Pacifica vs API ?

[Emwolb]

Originally Posted by piano

From all the samples I have heard here over the years, both the Pacifica and API sound, in my description, bright and forward.

I am not sure I could tell them apart.

Then you have never heard an original API 312. Bright is the last term I would use to describe a 312.

[bwindsor]

Wearing my "guitar player" hat, best way for me to describe the difference between the Pacifica and API (yes I have both), to me, Pacifica is like a clean Twin Reverb, API is like a clean Marshall....in other words, one is "softer" (Pacifica) and one is "harder" (API).

[foldback]

Both of these preamps have similar history. Deane Jensen (of Jensen transformers) and Ed Reichenbach were both affiliated with API in the early days, then they moved across the USA to California and Electrodyne was born.

Ed did the transformer designs for both. In the API transformers they use steel laminations, in the Electrodyne (and later Jensen designs) they used high quality Nickel in the laminations for flatter frequency response.

The steel cores yield a bit more headroom than the nickel at the expense of distortion in the bass as you near 20 cps.

The nickel cores yield a bit smoother frequency response and less group delay at the expense of headroom.

I have many API preamps. Some I've hotrodded with custom wound nickel core transformers. It is a bit sweeter sounding but not night and day.

I've compared older API 312 preamp output transformers to the new issue models and found inconsequential differences IMO.

I'm very satisfied by API preamps. I have a couple of old 312 cards that I've rack mounted, they are really great sounding for rock music.

Good music to all!

[Silvertone]

Originally Posted by GaryWeinrib

API is the tightest punchiest mic pre ever. Source is irrelevant when API is the punch factor. No other pre has the punch vibe like API. Sorry not a cliche

No other pre??? Then son you haven't been around the block.

In the article I wrote I described the sound of these things (early Edyne, Q8 and Sphere) as being right in between a Neve and an API. I still stand by that statement.

Having owned (and still own) most of these units all I can say is my Neve's and API's are all gone now and I only use Electrodyne (tube and solid state), Q8, Langevin (tube and solid state) and Melcor pre's. I have absolutely nothing against Neve and API and in fact enjoy the sound of sources run through these modules quite a bit.

As far as consoles I've had in my studios over the years, they would be Neve BCM10 sidecar (full of 1073's), Quad Eight Pacifica, Flickinger 281, Trident 80B (and 24), Tac Scorpian, Ramsa WRT820B, Soundcraft 600 and Soundcraft 200. (going back through time) I recently installed a Sphere out at Black Dog that is just wonderful sounding.

Everyone has different ears, everyone figures out what works best for them in the long run. After being an old analog dog for so many years when the change to digital happened I searched for a way of making it have "the feel" of great old analog again.

Personally I've found it by fronting most of my recording with great old tube mic pre's and then mixing back through the old Electrodyne board I own. Now after a 15 to 20 year search I am happy with the sound of digital. YMMV.

Old API's and new API's sound different to me. My Melcors come closest to the old API sound that I like. The new ones sound somewhat thinner by comparison IMHO... yes, tell me how everything is the same and I will tell you how the "iron" is not. Plus I've shot them out side by side.

Oh and the Pacifica module does not sound exactly like the Pacifica console. The top end is slightly different and Peter knows this. Peter wanted a slightly more hi-fi sound to the top end and that is what they have (smooth). The Electrodyne pre does sound almost exactly like the original. Ken worked hard to make sure they would. I did beta testing on both.

I have sound samples of me singing the same line through the same mic (at varying distances) through all these pre's that I saved as a reference for myself. Almost 20 years worth. You'd be amazed at how some of these "great" pre's sound compared to the others. Don't ask me to post it as I am a horrible singer (ha-ha)... instead do the same thing. If you plan on being in this business a while it can be a real ear opening experience for you (and a great reference for your memory cells).

