Converter advice

[Melgueil]

There are several threads going around that are seriously beginning to myth-bust this stuff in a huge way. Converters the least significant. Several years ago, I "upgraded" if you will from a lesser brand x to a converter that is absolutely ûber-hyped on this forum and elsewhere. And so ? No life change. OK it sounds better. and....? I guess "change" is relative too.

That said when I play stuff from my archives done with the other box, they sound fine. This idea of 3k, 4k, 5k converters (often paired with 200€ microphones because the guy had shot his wad on the converter purchase) is nuts. Check out the ultimate converter thread right here on GS. The results are shocking.There is another where a group of Mastering Engineers cannot consistently guess which is which among high end. Granted, a step up from the very bottom is warranted. But these threads "Who`s better Lynx, Symphony, Metric Halo, Lavry" etc go round and round, usually until the mod steps in to stop the ensuing flame war.

Oh and the aforementioned John McLaughlin was at one time (maybe still is?) using M-Audio. Haven`t seen him here lately on GS. Someone want to send him a note to let him know he`s ruining his music ?

Buy what you can afford and be happy with the music you make with it...

Cdlt

[doulos30]

So to say any converters are "life changing" just shows you buy into gear hype more than anything. Honestly, it pains me when bullshit like this perpetuated, because of all the idiot novice engineers who buy into this materialism crap. You want something life changing, eat some LSD or try transcendental meditation or travel to India. Eating magic mushrooms when I was 15 changed my life in a profound way.

you guys go get a free copy of rmaa run a loop back test if you see a flat line low thd and at least -90db cross talk move on with your life

[Johnkenn]

Don't be an uptight moron. He obviously didn't mean it literally.

Originally Posted by unfiltered420

So to say any converters are "life changing" just shows you buy into gear hype more than anything. Honestly, it pains me when bullshit like this perpetuated, because of all the idiot novice engineers who buy into this materialism crap. You want something life changing, eat some LSD or try transcendental meditation or travel to India. Eating magic mushrooms when I was 15 changed my life in a profound way.

But within the context of music, instruments and musicians can change your life, for me it was the tabla and seeing Zakir Hussain and John Mclaughlin in Shakti, and studying under a prominant Indian tabla guru. And when I got a minimoog, the sheer beauty of what could be done with it I could say changed my life.

So I know about life changing experience, and to say something as and meaningless as a converter changed your life shows either you have no real life experience or you are materialist.

[Johnkenn]

Converters are the basic building block of your entire system. I would rather start with good converters and a good mic than anything else.

Originally Posted by Melgueil

There are several threads going around that are seriously beginning to myth-bust this stuff in a huge way. Converters the least significant. Several years ago, I "upgraded" if you will from a lesser brand x to a converter that is absolutely ûber-hyped on this forum and elsewhere. And so ? No life change. OK it sounds better. and....? I guess "change" is relative too.

That said when I play stuff from my archives done with the other box, they sound fine. This idea of 3k, 4k, 5k converters (often paired with 200€ microphones because the guy had shot his wad on the converter purchase) is nuts. Check out the ultimate converter thread right here on GS. The results are shocking.There is another where a group of Mastering Engineers cannot consistently guess which is which among high end. Granted, a step up from the very bottom is warranted. But these threads "Who`s better Lynx, Symphony, Metric Halo, Lavry" etc go round and round, usually until the mod steps in to stop the ensuing flame war.

Oh and the aforementioned John McLaughlin was at one time (maybe still is?) using M-Audio. Haven`t seen him here lately on GS. Someone want to send him a note to let him know he`s ruining his music ?

Buy what you can afford and be happy with the music you make with it...

Cdlt

[Johnkenn]

Originally Posted by yotonic

Wow, that's high praise coming from you JK. Do you have anything of yours you can post. I liked that "Eagles-ish" clip you posted using the Symphony I thought it sounded really nice. It did have its own Symphony "sound signature" that was hard to put a finger on. But it was a pleasing signature for sure.

