackie Ultramix and that sort of thing have been used in this way. The direct outs would be fine too except you still need to get the faded signals back into the console to route to the mixing buses -- thus the need for inserts.

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Right. No desks has "post fader inserts" to my knowledge - oh, the G-series has a post master fader insert point.

I believe Peavey had a studio board with post fader inserts.

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

What in your eyes is the difference between having an insert point pre fader but post processing, and post fader but pre post-fade-sends?

The difference is if the automation happens pre fader via an insert you lose the "pre fader effect " at the console when automating. The automated signal will
always feed the sends. If I tap the pre fader signal from ITB then it will not have any outboard processing.

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Also - what is the difference between having the automation post processing, but on the same insert as the outboard gear? unless you're doing huge gain boosts, it's not going to affect any post insert EQ or fader rides..

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by jtienhaara

Lots of older desks have pre and post fader inserts. The Peavey AMR Production series does. Neve broadcast consoles have them, and generally I would be surprised to NOT find them in older professional consoles.

I think the OP's idea is to use pre fader inserts for dynamics and post fader inserts (without actually using the fader) for outboard automation before going back into the console mix buses. Mackie Ultramix and that sort of thing have been used in this way. The direct outs would be fine too except you still need to get the faded signals back into the console to route to the mixing buses -- thus the need for inserts.

Exactly.

[Dan]

Still, I have a hard time imagining a board, and an automation system that would make this workflow worthwhile. I like my signal path short, though. It's a preference thing, but I'd either mix in the box, or get a shadow mix system...Maybe Flying Faders 2 if I were really flush with clients.

It's the two insert points that throws me, I can't recall seeing a board with that. There's usually just one that can be moved to different points in the signal flow. I mean, of course you could have a tech add that, but you'd spend more on that than getting a moving fader automation system.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by jtienhaara

Lots of older desks have pre and post fader inserts. The Peavey AMR Production series does. Neve broadcast consoles have them, and generally I would be surprised to NOT find them in older professional consoles.

There's always the exception that tests the rule. It's not a common thing though. I've used a fair few older pro consoles (Neve 80 series forward maybe? EMI TG series, other broadcast neves and so on) and whilst I might have seen them once or twice, it's not something that sticks in the mind.

Originally Posted by jtienhaara

I think the OP's idea is to use pre fader inserts for dynamics and post fader inserts (without actually using the fader) for outboard automation before going back into the console mix buses. Mackie Ultramix and that sort of thing have been used in this way. The direct outs would be fine too except you still need to get the faded signals back into the console to route to the mixing buses -- thus the need for inserts.

Patching round the fader...yep, some do that with the SSL mixbuss fader.

Originally Posted by Frantz

The difference is if the automation happens pre fader via an insert you lose the "pre fader effect " at the console when automating. The automated signal will
always feed the sends. If I tap the pre fader signal from ITB then it will not have any outboard processing.

Yes - that is true. Didn't think of that. It might then be one of the compromises you have to make to use a system in this way.

I'd prefer to compromise on routing and use the desk of my choice, instead of compromising my desk choice to one of a few options that may not sound that great (I don't know that anyone's ever wet their pants over the opportunity to sum their tracks through a Peavey console).

Short answer - it's not common at all.

With enough groups, you could float the channels through the groups, have the automation on the group outputs, then return into another set of channels (or a summing amp) and monitor that. Fiddly system though.

Personally I think I'd ditch the pre-fade sends. How many times do you need to pre-fade send that can't be worked round with a parallel, or printing the processed track and doing it ITB? Then I wouldn't have this dilemma.

Originally Posted by Frantz

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

I wasn't thinking about pre-fade sends here. I wasn't realising why you'd want to automate post fader (and in fact, you don't need to - you just want to automate post send).

[jordanvoth]

If I understand this right,
Wouldn't a really good sounding summing box and outboard work?

A lot of people want the inserts pre fader to avoid riding things too hard into their outboard. Which is why the Greiner Sum.mation is going to be a huge product for a lot of the smaller high end project studios.

Maybe get a Euphonix controller, patch your outboard between your DAW and your summing mixer and away you go.

[jtienhaara]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I'd prefer to compromise on routing and use the desk of my choice, instead of compromising my desk choice to one of a few options that may not sound that great (I don't know that anyone's ever wet their pants over the opportunity to sum their tracks through a Peavey console).

