Signal chain and mics question...

[againandagain]

Actually, this might be in the wrong place. On reflection, it might be. Apologies. But the Blueberry felt high end to me. Or my wallet at least.

[jetam]

Relatively clean preamps, like the ones on the Duet, aren't very expensive to make good. And IMHO mic has a way more influence on sound than a preamp.
And also the theory about the weakest link of the chain isn't really true. A good microphone is always gonna work better than a bad one, no matter what pre are you using it with.

[againandagain]

Thanks man, that's good to know.

It's so subjective but as someone with a fairly deep voice looking to do 90% vocals... is there anything with a reputation for excelling out of the options I'm looking at? Or even anything else...

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by againandagain

Hi guys, I'm in the process of getting an audio interface and microphone at the moment.

I like the Apogee Duet and was looking to get that... I'm mainly recording hip hop vocals, so I know the mic is important - I'm tempted to push the boat out and go for the BLUE Blueberry (for example)

My question is this... would the mic be wasted with a (relatively) cheaper preamp? Does it need high end pre-amps to really get the most out of it? And would I be wasting my money and better off going for a slightly cheaper mic based on running it through the Apogee?

Thanks!

Funny thing, but a high end preamp will often bring more out of a lower end mic than a high end mic.

I have a philosophy about gear.... there is little purpose to having a $10,000 piece mixed in with a bunch of budget gear unless you are planning on incremental upgrades to replace the budget gear to end up with a very nice system in the long run. (Which is what I did, but is not for everybody.) Most people are served well in buying parts that are all in and around the same quality, settling in and getting some work done.

[againandagain]

I absolutely agree with your logic...

But being slightly anal it bugs me that I could be spending... say... $500 on a mic and then upgrading to a $2000... because it almost feels like I wasted $500 by taking that first step rather than going all in.

I completely see how it makes sense if you're recording professionally for a range of people and styles because it pays to have a wide variety of mics. The difference, I guess, in my case is that I am recording a narrow range of people and styles to where I don't feel the need to diversify my mic collection just yet.

But then again, there would be no point, as I see it... in having a top of the range mic and the Duet 2 (as good as it is meant to be for what it does)

Right now, I'm set on the Duet... but in terms of mics there are so so many out there. My current shortlist:

- AKG C214
- Rhode NTK
- Neuman TLM 102


Or considering that the mic is so integral in hip hop recording, perhaps stretching to:

- AKG C 414 XLS
- BLUE Blueberry

... but would it justify the jump in price for me is what I wonder?

I've done hours of research, but it's still no clearer. In fact, the more I read, the harder it gets

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by againandagain

I completely see how it makes sense if you're recording professionally for a range of people and styles because it pays to have a wide variety of mics.

)

"...... because it almost feels like I wasted $500 by taking that first step rather than going all in..."

You'll often see me say, "Buy once, buy right." If you have the time and ability to audition your mic and pick the perfect one for you, that is a smart thing to do. Same with the rest of the gear.

I can't tell you about the Duet one way or another. I've been happy in RME-land since my last MOTU shit the bed and I jumped to the Germans, in the 1990s.

[againandagain]

Buy once, buy right is a smart mantra.

I've almost always auditioned monitors and headphones in the past. For whatever reason, the places have been slightly more difficult when it comes to auditioning headphones. They cite health and safety... I'm not sure I agree with it, but I have to respect their rules.

There is always the option to return something that isn't right, but obviously it's a whole lot easier just to get it right off the bat. But of course, it's harder to do that without trying it.... a bit of a catch 22.

[cheu78]

Bill is right.. Buy once but good, it will save you money on the long run.

my opinion regarding the mic:

Of course every singer/source will have one that fits beautifully, but there are some mics that could be great on many sources.. that said:

stay away from the new akg 414 or 214.. If you want a 414 get an old one.
Check out Violet Design: on the budget check the Black Knight out, if you could go up to 1.5k I'd seriously consider the Globe Standard (fwiw I wrote a review in the GS review section about the Globe Vintage where I also mention the Standard, below my avatar there's the link).
Violet Design was formed by the ex Blue designer Juris Zarins.

Speaking of Violet, check also out the JZ mics (violet spin off, JZ= Juris Zarins) the JZ-11 might fit a lower budget.

I had a great experience using the Milab DC-96B on a local rapper.. it's a tiny mic, but was really great! (the preamp was an Avedis MA5). Over here it's not an expensive mic, I got it for less than 1k (around 6-700 with the great rubber shockmount).

If you need something very clear and open sounding you might want to look into a Brauner Classic, maybe used for saving some pennies.. very nice high quality mic.

Also Microtech Gefell could be a good option: the 930 (among other more expensive models) could be a good buy..sometimes they pop up used.

An old Beyerdynamic 740 could also be a good buy..

Regarding preamps, the ones in the duet are clean and decent, I don't know if the ones in the rme ucx are better.. they should be around the same..the only reason I'd not go with the duet is that you could only use it with macs, rme works perfectly with both mac an windows.

