API drum sounds - what did I do?

[andychamp]

Mark VIII | Pete's Place Audio | Audio Products

[nickelironsteel]

whats the price for a 8 channel bucket?

[Twiggy]

Originally Posted by Trev@Circle

I have a 1608. When tracking I go all the way through the channel strip (rather than just routing through the preamp out) and use the fader to trim the output. Almost no matter how hard you hit it, it still sounds stunning!

Trev, no matter how hard...even if the O/L light comes on? When I'm tracking through my 512 I'm always eyeballing that VU meter to check its not clipping, should I be a little less concerned with it and start cranking?

[iangomes]

Originally Posted by Twiggy

Trev, no matter how hard...even if the O/L light comes on? When I'm tracking through my 512 I'm always eyeballing that VU meter to check its not clipping, should I be a little less concerned with it and start cranking?

Turn that shit up!

[jrod9900]

I have used attenuators on the output of a 512 and cranked it, meters are buried in red. Not saying this is always the sound you are going for, but it can definitely add distortion and degradation.

JROD

[Daedalus77]

I customarily cut drums with 512cs and BAE 312As (which are similar) using a Little Labs RedCloud patched in between the preamps and our Apogees.

I've had great results slamming the 512s into the red (NOT using the pad, which I think suffocates the tone) and bringing down the levels on the RedCloud's rotary faders.

Certainly, it's not a console. But it does provide a way of approaching that classic API "pushed preamp" sound. The RedCloud is wonderful: it's inexpensive and ruggedly-built; it has balanced connections and slightly-detented rotary faders. As far as I can tell it does nothing to the sound.

Some folks use in-line pads, but I think this solution is sonically better and more elegant.

Others will differ. Best of luck.

[Verve111]

Originally Posted by Daedalus77

I customarily cut drums with 512cs and BAE 312As (which are similar) using a Little Labs RedCloud patched in between the preamps and our Apogees.

I've had great results slamming the 512s into the red (NOT using the pad, which I think suffocates the tone) and bringing down the levels on the RedCloud's rotary faders.

Certainly, it's not a console. But it does provide a way of approaching that classic API "pushed preamp" sound. The RedCloud is wonderful: it's inexpensive and ruggedly-built; it has balanced connections and slightly-detented rotary faders. As far as I can tell it does nothing to the sound.

Some folks use in-line pads, but I think this solution is sonically better and more elegant.

Others will differ. Best of luck.

Great to hear thanks man. Seems like a very useful tool considering it's price point.

[jgimbel]

Originally Posted by Daedalus77

I customarily cut drums with 512cs and BAE 312As (which are similar) using a Little Labs RedCloud patched in between the preamps and our Apogees.

I've had great results slamming the 512s into the red (NOT using the pad, which I think suffocates the tone) and bringing down the levels on the RedCloud's rotary faders.

Certainly, it's not a console. But it does provide a way of approaching that classic API "pushed preamp" sound. The RedCloud is wonderful: it's inexpensive and ruggedly-built; it has balanced connections and slightly-detented rotary faders. As far as I can tell it does nothing to the sound.

Some folks use in-line pads, but I think this solution is sonically better and more elegant.

Others will differ. Best of luck.

Great post Daedalus77, very clear and covers exactly what a lot of folks want to know. The API 3124 is next on my list after my new converters next week, and it'd definitely be great to have all my attenuation in one box rather than a bunch of in-lines.

[paulnajar]

Hello Folks,
I'm enjoying this thread. I love my3124+ and may get another soon. I record drums regularly and do drive the 3124 quite hard for this at times but never so hard that the +18 light comes on.

My question is, is the sound you guys talk of include the +18 light coming on or not?

I use an ATTY by A Designs to attenuate after the pre and also a couple of the Shure A15A5 in lines for the same task before the signal hits my converters. Some opinions on that practise would be much appreciated as well.

Kind regards

[Flymax]

Part of the sound is he 2520 ...

[Trev@Circle]

Originally Posted by Twiggy

Trev, no matter how hard...even if the O/L light comes on? When I'm tracking through my 512 I'm always eyeballing that VU meter to check its not clipping, should I be a little less concerned with it and start cranking?

crank it on the way in Twiggy then attenuate the back end to hit your converters at a decent level. Let your ears tell you whether it sounds good, not your eyes!

[Daedalus77]

Originally Posted by paulnajar

My question is, is the sound you guys talk of include the +18 light coming on or not?

