500 series stuff underpowered?

[ionian]

Originally Posted by latestflavor

so if Apple started letting every PC manufacturer make and sell their own macs with a general set of guidelines, the end user would experience the same product they do today?

Probably, but for a more realistic price.

Regards,
Frank

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by latestflavor

not the same thing as letting any hack into the format.

so if Apple started letting every PC manufacturer make and sell their own macs with a general set of guidelines, the end user would experience the same product they do today?

really, any piece of gear that can affect the others does not interest me.

You're trying to diss a format across the board, but apparently wont use your own judgement to decide which 3rd party products to believe in or not.
You are not forced to install 'hack' 500 series modules in order to use the 500 series.
I'm sure some PC manufacturer could improve on Apple's products. Likewise, some 3rd party 500 series racks and modules are probably built better than API's.
The format is currently about about choice and portability.

[latestflavor]

Originally Posted by chrisso

The format is currently about about choice and portability.

and trust

[chrisso]

Yes, and I've found no reason to distrust the modules I've installed.
Again, no one is forcing you to buy a sub $500 module from a maker with no track record.
The API modules for example have been working in high-end studios for decades without issue.

[Matt Syson]

Hi
The problem so many around here have is that they do not or will not understand the difference between 'raw current capability' and 'output impedance' of power supplies.
They think that a power supply rated at 8 Amps which is poorly regulated is 'better' than one rated at 1.5 Amps that has a low output impedance and low noise.
A '500 series rack' can contain several modules which combined can 'consume' around 1.3 Amps total (actual numbers are specified in the VPR alliance notes). This means that they CANNOT draw more current than this (defined by the VPR 'rules'). Individual modules are not capable of drawing this order of current either because of internal limiting, or they simply melt / explode.
Any power supply AND CABLING that has a significant output impedance COULD encourage misbehaviour between modules although there should be a degree of 'tolerance' built into any decent design of module and in any case they should not rely on having a 'perfect' supply.
The supply voltage for these modules is +/ - 16 Volts (total 32). Some other gear using ICs typically may push supplies to 36 Volts total, which gives a meagre 1 - 2 dB or thereabouts of extra signal headroom.
Anyone who makes a 'poor' power supply is simply not trying. It is not rocket sciencs but simply the ability to read, understand and apply the 'application notes' of the IC power supply chips.
Matt S

[Enlightened Hand]

Idk about any significant sonic impact. But my conversations with a couple preamp designers yielded the stated opinion, by them, that the 500 format did indeed have less headroom than conventional rack mount gear of the same piece. And they said it was due to the power supply.

They also said it wasn't a deal breaker, but it meant that you might have to gain stage differently. I don't see it as a problem. It's definitely nothing that has held back thousands of users. But, given the choice and available real estate, I'd choose conventional rack mount gear over 500 series, all other things being equal, and not needing portability as a top priority.

[Matt Syson]

Hi
Since the 'loss of headroom' will be less than 2dB it is unlikely to be noticed as you should not normally be running that close to the 'limit'.
It is not the 'format' just the choice of supply voltage so if the 'full rack box' version uses the same supply (16+16 Volts) it will be the same 'headroom'.
Matt S

[Enlightened Hand]

Well, a LOT of people run their stuff to the limit on purpose. Also, the full rack mount versions of 500 series stuff often does have different power requirements. So it's a matter of specifics. Not a general "500 series stuff is worse" or an equally silly "You shouldn't be doing this or that" or "The rack mount stuff has the same power requirements". It all, as usual, just depends.

[voidar]

Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand

Well, a LOT of people run their stuff to the limit on purpose.

Well, then you'll get there faster

[roy_mattie]

Use your ears to test out these theories for yourself, not the say-so of so-and-so who read somewhere that this 'might' be the case. Also, this is not the first time this has been discussed / argued.... so use the 'Search' function!!

I can't speak to the voltage or PSU specs as that's outside my realm of experience or understanding, but my own personal experiences have led me to move away from the 500 series for mic pres.

Great concept, no doubt. I just found that the modules I had auditioned / bought weren't sounding as nice as their racked counterparts. However, I love the API stuff.

I'm just moving towards using my Lunchbox as more of a EQ / comp box instead of pres.

Personal choice based on personal experience.

[chrisso]

500 series is only partially about pre-amps anyway.
The 560 graphic and 550a eq are highly respected modules (underpowered or not).

[Jonathan@FPA]

Originally Posted by Matt Syson

Hi
The problem so many around here have is that they do not or will not understand the difference between 'raw current capability' and 'output impedance' of power supplies.
They think that a power supply rated at 8 Amps which is poorly regulated is 'better' than one rated at 1.5 Amps that has a low output impedance and low noise.
A '500 series rack' can contain several modules which combined can 'consume' around 1.3 Amps total (actual numbers are specified in the VPR alliance notes). This means that they CANNOT draw more current than this (defined by the VPR 'rules'). Individual modules are not capable of drawing this order of current either because of internal limiting, or they simply melt / explode.
Any power supply AND CABLING that has a significant output impedance COULD encourage misbehaviour between modules although there should be a degree of 'tolerance' built into any decent design of module and in any case they should not rely on having a 'perfect' supply.
The supply voltage for these modules is +/ - 16 Volts (total 32). Some other gear using ICs typically may push supplies to 36 Volts total, which gives a meagre 1 - 2 dB or thereabouts of extra signal headroom.
Anyone who makes a 'poor' power supply is simply not trying. It is not rocket sciencs but simply the ability to read, understand and apply the 'application notes' of the IC power supply chips.
Matt S

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Yes, and I've found no reason to distrust the modules I've installed.
Again, no one is forcing you to buy a sub $500 module from a maker with no track record.
The API modules for example have been working in high-end studios for decades without issue.

Exactly... For 45 years, too.