I will state that "all pre's must be heard in the context they are to be used to be evaluated correctly". I will also state that "you can make music using any pre-amp and that the music itself is much more important than the capture medium". The high end stuff just makes working on such things much easier (and pleasant sounding) in the long run.

Enjoy and make great music gang!

[Silvertone]

Originally Posted by foldback

Both of these preamps have similar history. Deane Jensen (of Jensen transformers) and Ed Reichenbach were both affiliated with API in the early days, then they moved across the USA to California and Electrodyne was born.

Ed did the transformer designs for both. In the API transformers they use steel laminations, in the Electrodyne (and later Jensen designs) they used high quality Nickel in the laminations for flatter frequency response.

The steel cores yield a bit more headroom than the nickel at the expense of distortion in the bass as you near 20 cps.

The nickel cores yield a bit smoother frequency response and less group delay at the expense of headroom.

I have many API preamps. Some I've hotrodded with custom wound nickel core transformers. It is a bit sweeter sounding but not night and day.

I've compared older API 312 preamp output transformers to the new issue models and found inconsequential differences IMO.

I'm very satisfied by API preamps. I have a couple of old 312 cards that I've rack mounted, they are really great sounding for rock music.

Good music to all!

Electrodyne was born way before Ed moved to California. To quote Don King... "Virginia, there were two Electrodynes..."

In certain Electrodyne transformers (ET 10013 and ET 10010) they used nickle wound over the steel. They'd actually wind them with one over the other. Tom told me he tried to duplicate this a few times over the years but never could do it. Only his Dad and a hand full of guys could do it back in the day. Tom told me to hold onto them as they will never be created again. He said they were "like gold". RIP Tom (and thank you).

I myself found "sonic" difference in the older API's and the newer ones. Slight but different. Like I said above, a bit thinner sounding. I think it's from the op-amp myself. Whereas the Melcors use 1731 op-amps (quite a different beast from the 2520's). I've found the older 2520's to sound more like the Melcors 1731 than the newer ones... but I'm no tech and couldn't begin to tell you what the differences actually are. I can only go by (and trust) my ears. I know I'm talking op-amps and not transformers here... so it is probably just that since you've compare the transformers themselves. Thanks for the info!

[fnninns]

When WHO moved to California?

Ed Reichenbach was living in LA and working at Altec Lansing during the 1940s.
He certainly didn't move to LA with API because he didn't work for API.

DEANE JENSEN WAS WITH API WHEN THEY STARTED ON THE EAST COAST AND THEN MOVED TO LA IN THE EARLY '70s.

Both men are responsible for major aspects of the sound of both the API mic pres and Quad8 (Pacifica) mic pres.

[SabreChris]

Thanks for everyone's comments and the history lessons. I think I will soon buy the A2D.

I am also looking at the Great River MP 2-NV, and the Grace M201, but I like the routing options of the A2D the most.

I have read that some people say the A2D is harsh (maybe too accurate) on vocals, but I figure if that is the case I am using the wrong mic.

[Silvertone]

Originally Posted by GaryWeinrib

Hi silvertone, we are talking about 500 series preamps not vintage quad 8 consoles. The only elctrodyne type preamp for 500 is the 501. I didn't think it was that special compared to 512s.
It's good

The Pacifica is not a 500 series unit... it's a rack mount stand alone unit.

That said, I did beta testing on both the Pacifica (and the 501) because Peter was trying to remake the Pacifica at the time... so how do you compare the sound of a "remake" if not to the real thing???

See and I feel the opposite, I prefer the 501's over the API sound. Meat vs. potato. 512's sound better than the newest ones IMHO but Melcors still sound better to me. That's my opinion only. Don't listen to my opinion, don't listen to anyone else either.

After 37 years of doing this you form your own opinions and listen very little to those of others... since by then you should have a pretty good frame of reference. Also I record, test and compare the sound of pre-amps all the time (It's why I still do beta testing for a lot of companies... have a beautiful tube pre that's about to come to market in right now). I must have 30 different pre-amps recorded in that file of mine, I listen through them all every time I get a new one in to test.

