Mixer with post fader inserts

[Telefunk]

The Harrison 32-series desk has two insert points AND EVERYTHING in the channel strip is connected together via FET card, that can be programmed (meaning:modded) anyway you like.

In other words, you can put those two insert points anywhere in the signal path. Both of them BEFORE the fader...

[Bassmankr]

You can find the AMR schematics in the manual, here is a link for that.

Peavey AMR 2400 1600 800 Production Series Mixer Manual | Facebook

Chance are someones got to have an AMR in Nashville for you to checkout to see if it should be on your further research list.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by jtienhaara

Fortunately for me I'm not under any budget/time restrictions in my basement, so there's usually not much battle. And just about everything I do at a console or patchbay forces me to sit and ponder for a moment, because I've forgotten how everything works since the last time I patched or routed anything! I'm jealous of your familiarity with consoles, even just reading the manual for an SSL console makes me dizzy. (Though I would love that level of routing flexibility!)

But yeah, if I was making money from a console, it would be a matter of balancing a lot of factors -- sound, routing, cost, size, ... Same as for a home recordist but all on a much bigger scale.

I'm just really lucky I've had the opportunity to work on lots of different systems! they're not that different once you learn one well...

Originally Posted by Frantz

I'm intrigued by the Sum.Mation but it has limitations that I'm trying to work around. That's why the search for the console.


Here is the problem I have with the state of the mid-size studio setups: workflow.

Maybe I'm picky but I prefer to track with a board. Cue mixes are faster, mixing is more immediate,outboard without extra DA/AD etc. A console is great for summing and routing. Automation is the tricky part.There a a lot of great sounding consoles with no auto.For ITB I prefer a controller. That means 2 sets of faders if a console is involved. This has always bothered me. Ergonomics is a BIG deal. I considered a Flying Fader system but the added cost made me look into summing boxes and DAW controller. The drawbacks of that workflow is what led me to hold off until I saw the Sum.Mation. The only way I can think of to make it work without compromise is to insert it post fader. OR ... I asked if they would consider adding pans to the Sum.Mation but that doesn't seem likely based on the response.

I didn't seriously consider the Peavey AMR because in my experience I always found it to have more noise than signal. How quiet is yours jtienhaara?

I just find this whole thing a little confusing. At the price point you're looking at, with the features you want, you HAVE to make compromises. Fader automation (at least - fader automation that's reliable) is expensive. Hence the reason most small desks don't have it.

You say you're picky - fair play, you should be!

But why you should then seriously consider limiting your console selection to one prosumer unit is slightly beyond me! Whilst I also value ergonomics, no one "hears" how easy your studio is to work in, so sound should really come first, shouldn't it?

I would say that on the occasions when you need a pre-fader send, doing it ITB is a small compromise for the amount of options it opens up regarding desk choices (ie - just about everything ever made with an insert point).

Alternately - split it in two. Get a great sounding sidecar for tracking, and mix ITB using hardware inserts and/or a summing amp with a controller. Might make for a slightly odd looking studio, but lots of places have a sidecar...on the side! I'd love this setup with a neve Melbourne or something....

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by Frantz

I'm intrigued by the Sum.Mation but it has limitations that I'm trying to work around. That's why the search for the console...

...The only way I can think of to make it work without compromise is to insert it post fader. OR ... I asked if they would consider adding pans to the Sum.Mation but that doesn't seem likely based on the response.

Hi Frantz - I'm not sure I understand your work flow and the problem/limitation you're running into. Most users are placing sum.mation at the end of their insert chain on their console (pre-fader of course), and leaving the faders at unity. Pre-fader sends stay pre-automation; post-fader sends and assigns stay post-automation. I must be missing some important detail in your setup. School me like I'm 6 years old we'll figure it out!

[jtienhaara]

For whatever it's worth (not much in the High End forum, I grant you) the Peavey AMR Production series is definitely a professional console, not remotely prosumer. That's not to say it's High End -- but it is definitely not in the realm of Tofts Mackies Soundcrafts A+Hs etc. Even if you think it doesn't sound as good as an XYZ. It is modular, well engineered and designed by a well respected architect (John Roberts) for long term professional use, not for use by a hobbyist like me. But to give you an idea of what it was up against, I was looking for an Amek M2500, a Neve broadcast console or a Raindirk LN1 (way outside my price range). I haven't put the Production 1600 to any serious tests yet but after having played around with it and -- important to a professional console -- tested and fixed a few channel problems -- so far I have no regrets at all (though I do have burnt fingers from spending my evenings for the past few weeks re-soldering my patchbays, and still I've got 600 more points to re-solder, ugggh!).

Bassmankr and musiclabnyc (former owner of my console, which I am still in the process of installing) as well as several other very helpful gearslutz know a LOT about the Production series console, not to mention how to cost effectively automate it. Contact them, they're awesome resources with pro studios that do/did centre around this particular console.

