Integrating Tape and DAW

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by danly

However, I think the simplest way to do it is to monitor your tape machine through the daw. Create 16 channels, or whatever. Set them to input monitor, or arm the tracks so that you can hear them, but do no actually press play in the daw. You are basically using pro tools as a digital console.
Then dump after the take on tape from the repro head.

That's what I was trying to say, but you said it more clearly. If you're using a click you'll have to bounce that to ProTools as well. If you want to do any quantizing or bounce to grid stuff you'll have to remap your session to the bounced audio click. I've never done that, but it's easy, right?

-R

[AllBread]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

If you're looking to do odd overdubs to tape, there's really no way to keep things in sync other than with timecode. Otherwise, you have to transfer, transfer back, and chop things to make them line up again. Tracking to tape, and then transferring an overdub and hoping it's going to line up is futile - you're gonna be chopping the performance around trying to make it work.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I've never had to chop up performances when either A) spitting a track out to tape and recording it "simultaneously" off of the repro head or B) Doing an overdub and splitting the mic pre to PT as well as to Tape (while importing the tape track at the same time off the repro head). Once the delay is accounted for, I've always found things to line up just fine.

I've been working on some mixes lately and bouncing some things to tape and thought I'd show some screen shots that show almost sample accurate sync - no SMPTE, no MTC, just bouncing tracks from Pro Tools to tape and back and then lining up the start of the files.

1st three shots are of a vocal take - shot 1 is the first phrase of the song, shot 2 is the last (again, no cutting or adjusting after lining up the files at the top. Shot 3 is a random spot in the middle (not the first one that I used to line the takes up with that shows how tight it is staying).

Next three shots are of a drum take - shot 1 is the very first beat of the song that I used to line up the two tracks. Shot 2 is the last beat of the song 2.5 minutes later. Still right on the money. Shot 3 shows the whole take.

Now certainly if you played the two tracks together you'd hear some flanging from wow and flutter and minor variations but never would you hear the takes being "off" timing wise.

I easily calculated the offset of tape tracks coming back in from the repro head (at 96k my MCI JH110 was 5825 samples at 30ips and 11637 samples at 15ips). I set those values as my nudge value and all I have to do (even if doing loop record for vocals and have multiple playlists) is highlight the tape tracks and hit the minus key and, viola, pretty much perfectly in sync tracks without Clasp, SMPTE, or any other syncing device.

I just thought I'd take the time to post these screen shots so that people don't walk away from this thread with the impression that integrating tape with your DAW in this manor requires a lot of extra hardware or time. The trick is to simply record off the repro head immediately after your signal hits the tape - not to roll to tape, rewind, and then print back.

First phrase vocals:

Last phrase vocals:

random spot in middle of vocal track:

1st drum hit of song:

Believe it or not, last drum hit 2.5 minutes later:

whole track:

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by AllBread

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I've never had to chop up performances when either A) spitting a track out to tape and recording it "simultaneously" off of the repro head or B) Doing an overdub and splitting the mic pre to PT as well as to Tape (while importing the tape track at the same time off the repro head). Once the delay is accounted for, I've always found things to line up just fine.

I've been working on some mixes lately and bouncing some things to tape and thought I'd show some screen shots that show almost sample accurate sync - no SMPTE, no MTC, just bouncing tracks from Pro Tools to tape and back and then lining up the start of the files.

1st three shots are of a vocal take - shot 1 is the first phrase of the song, shot 2 is the last (again, no cutting or adjusting after lining up the files at the top. Shot 3 is a random spot in the middle (not the first one that I used to line the takes up with that shows how tight it is staying).

Next three shots are of a drum take - shot 1 is the very first beat of the song that I used to line up the two tracks. Shot 2 is the last beat of the song 2.5 minutes later. Still right on the money. Shot 3 shows the whole take.

Now certainly if you played the two tracks together you'd hear some flanging from wow and flutter and minor variations but never would you hear the takes being "off" timing wise.

I easily calculated the offset of tape tracks coming back in from the repro head (at 96k my MCI JH110 was 5825 samples at 30ips and 11637 samples at 15ips). I set those values as my nudge value and all I have to do (even if doing loop record for vocals and have multiple playlists) is highlight the tape tracks and hit the minus key and, viola, pretty much perfectly in sync tracks without Clasp, SMPTE, or any other syncing device.

I just thought I'd take the time to post these screen shots so that people don't walk away from this thread with the impression that integrating tape with your DAW in this manor requires a lot of extra hardware or time. The trick is to simply record off the repro head immediately after your signal hits the tape - not to roll to tape, rewind, and then print back.

Yes, I see what you're doing - of course, if you're printing "through" the tape, then the delay is consistent and it will all line up.

Also works if you're transferring from DAW and back again I suppose.

I was thinking more about situations where you're doing takes, then transferring the ones you want to keep.

I can see why, if you've got a way to monitor pre-tape, this would be a much better way of doing things.

[LAtoNash]

Greetings!