But hey all is cool, Rupert doesn't think much of the sound of a 1073 anymore but there are plenty here that will tell you it's the sound of God.

Good luck in your quest for sonic perfection everybody. Ears open!

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by fnninns

If you had them side by side you would realize the difference with ease.

Let me add that both are great mic pres and I could live with either if I only had one.

wow, have not heard this one. you need to AB them.

[AllBread]

Yep, these are two that your just going to have to compare yourself as they are very different. I personally didn't like the Pacifca at all but, obviously, others are loving it and getting sounds that they like out of it. I have 4 vintage API 312 pres that are great for drums, bass and electric guitar but never loved it on vocals or acoustic guitar. The pendulum MDP-1 has become my "go-to" for vocals and acoustic and once I heard it the search was over. Also well worth considering the Chandler TG2 which is a pre that has yet to fail me on any source and is one that I'd highly recommend demoing if your checking out the API and the Pacifica.

It costs a little money but nothing is more fun and better for your ears or brain then getting a hold of 3 different preamps and giving them a whirl. It's great for your critical listening skills and will give you full confidence that the one that you buy is the right one for you. The extra money that it costs you can be marked in the "experience and education" area and that's the one area that gives you the greatest payoff for the time and money spent.

If, however, demoing them yourself isn't possible then get yourself over to eBay and pick up a Chandler TG2 - I have yet to meet an experienced engineer who doesnt love that preamp!

[soypancho]

I've spent a lot of time with both; I rarely reached for the 512c once the Pacifica was in my rack. The sound I'm going for could be different than what you're going for. Try to get both in your room.

[garyboy2024]

Out of curiosity, has anyone on here tried Seventh Circle Audio's A12 module (API clone) with Tim's SC10 opamp rather than the standard SC25? I know the SC10 is modelled after the AM10 used in the A Designs Pacifica. I'm guessing this would bring out more low mids and round off the top in a pleasant way, but I'd like to hear from someone with experience if possible.

This might be another option for the OP as well, as I'm very impressed by the quality of the SCA modules. I use them next to my Pacifica and they really hold their own.

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by SabreChris

I am looking for two channels of aggressive, punchy, and articulate, and was told that API gets this sound. Demos I've heard confirm this. But I've heard so many people gush about their Pacifica that I thought if it was in the same family as API, I might do well with it.

I love both pres and would gladly record any style of music with either one. I personally like the Pacifica a bit more. Not going to say its better but it suits my taste perfectly. That said if aggressive is what you are hoping to get out of a mic pre, the API probably edges out the Pacifica a bit for that duty.

[Brad McGowan]

To follow up on Ronan's comment about aggressiveness... I typically use the Pacifica with a 12 dB line pad on the outputs so that I can either a) avoid the tonal shift from using the internal pad or b) squeeze extra color out of the input stage of the preamp. I find that when push more level into the Pacifica it gets creamy and harmonically complex before it folds entirely. The API on the other hand has a much buzzier distortion to my ears that doesn't sound as smooth to my ears--hence the term "aggressive". It happens to be a cool sound on things like drums and guitars. When I had an API 3124 I ran that thing in the red almost as a rule. But it's harder and edgier than the way the Pacifica distorts.

Brad

[seanmccoy]

Originally Posted by superwack

People tend to describe the PACIFICA as a cross between API and NEVE but, honestly, I found it more accurate to say it is in-between the two if that makes sense (?) it's not the "best of" the neve + the best of the API to me it's more less lows/highs than the neve, less mid than the api....

My feelings exactly. Both are excellent, but I don't use my API's for lead vocals or instruments as a rule. Couldn't live without them for drums, percussion, group vocals, aggressive strummed acoustic, etc., but if I had to choose between them for overall usefulness, I'd go with the Pacifica. But then, I'd let them all go before I'd give up my Aurora GTQC...

[fnninns]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

wow, have not heard this one. you need to AB them.

