Can a certain rack effect the sound of your Neve 1073?

[shortstory]

I have an 8 space VK rack with 8 modules in it and it works great. I've never had a single issue with it. Maybe others have had different experiences but I say thumbs up. The only difference I see is that the neve rack uses even heavier gauge steel. But the VK rack is a tank and half the price almost I think.

[Emwolb]

Not the 1073 rack.

BUT supposedly the way the 1081 is powered makes the AMS rack sonically superior. Its also sizeably more expensive than the AMS 1073 rack...

So I would only worry if running 1081s.

[Adonis Martine]

Thanx alot fellas!

Really appreciate this as I didnt want to spend 1800 dollars on a AMS-Neve rack.

[cheu78]

Nothing that concern the rack itself..But since you didn't buy it yet..why not BAE?

Their 1073 have no IC in it, built like a tank, as the original modules (or as close as possible today) and easily serviceable in the future..

I also guess that they're cheaper than ams.. and they have the great 1023, which is exactly the same thing as a 1073 but with more frequencies in the mids and the highs..much more versatile.

Plus they have also a rack in case you need it..

I hope this helps somehow..

Just my 0.02$,



Cheu

[Mike Caffrey]

I'd be surprised if there were any problems with VK or BAE.

There are all sorts of people with varying skill levels that do work on Neve modules and build racks. You can definitely get one that affects the sound.

[balanceman]

I have a used vk rack if you're interested

[Matt Syson]

Hi
If the power supply can provide sufficient current at the right voltage with no 'noise' then they will all work correctly. The definition of 'no noise' probably needs qualification but should certainly be less than a couple of millivolts. ALL modules used in the rack should have some form of noise 'rejection' otherwise you would get signal related crosstalk from one module to the others. It would be a very poor design if individual modules cannot work 'to specification' if the supply has at least a little noise on it. Noise may be either hiss or power related ripple.
Matt S

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

There are all sorts of people with varying skill levels that do work on Neve modules and build racks. You can definitely get one that affects the sound.

Agreed... I have seen a certain 1073 rack/ PSU that is virtually unusable in some settings, because it radiates so much EM.

The best rack I've come across is the BAE 2CR which uses Jensen transformers on the DI inputs, and has a wonderfully low noise PSU.

[Geoff_T]

Hi

Generally, so not directed at any specific supplier, the rack can have an ENORMOUS effect on the sound of the Neve module. In the 16 years I have been this side of the pond I have seen some regular horror stories masquerading as suitable racks.

I have a long post on my forums concerning grounding and how, for some bizarre reason, some rack constructors left it off completely. So a 2 core ac cord and plug and no ground at all going to the module. The somewhat distorted belief being this will prevent ground loops at the cost of the noise, stability and rf rejection of the Neve module.

Neve modules must be grounded... like the consoles they came from. If the studio is wired properly you won't get a ground loop as all the grounds should be at the same potential.

Next issue, the power supply. This should have sufficient current headroom to accommodate the inrush current of the capacitors charging and should also be exceptionally low noise because the power supply is part of the module's audio path and the module cannot be quieter than the power supply feeding it. Plus, if the power supply is inside the rack, the power transformer should not radiate such large emf that the transformers in the module can pick up.

Most importantly, electrical safety. Besides the grounding issue, I have seen racks with non-insulated ac connections and with ac connections perilously close to metalwork.

And finally, mechanical alignment to the module back connector and security of that back connector to the connector on the module.

If all these issues are taken into consideration, that's a great rack, but consider the points before buying one.

And don't forget, Neve modules never had a DI input, so what you see is the rack builder's adaptation of the wiring of the module.....

[cathode]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

So a 2 core ac cord and plug and no ground at all going to the module. The somewhat distorted belief being this will prevent ground loops at the cost of the noise, stability and rf rejection of the Neve module.

If the modules are grounded to the associated equipment via the shielded interconnecting cables, what's the problem?

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by cathode

If the modules are grounded to the associated equipment via the shielded interconnecting cables, what's the problem?