Actually, I do. Farmed out some steel - ill post here soon.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Johnkenn

Converters are the basic building block of your entire system. I would rather start with good converters and a good mic than anything else.

They're "one of" the basic blocks of course. IMO they come firmly third behind mics and preamps as far as the record chain goes, and behind room and monitors in the playback chain.

[Melgueil]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

They're "one of" the basic blocks of course. IMO they come firmly third behind mics and preamps as far as the record chain goes, and behind room and monitors in the playback chain.

Agree 100% w/ above....

Not sure anyone is saying converters don`t matter. It`s the idea they somehow will, in the absence of the other fundamentals solve the multitude of issues we have to confront.

Again a world class converter will be the first one to tell you just how well your mic and preamps, room treatment and instrument quality combinations are performing - or not - as the case may be. Sorry, placing the conversion first in line is getting it backwards.

Cdlt

[Johnkenn]

It's the sum of ALL those things...I think the order of importance goes like this:

1. Mic
2. ADDA
3. Preamp
4. room

That being said, I have a $1200 mic (Miktek) that I think is fantastic. BUT - most of the time you get what you pay for - occasionally there are delightful exceptions.

[Slikjmuzik]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

They're "one of" the basic blocks of course. IMO they come firmly third behind mics and preamps as far as the record chain goes, and behind room and monitors in the playback chain.

I feel the same, except it sure is nice once you've got a nice mic, preamp, the source and room are right and you can enjoy that extra bit of percentage when the converter isn't getting in the way of everything else you've worked your butt off to refine.

[skybluerental]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I rebuild Apogee here all the time. They do not sound like the RMA products.
They use lesser quality chipsets.

These are not kits, they are built to order, for you, using the analog parts you want. No one else does that. No one else offers the top-o-line BurrBrown converters for this low cost. Most use inferior chip sets from AKM or Crystal.

As for the "looks", I learned something from Stevie Wonder. No one really cares what audio gear looks like, they care what it sounds like. If you don't believe me, put a pretty picture of your gear on your next release and get back to us how many units it sold for you.

You can get the basic PCM1794 DAC for $179. The ADC is $330. Plug them in and use it, no assembly required. USB, AES, Spdif coax or optical.

As for the wood sides, some audio gear uses wood sides, like high end consumer audiophile gear and all those recording consoles everyone loves. No one complains to Trident for the wood sides. Ross puts the money into the quality pcb's and components. Those DAC chips are about twenty bucks each. I'd rather the outside look like crap if the innards are top notch. Better than pretty audio gear you see with crap inside. I suppose he could make it all pretty but that would make them cost as much as the rest. Let me know when Apogee sells a Burrbrown PCM1974/2 DAC for $179.

Users all say the same things to me, they beat out their Mytek, Lavry and Apogee converters. Not bad if you can stomach the wood sides.

a classic post!
the line about stevie made me laugh my ass off!

in all seriousness, the RMA converters are very high quality.
i too have the PCM 1794 DAC and it is in the same class as my RADAR 24.
i paid $260 for mine and got USB, a headphone amp and the top of the line OPA op amps.

got it, plugged it in, it worked flawlessly and sounded fantastic straight out of the box. what more can one ask of a converter?????

i personally love the generally austere appearance and wooden sides on the RMA stuff.
my Neve 5452 desk also has wooden sides.
no one has complained about either one yet..............

[skybluerental]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

They're "one of" the basic blocks of course. IMO they come firmly third behind mics and preamps as far as the record chain goes, and behind room and monitors in the playback chain.

i agree with this statement 100%.