The OP and a few others were ASKING without having LISTENED to the actual units.
You can't really talk about audio equipment long before it is meaningless.
After a point you need to experience the actual pieces.

My point is that they DO NOT sound alike and the only way the OP and anyone else can understand the difference is to hear them side by side.

Is that better?

[pan60]

Originally Posted by SabreChris

Is the Pacifica an API style pre? I had read a bunch of rave reviews about it, but haven't heard much of it over the past couple years.

Nope!
A lot of companies have made pres using input transformers, discrete operational amps and output transformers, that dose not make them the same.

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

The P1 has a different output tranformer to fit in the 500 series form factor, and of course doesn't have the same power supply. The PSU will be a function of whatever 500 rack you use. On a scale of 1 to 100 with the Pacifica being 100, the P1 is a 97 in my opinion. You can use the two interchangeably as far as I'm concerned...I often do!

Brad

Same thoughts here!

I am a very big A-Designs Pacifica / P-1 fan, but, i also have love and use my API 512's. try and use what in the end make you feel good: )

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by pan60

Nope!
A lot of companies have made pres using input transformers, discrete operational amps and output transformers, that dose not make them the same.

Right. They share a fairly common and basic design. But, that doesn't mean they sound exactly the same. But, they are quite similar circuit wise. Using what we call the 312 style circuit. Dozens (maybe even hundreds) of other preamps also do...

[Emwolb]

Originally Posted by AllBread

I have 4 vintage API 312 pres that are great for drums, bass and electric guitar but never loved it on vocals or acoustic guitar...

I absolutely agree!!!

And in regards to API 312s-

After GMLs, Millennia HV-3D, 512s, Quad Eight MM61s, Avalon 737sp, LA610, Chandler LTD1, BAE 1272s, BAE 1073s, SSL console pres... (either owning or using daily)

I ended up with pairs of-
Vintage 1084s
Vintage Helios Type 69s
and... wait for it...
Vintage API 312s

Considering the APIs cost literally 1/5 what the other two do, I think that says something... Though the other two have ridiculous bloated pig pricing.

The funny thing is if I usually tracked to tape and not direct to a DAW, my answer would be totally different...

I think the 312s are sonic magic!

[once a roadie]

Hey- just a few thoughts about the API A2D now that I look back...it definitely could get creamy with 2:1 transformer button, cranked level and output fader trim (input trim to the converter section). Especially awesome for synths ( either through the DI or using a radial DI into the mic inputs). I Sold mine some time ago when I upgraded my general converters and went 500 series and still lament over certain sounds it could achieve, including a sweetly saturated vocal. Undoubtedly I will also try a Pacifica at some point. My current vocal pre is the fivefish n72 which also saturates sweetly.

[Izzi]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

I typically use the Pacifica with a 12 dB line pad on the outputs

Hey Brad,

May I ask what 12 dB line pad you're using with the Pacifica?

Thanks!

[Brad McGowan]

I'm using the Naiant pads...super cheap. I also have some of the Shure and Audio-Technica switchable ones as well, but those are more money.

Brad

[wagz]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

I'm using the Naiant pads...super cheap. I also have some of the Shure and Audio-Technica switchable ones as well, but those are more money.

Brad

I might have to try some of these on my Pacifica.

[Daedalus77]

Just to add to Brad's note about the in-line pads: I find that when tracking most sources (especially drums, for which I mainly use them), I like to run my API 512cs (and BAE 312As—similar but different) pretty hot. Unfortunately, doing so often overloads the next device downstream (often, my Apogees). Accordingly, I usually patch in my Little Labs RedCloud to moderate levels hitting the converters. RedCloud = eight balanced, stepped attenuators. Same principle as the in-line pads; different solution. Best of luck.

[Izzi]

Thanks Brad & Daedalus!