Getting an outboard preamp will also make a difference (as everything in a chain), but again you might want to get some great quality pieces, your mic is going to apperciate that
BAE DMP is 1k new and it's the same preamp found in their more expensive 10xx series, with the DMP you get also a killer sounding DI.
Or try to get a new or used lunchbox of some sorts (maybe the adesigns hr500 2 slots) and get an Avedis MA5 (probably the best preamp made for this format), you'll thank me later (always fwiw you could check my review in the GS classifieds).
You could go cleaner with the John Hardy M1 with the output xformer (you might find 1 channel for about 1k), or again in the 500 series a Forssell smp-500 very clean but not harsh.

All these are very high quality pieces that could be found for a reasonable cost all considered (in some cases is a sort of bargain IMO).. you can't get much better than these at any price IMO, of course there are some tube based designs that are nice and more expensive and of course it's also a matter of taste/goals, but seriously these pre's are among the best you could buy.

All this is probaly above your budget, but try to make "futureproof" purchases, like with your inteface, get something that will last..
Then you could buy slowly, the mic first, a preamp later and so on.. Try to test yourself all this stuff.. listen to the mics, the preamps, etc, if you can..find a dealer or a studio or a fellow gslut near you where you could audition these products..

I hope this helps somehow,



Cheu

[againandagain]

cheu,

Thanks for a very detailed response. There's certainly a huge price difference between the Black Night and the Globe... and I'm sure it's very very worth the difference from your review... this is an interesting option for me.

Online reviews have the Globe Standard in pole position for me right now... I just wish I could test it, but I will probably get it from Thoman with the 30 day money back guarantee if there is a problem.

....what are people's thoughts on these things:

Micco Reflection Screen for Microphone Stands at Gear4Music.com

Do they do good?

[againandagain]

I'll also probably go with the Duet 2 over the RME... I only ever plan to use it on a Mac so that's not a consideration for me.

The outboard pre is the next step, for sure, but I will play with it through the Duet first before switching up, I think.

Thanks again

[againandagain]

So I have just discovered there is no UK dealer but Violet Design are very helpful via e-mail support and can arrange something, for anyone else who is in a similar situation.

[cheu78]

You'll be very happy with the Globe
I don't know if Avedis or BAE have distributors in UK (funky junk maybe?), if they don't contact them directly they're great people.

I don't know the piece you mentioned but if you're looking for some kind of reflection filter for vocals, I'd check out the realtraps portable vocal booth one.. It's probably better..
You could actually build something like that easily.. check out mb akustik in germany also, they're great. I don't personally know a company in the uk, but I'm sure there are many that builds acoustic treatments.. (gik for exemple, even if I don't have any direct experience with them, so can't comment).
Btw it's a good idea to invest some money in the treatment..



Cheu

[againandagain]

Thanks cheu...

That's exactly it... the way I figure, there's no point investing in a decent mic if your recording environment is terrible.

Between your recommendation, the price and their reputation, I know that RealTraps are very very good for this kind of thing, but as a curious newbie... what makes their products better than the worse alternatives on the market?

[cheu78]

Having used a reflection filter in the past, it's not forcely a matter of quality of the product itself..
The reflection filter is smaller and therefore less effective and it's not the easiest thing to position.. It's ok for its price, but it's not going to turn the room in a great recording space.. it helps a bit, but not much.

That's why probably the realtraps are better, or placing some broadband absorbers and treating the room it's even better.. if you're a little handy you could build this stuff and save some quids
Btw already made products by mb akustik are excellent. (I guess that there are similar companies in the uk too).

Let us know how do you likethe Globe Standard when you receive it.. (I have the strong feeling that you won't send it back ).



Cheu

[againandagain]

Oh, I will do.

I may end up making my own PVB/RF equivalent now that I've looked into it.

I'm away for a couple of weeks but am absolutely desperate to get back so that I can start playing with the Globe. Thanks for all your input, cheu.

[jetam]

I don't think that those new 414s are bad, they just don't have much in common with the older ones (except the name).
Anyway, I would never change my pair of B-ULSs for new models.

[jetam]

I don't think that those new 414s are bad, they just don't have much in common with the older ones (except the name).
Anyway, I would never change my pair of B-ULSs for new models.

[cheu78]

Originally Posted by againandagain

Oh, I will do.

I may end up making my own PVB/RF equivalent now that I've looked into it.

I'm away for a couple of weeks but am absolutely desperate to get back so that I can start playing with the Globe. Thanks for all your input, cheu.

No problem mate!



Cheu

[cheu78]

Originally Posted by jetam

I don't think that those new 414s are bad, they just don't have much in common with the older ones (except the name).
Anyway, I would never change my pair of B-ULSs for new models.

IME despite sounding different they really sound very harsh.. I've also tried them live as OH and they suck big time.. at least this is my experience with them.
I bet that you don't want to change your old ones with the new ones



Cheu