Anyone mixing while syncing tape and DAW? With so many inexpensive 8 track tape machines out there, I am thinking of getting one and adding 8 tracks of analog to my studio. Other than the latency, which can be corrected, and having to wait for the tape to start each time for playback during mixing, any other problems you are having?

I want to stripe the tape and playback with the DAW in sync with tape machine, as it would give me 8 extra tracks without having to buy more converters and having 8 tracks of analog tape would be nice. As opposed to bringing the tape tracks back into DAW, anyone doing it this way these days on the playback?

Thanks for your help!

[crosscutred]

Originally Posted by LAtoNash

Greetings!

Anyone mixing while syncing tape and DAW? With so many inexpensive 8 track tape machines out there, I am thinking of getting one and adding 8 tracks of analog to my studio. Other than the latency, which can be corrected, and having to wait for the tape to start each time for playback during mixing, any other problems you are having?

I want to stripe the tape and playback with the DAW in sync with tape machine, as it would give me 8 extra tracks without having to buy more converters and having 8 tracks of analog tape would be nice. As opposed to bringing the tape tracks back into DAW, anyone doing it this way these days on the playback?

Thanks for your help!

I don't think its worth it for the extra tracks, It would be a real pain. Getting it to sync is notoriously troublesome.
Also there would only be 7 more tracks because the timecode will take one, and may bleed onto the next.... down to 6.
I would either submix in the DAW to send out stems or stick to 8 tracks on tape and just restrict myself to that (lots of fun)

Don't let me discourage you though if you're keen to try it, let us know how it works out for you.

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Spiritworks

Brad,
In another thread there was a question about getting CLASP to work with RADAR. Any movement on that front that you are aware of? I have an Otari 1/2" 8track and a Radar 24. The new CLASP 8channel unit would be a nice fit, only if......

Well I know Chris from Endless Analog is interested. I gave him the contact info for the guys at iZ, but I don't know what happened after that. I'll try to remember to talk to both Chris, and Barry (from iZ) at AES and see if I convince them to talk to each other about this. I would actually consider paying the $1k RADAR software upgrade fee if they got this working. This would be huge. Chris would have to give me a free CLASP of course. Ha.

I just got my RADAR 24 up and running at my studio (finally!). I started working on a process with a series of mapkeys to implement my DAW/tape system on RADAR a few months ago. But I haven't yet had a chance to test it all out. If it requires too much manual fussing then I'll probably abandon the effort. It depends on RADAR's behavior remembering previous selections and delay time inputs. We'll see...

Brad

[LAtoNash]

Thanks Alex! Good point about the striped track and bleed over to a second track, leaving only 6 tracks. I may get one and try it out anyway. I will probably end up throwing it down the hill from it not stopping and starting efficiently. Clasp looks really cool. I hope it becomes affordable in the near future.

Cheers!

[Spiritworks]

Brad, very interested to hear what you can glean from talking to Barry and Chris. Please keep us posted.

[EndlessAnalog]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Well I know Chris from Endless Analog is interested. I gave him the contact info for the guys at iZ, but I don't know what happened after that. I'll try to remember to talk to both Chris, and Barry (from iZ) at AES and see if I convince them to talk to each other about this. I would actually consider paying the $1k RADAR software upgrade fee if they got this working. This would be huge. Chris would have to give me a free CLASP of course. Ha.

I just got my RADAR 24 up and running at my studio (finally!). I started working on a process with a series of mapkeys to implement my DAW/tape system on RADAR a few months ago. But I haven't yet had a chance to test it all out. If it requires too much manual fussing then I'll probably abandon the effort. It depends on RADAR's behavior remembering previous selections and delay time inputs. We'll see...

Brad

Hey guys,

I got a really nice phone call from Barry over at RADAR / IZ a few weeks ago. He wants to add CLASP support to RADAR. So we talked it all through and he says it should be fairly simple for him to integrate. So we will keep you posted on our progress. See you all at AES. WE will be debuting the CLASP 8 (less expensive for overdubbing) with a MARA machine over at the Vintage King booth. I am also bringing something else that is new and a BIG surprise for those curious or interested.

Best, Chris

[Spiritworks]

Nice!

[Brad McGowan]

Hey Chris,

That's great news! How exciting. I'll definitely stop by your booth at AES to check out the new products and whatever secret stuff you have.

talk soon,
Brad

p.s. I tried really hard yesterday to implement some mapkeys on RADAR to get it to slide audio back into place after doing an overdub through a tape deck. No dice. Even if it did work the time it takes to process the mapkeys is way too long IMHO. So looks like CLASP is the only real solution there.

[SabreChris]

Brad, Great videos.

Can someone recommend a robust 2 track that would work well with Brad's method? I have watched the videos and it seems like it should be relatively painless with enough tape.

Also Brad, I see you have a UBK Fatso in your rack. Does the tape impart some magic you can't get with the Fatso, or is the fatso better all around for coloration?

What would make it perfect is a loop reel that you don't have to rewind, and midi control of a solenoid that starts the tape reel spinning when you arm for recording. Might be able to adapt a midi controlled light module.