Me.

Mind you it's dubious I belong in the High End forum, being a basement caveman recordist and all. But convenience and routing are critically important to me. Bland patchbays and a fairly bland console for its routing power (though also its longevity and ease of maintenance) are high on my list of "must haves" after struggling for the past few years with too many compressors and patchbays and not enough console. Also I do have some half decent Tonelux, Sebatron and Urei preamps to choose from, so the "sound" of the console was of much less import to me than "something I can afford which will route the way I want to work". But yeah, I went well out of my way to buy a Peavey AMR Production console because it is such a routing dream.

You're right about older consoles, my mistake -- it's not usually BOTH pre and post faders it's usually EITHER -- with a switch.

Cheers psycho monkey!

Johann

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by jtienhaara

You're right about older consoles, my mistake -- it's not usually BOTH pre and post faders it's usually EITHER -- with a switch.

Actually, I think it's usually pre or post processing (channel EQ/dyn) with a switch - that's definitely how the SSL works, Neve VR is more limited I think.

[jtienhaara]

Originally Posted by jordanvoth

Wouldn't a really good sounding summing box and outboard work?

Depends on your workflow. I prolly shouldn't speak for him but it sounds to me like Frantz is working mainly in the analog world -- with analog "plugins" (compressors, effects, maybe a tape machine, etc). Summing boxes do analog "summing" but not analog "routing".

You can add analog routing with patchbays and mults and so on, or you can do the whole "plug-outs" thing with latency compensation and do the routing in a computer. But ultimately those approaches will limit your routing freedom, at least in the analog world. Being able to send a signal out to a compressor input, and mult it to another console channel to EQ it and send the EQ'ed signal to the compressor sidechain in, is doable with a console. Without one it's a sheer nightmare...

Believe me, I spent the last 4 years trying to live with essentially a summing box and a slew of patchbays and a computer. No more of that for me!

But yeah depends on your approach / tastes. If you prefer using a mouse, then a big console is going to be a total waste of space and knobs, and a summing box will sound better than any console a mortal man's budget can buy.

Cheers!

Johann

[jtienhaara]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Actually, I think it's usually pre or post processing (channel EQ/dyn) with a switch - that's definitely how the SSL works, Neve VR is more limited I think.

Ugggh right again. Maybe it's the Aux sends I'm thinking of (pre/post fader)?? Or maybe I'm just out to lunch, pre/post fader vs. pre/post EQ was never a really an important consideration in my choice. Though the fellow I bought the AMR console from mentioned using post fader sends to lower the heat on his API mic pre outs, before sending the signal to certain other gear. Smart use of the tool IMHO.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by jtienhaara

Ugggh right again. Maybe it's the Aux sends I'm thinking of (pre/post fader)?? Or maybe I'm just out to lunch, pre/post fader vs. pre/post EQ was never a really an important consideration in my choice. Though the fellow I bought the AMR console from mentioned using post fader sends to lower the heat on his API mic pre outs, before sending the signal to certain other gear. Smart use of the tool IMHO.

Auxes are usually switchable pre/post fader yes.

It's very common practice to run outboard preamps back into the console, and sending to tape from the small faders - lets you use them as level controls, plus I always find it easier to grab an output there rather than finding the specific preamp, in the heat of battle!

[jtienhaara]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I always find it easier to grab an output there rather than finding the specific preamp, in the heat of battle!

Fortunately for me I'm not under any budget/time restrictions in my basement, so there's usually not much battle. And just about everything I do at a console or patchbay forces me to sit and ponder for a moment, because I've forgotten how everything works since the last time I patched or routed anything! I'm jealous of your familiarity with consoles, even just reading the manual for an SSL console makes me dizzy. (Though I would love that level of routing flexibility!)

But yeah, if I was making money from a console, it would be a matter of balancing a lot of factors -- sound, routing, cost, size, ... Same as for a home recordist but all on a much bigger scale.


So Frantz what's the automation package you're looking into?

[salomonander]

Originally Posted by Frantz

Hello,

There doesn't seem to be many. I'm looking for an mid level analog board with post fader inserts positioned before the sends. Or, one that can easily modded to have this.
Any ideas?

sounds like this is a rather easy mod to any desk. if you plan on integrating an automation system into an analog desk this should be one of the smaller problems. i suggest a moderator moves this to the geekslutz forum. you will get a lot more useful information on there. also try groupdiy - the high end certainly is the wrong place for this sort of question.