I use an ATTY by A Designs to attenuate after the pre and also a couple of the Shure A15A5 in lines for the same task before the signal hits my converters. Some opinions on that practise would be much appreciated as well.

I don't worry about the lights on preamps. I just listen. I DO, of course, worry about the lights on the converters, but avoiding those red lights is what the attenuators are there for.

Also: For what are you using the ATTY? Is the two-channel version or the rack-mount version? I found the two-channel version exhibited some inconsistency across the two (stereo) channels. And again, I think using an variable attenuator post-mic-pre (functioning like a console fader would) is preferable to using an in-line pads, like the Shures.

Just my two cents. Best of luck.

[Verve111]

Originally Posted by Flymax

Part of the sound is he 2520 ...

There must be an OpAmp thread somewhere on GS.

[drBill]

Yes standard "API thing". for digital, I'm liking the vp26/28's better. Easier to get exactly what you're talking about. Especially with the 28 which has the post pre fader stage to more closely match an api console.

[Seamus TM]

Originally Posted by Verve111

I had the opportunity to record drums through a mid 70's 1604 a few months back. It was the first time I had used a vintage API board.

Now that we're mixing I have noticed one tune in particular that the drums have this unbelievable richness and cut. The cymbols are soft, gorgeous and full.

Obviously there are tons of factors to why this might be the case, but I have a feeling I set the board differently on this tune and I'm not sure what I did. I used the same mics, same placements, same player, he used the same sticks and it was the same day as the rest of the tunes.

There's a lot more low level stuff in the drums as well. Great room reflections and a very nice stick attack sound and nothing is harsh.

No compression, no eq no nothing and they are simply gorgeous. All the faders are at 0 and nothing is panned. It's weird.

My hunch is that I unknowingly pushed the input gain and pulled the output fader down to compensate and got this great saturation. Is this a common technique for using an API to get drum sounds? I would love to recreate this somehow.

Thanks

Drummer, drums, room, mics, API, converters.. oh, and you.
So, yeah!
The API did have something to do with it!

[Mike Douaire]

Originally Posted by andychamp

On the current project I finally mustered up the courage to record kick, snare & toms pre-eq'd with a 560 (k) and some 550bs ( sn & toms).
AFTER mic choice & placement, of course.
The result didn't sound eq'd at all - even with some 9dB cuts & boosts - but rather more professional, more "right".
API & drums go together like PB&J!

560 on a kick is magical. I was so skeptical when i first started at this studio (it's one giant API fanboy club). When I finally heard that 560 on the kick (and bass) - i just didnt know what to do but smile. 550b's are lovely for sn and toms too.

Agreed - API and drums are just fantastic!

[glitchfactor]

So what's the difference between the attenuation knob on the CAPI VP26 and the output fader on the VP28? Aren't they basically doing the same thing?

-Justin

[Verve111]

Originally Posted by glitchfactor

So what's the difference between the attenuation knob on the CAPI VP26 and the output fader on the VP28? Aren't they basically doing the same thing?

-Justin

From what I understand the VP28 output fader is designed to more closely mimic a fader on an API console.

[nickelironsteel]

thats correct. i wish CAPI would sell those with a fader separately, i would buy 10 instantly to put after my 512c

[rockrecorder]

Unless I am mistaken, the Missing Link is doing exactly what you're looking for.

Classic Audio Products of Illinois

[glitchfactor]

But what does that mean? Electronically how is it different, and sound-wise how is it different?

Originally Posted by Verve111

From what I understand the VP28 output fader is designed to more closely mimic a fader on an API console.

[glitchfactor]

Originally Posted by glitchfactor

But what does that mean? Electronically how is it different, and sound-wise how is it different?

Ok, so I looked on Jeff's page. Here's what it says on the 26 vs 28:

"Our electrons leave the "VP26 section" and would typically go thru the t-pad and then out. Since there is no t-pad attenuator on the VP28, the signal heads to a stepped "Channel Fader". This 12 position Grayhill switch emulates the full throw fader from the console. There is 12dB of gain "in hand" at the fader giving us a total of 72dB for mic gain.

After the fader we have a two pushbutton HP filter array, implemented the same way as the console and as in the VC528. Left switch in, 40Hz, right switch in 80Hz, both in is 160Hz. I also carried over the -6dB/-12dB per octave switch from the VC528.