[skybluerental]

Originally Posted by Trev@Circle

Er... Alexander Graham Bell was a Scotsman. As was John Logie Baird who invented the television, Robert Watson-Watt who invented radar, John Dunlop who invented the pneumatic tyre, James Blyth who invented the wind turbine, Robert Anderson who invented the electric car, I could go on... If you are interested in considering that people from other countries also invent things take a look here:

Category:Scottish inventors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also for what its worth, the inventor of the internet was Tim Berners-Lee, an Englishman, as was David Hughes who invented the radio. Makes you wonder what was left to invent really. Standing on the shoulders of giants etc.

hmmmm,
its questionable as to who “invented” radio.
i would say Tesla is probably the one who did more for radio in its infancy than anyone else.
Hughes and Telsa were working on it at almost the exact same time and Telsa took it WAY farther than Hughes...............
It is unlikely that Telsa knew much, if anything, about what Hughes was doing when he began developing his ideas about radio.
In fact, based on my readings, it is likely that Tesla conceived his ideas about radio before Hughes started his studies in 1879.

it is difficult to say who “invented” radio because several people all came up with the basic ideas behind it at the same time.

Telsa was by far the greatest innovator of that era in my opinion.

he was a Serb, but that has nothing to do with him being a great innovator.

[hollowaxis]

Originally Posted by skybluerental

Telsa was by far the greatest innovator of that era in my opinion.

Seeing as you're a Tesla fan... have you been aware of this project?

Let's Build a Goddamn Tesla Museum -- Indiegogo

[skybluerental]

Originally Posted by hollowaxis

Seeing as you're a Tesla fan... have you been aware of this project?

Let's Build a Goddamn Tesla Museum -- Indiegogo

hi there,
yes, i am am aware of this project.

there is already a Tesla museum in Serbia however............

[hollowaxis]

Originally Posted by skybluerental

hi there,
yes, i am am aware of this project.

there is already a Tesla museum in Serbia however............

I only found out about the one in Serbia because it was mentioned by people in relation to this project :p

[vexidz]

for guitars only i would suggest mytek adcs.

[VT-MHE]

Originally Posted by Johnkenn

Converters are the basic building block of your entire system. I would rather start with good converters and a good mic than anything else.

i second this. getting a cheap mxl can actually sound good depending on the model and in some cases arent too far off from a 2 to 3 grand mic. unless you get a ross martin the price you pay for converters in most cases will be what you get. i say start off with something that converts realism as best as possible and everything else will fall into place.

[SoSueMe]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

They're "one of" the basic blocks of course. IMO they come firmly third behind mics and preamps as far as the record chain goes, and behind room and monitors in the playback chain.

Another one in total agreement here. But I will add that you don't have to be nearly as selective with AD/DA or spend nearly as much as you might think, even though it has high importance in the chain.

Many will swear up and down that converter A sounds better/different than converter B or vice versa. That is, until a thorough scientific double-blind test shows they were completely flip-flopping between the two, unknowingly providing the same convictions to both converters 50% of the time.

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I've never used one in anger, so I really can't comment!

?

I don't follow....are you saying I let the little maudio box make me "angry".

No, they just sound like crap to my ears, or I should say the ones I have heard.

You just find something else to work with is all.

john

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by ShadowAMD

I find it odd that many people dislike MOTU converters, when there has been a lot of info on how they are pretty high spec for what they are.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I find it interesting. Unless they are just built poorly and like cars you get a lemon or a catch?

I was stating my experience with them running on PC. On Mac, they don't seem to have the issue I was having. It is a LONG freaking story. I don't actually think it was the converters themselves, but the drivers that were the actual issue.

You could listen to the a to d conversion in their "cuemix" software, sounded almost like it did at the preamp / console output. Very clear, and open. On playback, definitely something missing. Dark top, almost "fuzzy", but subtley so. It took a week to start to notice, but once you locked on to the problem, you could easily hear it, and it was frustrating as hell. Never got it sorted out, and it was a shame, because their 24 i/o setup was really cool. So was cuemix actually.

Took a year and a half trying to sort this issue out on three PC's, a friend's 24 i/o, you name it. Calls to MOTU, emails to the engineer / designer of the box, software changes, all kinds of tweaks, pci bus tweaks, if you can think of it, we tried it. Running pci apps like doubledawg etc. Geez, what a nightmare.