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by jtienhaara

Fortunately for me I'm not under any budget/time restrictions in my basement, so there's usually not much battle. And just about everything I do at a console or patchbay forces me to sit and ponder for a moment, because I've forgotten how everything works since the last time I patched or routed anything! I'm jealous of your familiarity with consoles, even just reading the manual for an SSL console makes me dizzy. (Though I would love that level of routing flexibility!)

But yeah, if I was making money from a console, it would be a matter of balancing a lot of factors -- sound, routing, cost, size, ... Same as for a home recordist but all on a much bigger scale.


So Frantz what's the automation package you're looking into?

I'm intrigued by the Sum.Mation but it has limitations that I'm trying to work around. That's why the search for the console.


Here is the problem I have with the state of the mid-size studio setups: workflow.

Maybe I'm picky but I prefer to track with a board. Cue mixes are faster, mixing is more immediate,outboard without extra DA/AD etc. A console is great for summing and routing. Automation is the tricky part.There a a lot of great sounding consoles with no auto.For ITB I prefer a controller. That means 2 sets of faders if a console is involved. This has always bothered me. Ergonomics is a BIG deal. I considered a Flying Fader system but the added cost made me look into summing boxes and DAW controller. The drawbacks of that workflow is what led me to hold off until I saw the Sum.Mation. The only way I can think of to make it work without compromise is to insert it post fader. OR ... I asked if they would consider adding pans to the Sum.Mation but that doesn't seem likely based on the response.

I didn't seriously consider the Peavey AMR because in my experience I always found it to have more noise than signal. How quiet is yours jtienhaara?

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by salomonander

sounds like this is a rather easy mod to any desk. if you plan on integrating an automation system into an analog desk this should be one of the smaller problems. i suggest a moderator moves this to the geekslutz forum. you will get a lot more useful information on there. also try groupdiy - the high end certainly is the wrong place for this sort of question.

Sorry. I thought you guys would at least understand the problem! Never thought about the geekslutz forum.

[salomonander]

Originally Posted by Frantz

Sorry. I thought you guys would at least understand the problem! Never thought about the geekslutz forum.

there are some really good techs on there. highend is more for rich producers :-)

[Bassmankr]

The AMR desks have on each input channel module (left part of the desk) balanced via 1/4" TRS jacks a Pre Send, a Pre Return (both of which are pre EQ section and pre fader), a Post Send, and a Post Return (both of which are post EQ section and post fader). Each moniter module (right part of the desk) have balanced via 1/4" TRS jacks a Pre Patch Send, and a Pre Patch Return (both of which are pre fader). Those would typically be used for outboard on the submix channels. The master module has balanced via 1/4" TRS jacks a Left Bus Send, a Left Bus Return, a Right Bus Send, and a Right Bus Return (all of which are pre fader). The master module has both a left and right 2 bus faders. Hope that gives you the info you need.

As for noise the AMR's can mix a lot of channels to the 2 bus which is a concern for all mixers (more channels equals more to be careful with). The AMR 2400 desk mixes 108 channels to the 2 bus, then add the 8 auxes, then add another 6 inputs for the 2 track A - 2 track B - CD - inputs, then add the Returns on the 2 bus. Grand total, 124 inputs can be routed to the 2 bus. Common practice is you mute all unused inputs and for the 48 inputs of the upper and lower moniter sections (right part of desk) you hard pan left / right until you use them as a mono input. Some owners have reported simply unplugging the midi control center (now useless with modern DAWs) found on the master module was an improvement too.

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

The AMR desks have on each input channel module (left part of the desk) balanced via 1/4" TRS jacks a Pre Send, a Pre Return (both of which are pre EQ section and pre fader), a Post Send, and a Post Return (both of which are post EQ section and post fader). Each moniter module (right part of the desk) have balanced via 1/4" TRS jacks a Pre Patch Send, and a Pre Patch Return (both of which are pre fader). Those would typically be used for outboard on the submix channels. The master module has balanced via 1/4" TRS jacks a Left Bus Send, a Left Bus Return, a Right Bus Send, and a Right Bus Return (all of which are pre fader). The master module has both a left and right 2 bus faders. Hope that gives you the info you need.

Thanks. I'll look at the schematics. Maybe it can be modded with better pres?