[pktele]

sold my 3124 - cool pres if thats the thing you want
with the dough from 3124 ( and then some!) bought 2 more pacificas.i now have a total of 10 channnels of pacifica, 2 channels of daking with eq, and 4 of hardy. in an ideal world i would have 12 pacificas and 4 dakings in addition to the 4 hardys
while i liked the 3124 i felt the pacifica covered ALOT more ground especially in the vocals, bass drums and acoustic instrument department.
FWIW I the last 6 months two guest engineers brought their 3124's along for drums in live off the floor sessions. after tracking here - both have gone out and bought pacificas on the basis of their experience....

upright bass, piano and fiiddle all drums except snare here are pacificas
easily 65% of the drum sound is the overheads ( u195s thru pacificas) and FOK on a closed head kick ( 421 / pacifica)FWIW the overheads were hit pretty hard with a adesigns nail in mixdown

Trent Freeman - Hot Spot for a Hobo - YouTube

[adirondack]

Originally Posted by pktele

sold my 3124 - cool pres if thats the thing you want
with the dough from 3124 ( and then some!) bought 2 more pacificas have a total of 10 channnels of pacifica 2 channels of daking and 4 of hardy.

Interesting. How would you compare/contrast the Hardy with the Pacifica on vocals & acoustic instruments?

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by adirondack

Interesting. How would you compare/contrast the Hardy with the Pacifica on vocals & acoustic instruments?

For music I would rather use the Pacifica, vocals as well. I mainly use Hardy for voice over. Hardy is clean, Pacifica has a cool color to it, sounds sweet pad in and pushed.

[pktele]

hardy / pacific
acoustic guitar the pacificas have an amazing shine to the top end - articilate without being hard. Coupled with a pleasing midrange bump that makes acoustic guitars sit very well in a dense mix (or soloed) Frankly its hard to beat. The hardys are more of a "what you hear is what you get" pre ( in the best possible way!)

upright bass
that midrange bump / air thing again - with a 414eb on the low side of the f hole or a km 140 up by the finger board that presence sits the bass forward without being loud. check out that link above. FWIW the " reverb" on the piano is the upper mic on the bass - km140 into pacifica into a buzz soc. i carved a little 220 on mix down and compressed with either a 1176 rev f or an mc77 . everyhting in that video except the fiddle was recorded live in two rooms. drums in one room bass and piano in another

next week i can post some newer clips of mixes with acoustic and percussion and bass recorded thru pacificas

For me the pacificas are where i start on just about everything - they are a treat to work with play nicely with condensors and dynamics ( including ribbons) seem bombproof ( not something i can say about my 3124 or dakings) and easy to mix.

the hardy is more neutral but VERY solid and pleasing way. for a particularly strident singer or a brutally honky takamine guitar its likely the hardys

voice over ... depends on talent and mic selection. both work VERY well

fwiw i am not a RAWK guy my thing is roots/ folk /jazz / blues / second line etc - often drum and percussion heavy ( see abover link) but not RAWK

does this help?

[stgaudio]

Originally Posted by garyboy2024

Out of curiosity, has anyone on here tried Seventh Circle Audio's A12 module (API clone) with Tim's SC10 opamp rather than the standard SC25? I know the SC10 is modelled after the AM10 used in the A Designs Pacifica. I'm guessing this would bring out more low mids and round off the top in a pleasant way, but I'd like to hear from someone with experience if possible.

This might be another option for the OP as well, as I'm very impressed by the quality of the SCA modules. I use them next to my Pacifica and they really hold their own.

I've just built 2 sound skulptor mp12 channels. The kits come with optional cinemag I/O trannies and their own in house opamps. I just bought the kit - the cinemag iron and built with EA2622 input, EA2503 output and Gar2520 opamps from Classic API. They sound crazy good and easily edge out the 3124 we've had in. They do still have forward mids the harder you push them but they don't seem as spikey. The beauty of these is they have an output pot so you can hit the input, find the sweet spot for your source and feed out what you want. Can't rate either company enough. Totally stoked.