Hi

Then you have an issue as the grounds try to equalize down the shield of the audio cable... yes, it can be a problem.

I still maintain Neve modules have to be grounded... they were in the factory and every decent rack I have seen. They need it for the shields in the transformers, for the case to act as a screen, and they are a lot quieter and less liable to instability at high gains.

I can never understand why this can't be grasped. If you have a ground loop, because your studio is not optimized to not have them, then lift a shield from one end of the interconnecting cable... but that fixes the symptom... not the fault.

[Plush]

I have had problems with grounding in a supplied rack out of Detroit City. Low level hum wad heard. Buzzing was also heard.

I think you're fine with a non AMS-Neve rack if you get a good build on the rack.

I really like the AMS-Neve rack but simply tried to save money.

[cathode]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

Then you have an issue as the grounds try to equalize down the shield of the audio cable... yes, it can be a problem.

I still maintain Neve modules have to be grounded... they were in the factory and every decent rack I have seen. They need it for the shields in the transformers, for the case to act as a screen, and they are a lot quieter and less liable to instability at high gains.

I can never understand why this can't be grasped. If you have a ground loop, because your studio is not optimized to not have them, then lift a shield from one end of the interconnecting cable... but that fixes the symptom... not the fault.

Don't see the problem.
There is plenty of documentation supporting the concept of connecting shields at both ends.
http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/c...?&cc=US&lc=eng

Bonding Cable Shields at Both Ends to Reduce Noise

Regarding the first post, I recently measured a Neve rack power supply that was fabricated by acquaintances of yours. Not going to mention any names but their initials are the same as British Aerospace's. The 24 volt supply had 22 mV of noise, the phantom supply generated 200 mV of noise. Seems reasonable to expect the power supplies would affect the sonic quality of the Neve 1073 modules.
Quality linear power supplies typically have a noise spec (loaded) of 1 mV or less. Lambda's LD 24 V units are rated at 150 uV RMS.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by cathode

Don't see the problem.
There is plenty of documentation supporting the concept of connecting shields at both ends.
http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/c...?&cc=US&lc=eng

Bonding Cable Shields at Both Ends to Reduce Noise

Regarding the first post, I recently measured a Neve rack power supply that was fabricated by acquaintances of yours. Not going to mention any names but their initials are the same as British Aerospace's. The 24 volt supply had 22 mV of noise, the phantom supply generated 200 mV of noise. Seems reasonable to expect the power supplies would affect the sonic quality of the Neve 1073 modules.
Quality linear power supplies typically have a noise spec (loaded) of 1 mV or less. Lambda's LD 24 V units are rated at 150 uV RMS.

Hi,

I agree... my ballpark of a good PSU for a Neve rack is 1mV max noise/ripple.... because that's around what the Coutants did for the big consoles.

Don't get me wrong, we are going off at a tangent. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with having a cable with the shields taken down at both ends... especially at a pro studio where the grounding of the equipment was done properly.

But imagine a circumstance such as often posted here as help questions... a home based studio with a zillion extension cables daisy chained, shakey ground connections (if any at all) in the wall sockets and high probability of different ground potentials between different items of equipment.

Poor guy is hoping his room will emulate EMI Abbey road but there are a mountain of issues to fix (never mind accoustics) before he gets anywhere close.

Bottom line that I oft repeat, the racks and modules must be grounded. In the past I have seen two companies racking Neve modules that used two core ac cords. Maybe not now, but they are around still.

[Matt Syson]

Hi
Is that Electro Magnetic Interference Abbey Road by any chance?
There are better reasons for grounding cables these days with the prevalence of mobile phones (wavelength of a few inches) and switchmode power supplies kicking around the studio.
Geoff's assertion that less than 1mV of 'noise and ripple' is fine as the internal decoupling of the module will help clean this bit up.
The 'humble' LM317 can manage better than this given a half decent 'home' and anyone who cannot be bothered to read the data sheets on how to do this, well.............
Matt S