Then we are off to the 2nd 2520 gain stage and the 2nd and final EA2623-1. From the fader to the output is more or less the same signal path used in the VC528. So, the VP28 is a complete VP26 preamp with the 2nd half of the VC528 following the HPF from the 553F. A mouthful indeed. "

But what I'd like to know is why the switch from passive attenuation to the channel fader. Does it sound better? If so, in what way?

[drBill]

Originally Posted by glitchfactor

So what's the difference between the attenuation knob on the CAPI VP26 and the output fader on the VP28? Aren't they basically doing the same thing?

-Justin

No. The output on the vp26 is just passive attenuation. Wide open is passing unity from the input stage. Dialing it down is decreasing gain to your next link in the chain.

On the VP28, the output stage is the fader stage from an API. It is NOT passive - it has another 2520 style (your choice) of op amp and extra inter-stage transformer in it and can not only attenuate but can drive the gain as well. Kind of like having two modules in one. So you get the added option of turning down the input and driving the OUTPUT stage. A bit more subtle, but cool nonetheless. Even when driving the input and attenuating the output as with a vp26, it's a bit thicker sounding due to the extra electronics and transformer.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by nickelironsteel

thats correct. i wish CAPI would sell those with a fader separately, i would buy 10 instantly to put after my 512c

Originally Posted by rockrecorder

Unless I am mistaken, the Missing Link is doing exactly what you're looking for.

Classic Audio Products of Illinois

Yes, that's exactly right. But you get the benefit of a pair of great HP/LP filters too.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by glitchfactor

But what I'd like to know is why the switch from passive attenuation to the channel fader. Does it sound better? If so, in what way?

I don't think there is a "switch", just a new product. Consolidation. Instead of having 2 500 units - a vp26 + Missing Link - you get both (albeit at a slightly less flexable unit) in one space. I've got all 3 - Missing Link, vp26, vp28. These days I seem to be liking the 28, but honestly, the differences between 26/ML and 28 are subtle. I use all, but right now the 28 is on my mix bus due to it's "line input" that goes thru the mic transformer. Do not underestimate that simple feature. My request and my favorite feature.

[glitchfactor]

Originally Posted by drBill

Do not underestimate that simple feature. My request and my favorite feature.

Awww man..... That would be awesome. Too bad I already bought VP26s last year. I've already got a set of API 527 compressors on my 2bus, but having the 28 go with that would be great.

Oh well....there's ALWAYS going to be new stuff. ;-)

Thanks for the info drBill

[jrod9900]

Originally Posted by glitchfactor

Awww man..... That would be awesome. Too bad I already bought VP26s last year. I've already got a set of API 527 compressors on my 2bus, but having the 28 go with that would be great.

Oh well....there's ALWAYS going to be new stuff. ;-)

Thanks for the info drBill

I think Scheffer has some 28s he'd probably like to get rid of...

JROD

[glitchfactor]

Originally Posted by jrod9900

I think Scheffer has some 28s he'd probably like to get rid of...

JROD

Haha....I actually just messaged him on Facebook that since he has both VP26 and VP28s he needs to do a shootout for me and send me the results. ;-)

[TonyBelmont]

I've never found that API's distort in a pleasant way when actually "pushed" like a Neve or a tape machine. In fact, it's mostly linear distortion (ie not the good kind) that they produce and not very pleasant. I much prefer to push my Neve preamps and use the API's correctly.

[paulnajar]

Originally Posted by Daedalus77

I don't worry about the lights on preamps. I just listen. I DO, of course, worry about the lights on the converters, but avoiding those red lights is what the attenuators are there for.

Also: For what are you using the ATTY? Is the two-channel version or the rack-mount version? I found the two-channel version exhibited some inconsistency across the two (stereo) channels. And again, I think using an variable attenuator post-mic-pre (functioning like a console fader would) is preferable to using an in-line pads, like the Shures.

Just my two cents. Best of luck.

Thanks for that. Agreed you MUST listen always. That said perhaps a better question for me to ask is - has anyone ever found a drum sound they like with an API 3124/ 512 etc that involved the peak light coming on?

I have the stereo ATTY and while it's not ideal I use it to attenuate between pre and converters. Two mono channels would definitely be more flexible but I can usually find a reasonable setting that works for say a kick and snare close mic.

I also use the shures in a similar way or sometimes going into the pre. They too are not ideal as the most gentle setting is -15dB.

Given that currently a mixerless studio is my reality, can anyone recommend a variable attenuation device to live between pres and converters with at least 4 mono channels that won't break the bank too massively?

Kind regards