As to the more general "console automation is expensive" notion, that may or may not change in coming years. The second hand console market just bottomed out. The second hand automation market may or may not follow suit. Time will tell... You should definitely check out some of the posts on old school fader automation that you might be considering, though. It sounds to me like maintaining an old Windoze computer for automation would be more painful (to me at least) than using something that sounds like shit like a Mackie Ultramix. At least the computer with the Mackie software doesn't have to be maintained pre-USB era.

Of course there are also the second hand consoles which have built-in automation. Various Otari, Euphonix and Amek models have lovers and haters. Those models might be worth looking at, if you haven't considered them already. I'm sure there were others that I wasn't interested in but might be worthwhile to you, too.

But honestly, if you're trying to get things done quickly for now until you can afford to upgrade to a "High End approved" system -- or until you decide you don't even want/need one! -- there are others in your boat, it's just a matter of talking to the folks in the same boat. And yeah, the High End forum might not be the right boat to look for your particular crew, Frantz.

Or maybe it is the right forum and I'm just hijacking your thread.

In any case good luck with whatever route you choose, and post some photos when you've got your eventual setup!

Johann

[jtienhaara]

Originally Posted by juniorhifikit

Hi Frantz...I must be missing some important detail in your setup. School me like I'm 6 years old we'll figure it out!

Awesome, please chat here in the thread. I'm only 2 and 3/4 years old, and I love it when designers get involved in problem solving!

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by jtienhaara

For whatever it's worth (not much in the High End forum, I grant you) the Peavey AMR Production series is definitely a professional console, not remotely prosumer. That's not to say it's High End -- but it is definitely not in the realm of Tofts Mackies Soundcrafts A+Hs etc. Even if you think it doesn't sound as good as an XYZ. It is modular, well engineered and designed by a well respected architect (John Roberts) for long term professional use, not for use by a hobbyist like me. But to give you an idea of what it was up against, I was looking for an Amek M2500, a Neve broadcast console or a Raindirk LN1 (way outside my price range). I haven't put the Production 1600 to any serious tests yet but after having played around with it and -- important to a professional console -- tested and fixed a few channel problems -- so far I have no regrets at all (though I do have burnt fingers from spending my evenings for the past few weeks re-soldering my patchbays, and still I've got 600 more points to re-solder, ugggh!).

That's a fair call - I have no hands on experience with the console. I was just pointing out that restricting your choices to one model because of one features is a big step to make.

Originally Posted by jtienhaara

As to the more general "console automation is expensive" notion, that may or may not change in coming years. The second hand console market just bottomed out. The second hand automation market may or may not follow suit. Time will tell... You should definitely check out some of the posts on old school fader automation that you might be considering, though. It sounds to me like maintaining an old Windoze computer for automation would be more painful (to me at least) than using something that sounds like shit like a Mackie Ultramix. At least the computer with the Mackie software doesn't have to be maintained pre-USB era.

Console automation is always going to be expensive, relatively speaking. It needs precision engineered parts, controlled by some form of custom control system. Even if you replace the computer with a DAW running aux channels as "dummy faders", you've still got the interface to engineer, and it's not going to sell in massive quantities - which means it's a niche product, which means it's going to be relatively expensive. Economies of scale. the key term is "relative" - some parts will come down in price, but precision engineered faders won't.

[Bassmankr]

psycho_monkey is right in that you should not limit yourself to just one console at this stage of the game. Study many, put together a short list of canidates, audition those desks in person if possible, and then look for the deal.

The AMR's are not prosumer. The AMR 2400 cost over $20k new so not exactly an impulse item at Guitar Center. Of course they are no Neve or SSL given their price point but are a solid desk you can do some good work on. Just a few people that made them work for them were Micheal Bolton, Stepenwolf, Don Was did Bonnie Raitt's comeback Grammy winning album on one, and Aaliyah's "One in a Million" album (2 mil sold in US / 8 mil sold worldwide). So if you go with an AMR, it will not hold you back.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

The AMR's are not prosumer. The AMR 2400 cost over $20k new so not exactly an impulse item at Guitar Center. Of course they are no Neve or SSL given their price point but are a solid desk you can do some good work on. Just a few people that made them work for them were Micheal Bolton, Stepenwolf, Don Was did Bonnie Raitt's comeback Grammy winning album on one, and Aaliyah's "One in a Million" album (2 mil sold in US / 8 mil sold worldwide). So if you go with an AMR, it will not hold you back.

Hehe I'd keep quiet on the Michael Bolton reference...don't want to put the guy off now!

Prosumer was harsh of course, I can see that now.

Of course, track record is no guarantee of quality purchase - prodigy mixing on Mackie 32:8, that bloody James Taylor album everyone likes to reference as having been done on an 02R etc...

I'd still put up with the "no pre fade board sends" and have a better choice of consoles.

[Bassmankr]

Well at it's used price the AMR is one of the better choices at that price point. Spend more money and other choices are better as there are a number of good originally priced $80K desks available for under $10k now. The AMR is good enough that you can't use it as an excuse for not producing a good product.

Again consider all the available desks within your budget. With desks there is usually more than one way to skin a cat so understanding it's routing options and signal flow is important to study when making up your short list to further investigate. So even at first if it looks like a particular desk may not be able to do something, with creative routing it may in fact accomplish the job.

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by Telefunk

The Harrison 32-series desk has two insert points AND EVERYTHING in the channel strip is connected together via FET card, that can be programmed (meaning:modded) anyway you like.

In other words, you can put those two insert points anywhere in the signal path. Both of them BEFORE the fader...

Wow that's awesome. I'll definitely check it out. I like Harrison.

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I'm just really lucky I've had the opportunity to work on lots of different systems! they're not that different once you learn one well...



I just find this whole thing a little confusing. At the price point you're looking at, with the features you want, you HAVE to make compromises. Fader automation (at least - fader automation that's reliable) is expensive. Hence the reason most small desks don't have it.

You say you're picky - fair play, you should be!

But why you should then seriously consider limiting your console selection to one prosumer unit is slightly beyond me! Whilst I also value ergonomics, no one "hears" how easy your studio is to work in, so sound should really come first, shouldn't it?

I would say that on the occasions when you need a pre-fader send, doing it ITB is a small compromise for the amount of options it opens up regarding desk choices (ie - just about everything ever made with an insert point).

Alternately - split it in two. Get a great sounding sidecar for tracking, and mix ITB using hardware inserts and/or a summing amp with a controller. Might make for a slightly odd looking studio, but lots of places have a sidecar...on the side! I'd love this setup with a neve Melbourne or something....

Excellent points all around. Sound is the most important thing and I don't want to limit my choices. I'm not on a crusade and I can live with the workarounds.

Originally Posted by juniorhifikit

Hi Frantz - I'm not sure I understand your work flow and the problem/limitation you're running into. Most users are placing sum.mation at the end of their insert chain on their console (pre-fader of course), and leaving the faders at unity. Pre-fader sends stay pre-automation; post-fader sends and assigns stay post-automation. I must be missing some important detail in your setup. School me like I'm 6 years old we'll figure it out!

Hey Junior thanks for your interest. The Sum.Mation is not the problem. The limitation is at the console. You seemingly have a great product that I may end up getting. FWIW the pre-fader sends can't be pre-automation because the insert returns are always(I think) pre-pre-fader sends. That means no "pre-fader effect" on automated channels even when the pre-fader button is engaged. Not the end of the world really.

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

Well at it's used price the AMR is one of the better choices at that price point. Spend more money and other choices are better as there are a number of good originally priced $80K desks available for under $10k now. The AMR is good enough that you can't use it as an excuse for not producing a good product.

Again consider all the available desks within your budget. With desks there is usually more than one way to skin a cat so understanding it's routing options and signal flow is important to study when making up your short list to further investigate. So even at first if it looks like a particular desk may not be able to do something, with creative routing it may in fact accomplish the job.

Thanks Bassmankr. The AMR is worth a revisit. I thought the one I worked on long ago was super noisy but it could have been the way it was being pushed.


Over the weekend I think I came up with a workaround that would satisfy me. It would require an in-line board with inserts on both the channel and monitor path. Surely there must be plenty of those?

[Bassmankr]

Depends on the particular in-line desk you are looking at. Some in-lines share one set of assignable inserts for the modular input strip.

[jtienhaara]

Out of curiosity, why inline? Space issues? Or preference? Or...?

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by jtienhaara

Out of curiosity, why inline? Space issues? Or preference? Or...?

Space and ergonomics mostly but a split console is not out of the question.if all the sends can float between each path that would be ideal. Off the top of my head I know Audient has a console like that.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

The harrison 950m might work if you need something smaller.

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

The harrison 950m might work if you need something smaller.

Great ergonomics but it's not an inline console and only has 1 insert point
(pre-fader).

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by Telefunk

The Harrison 32-series desk has two insert points AND EVERYTHING in the channel strip is connected together via FET card, that can be programmed (meaning:modded) anyway you like.

In other words, you can put those two insert points anywhere in the signal path. Both of them BEFORE the fader...

Any idea where I can find a manual for the 32c?

[sameal]

soundcraft's older desks may have such a thing.


but that's certainly not high end.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Frantz

Great ergonomics but it's not an inline console and only has 1 insert point
(pre-fader).

The manual says that it also has a post fader insert.

[Frantz]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

The manual says that it also has a post fader insert.

Straight from the manual:

"Insert Point
Line-level insertion point for an external device. The Insert is always driven and is pre fader and tone controls.
A separate post Fader and Tone controls, line level direct output is provided on each Mono Mic /
Line module."

The last sentence is confusing but it's describing a direct out. The block diagram confirms this. I was hoping this would be a second insert but it's not. Love the layout.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Frantz

Straight from the manual:

The last sentence is confusing but it's describing a direct out. The block diagram confirms this. I was hoping this would be a second insert but it's not. Love the layout.

It appears that I should have looked at the block diagram. The coma "...and Tone controls, line level direct ..." fooled me.

[Telefunk]

Originally Posted by Frantz

Any idea where I can find a manual for the 32c?

pm´d