It was subtle enough that is somebody maybe had poor monitoring or something, they may have never noticed it, and thought the culprit was elsewhere. Finally, to make sure we weren't crazy, we ran another set of converters and another machine, capturing the sound of both the tracking via cuemix, and the playback via daw through the MOTU.

Both coming from the same converter, both post conversion, sounded WAY different.

If it had sounded like it did in the cuemix console post a to d, I would have kept them. At some point, you have to move on if it ain't working though.

john

[unfiltered420]

Originally Posted by Melgueil

Agree 100% w/ above....

Not sure anyone is saying converters don`t matter. It`s the idea they somehow will, in the absence of the other fundamentals solve the multitude of issues we have to confront.

Again a world class converter will be the first one to tell you just how well your mic and preamps, room treatment and instrument quality combinations are performing - or not - as the case may be. Sorry, placing the conversion first in line is getting it backwards.

Cdlt

I am saying they don't really matter these days. Maybe back in the 90's, but today the tech is completely plateaued and homogenized. Sure you can do super precise a/b tests and maybe pick out subtle differences between converters, but unless you have converters that actually change the sound for the better in some overtly magical way, some of the cheapest converters will do the job perfectly.

I am doing all analog mixes (live electronic) with no converters whatsoever, (not even verbs), and printing them to 1/4" tape. Just as a test, I also printed to Logic via mackie 1640i interface, pro tools HD (second generation I think)and Prism ADA all at 96k/24. All three digital prints sounded identical, and indistinguishable from the mix on Meyer sound farfields and NS10's.

Just one test, and I don't really take stock in A/B's, but what this tells me is that converters are completely arbitrary and benign. You may be able to squeeze a tiny bit more quality out of converters with euphonic analog circuitry, but you are going to pay out the ass.

[mood_shifter]

If you're doing electronic music using samples then of course converters are going to make less difference. If you're doing acoustic music with great gear, instruments, room (atmosphere) and mics, I think the difference is pretty big. I have the 192's from my Digi 192HD Rig, an Apogee 800 and a UA 2192. I switch them around a lot depending on what sound I'm looking for (the 2192 being a favorite for acoustic guitar and smoother vocals). They are all different. And like everything else, it's how things stack up downriver and when tons of tracks are involved.

It's like all the stuff we buy. I spent years trying to get mics to sound as good as I wanted them to and went through a ton of clones and and mid priced mics figuring I could do it. Eventually I kept selling three or four mid priced mics until I got some of the classics. They've made a big difference. But it's because it was apparently important to what I was trying to achieve sonically, and that varies for everyone.

If you think Golden age Pres are as good as a real 1073 then buy cheap converters. If you think you hear the difference with the way you record music, then buy better ones. The difference is there, it just depends upon if it matters with the kind of stuff you do.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT

?

I don't follow....are you saying I let the little maudio box make me "angry".

No, they just sound like crap to my ears, or I should say the ones I have heard.

You just find something else to work with is all.

john

"in anger" in this context means I haven't done enough serious work on them to have an informed opinion. My experience of m-audio is people bringing writing rigs into the studio - I don't know the material, I don't use the rig myself, and I'm only hearing it briefly - to express an opinion on the quality of conversion thus would be foolish.

Doesn't stop others of course, but there you go!

[CompEq]

Originally Posted by Schumannz

I just sent an email inquiring about 8/8 I/O through Ross Martin website.

Just wondering if you got a response on this. Also very interested in an 8/8.

[Schumannz]

Originally Posted by CompEq

Just wondering if you got a response on this. Also very interested in an 8/8.

Sadly No...

But i heard they are real slow with replies...so still waiting.

[CompEq]

Originally Posted by Schumannz

Sadly No...

That's cool, I can be patient, too. Sounds like a great product, though. You gotta report back when you get a response. We gearslutz are an anxious bunch!

[Schumannz]

Originally Posted by CompEq

That's cool, I can be patient, too. Sounds like a great product, though. You gotta report back when you get a response. We gearslutz are an anxious bunch!

I surely will....and i am waiting very patiently ()

[unfiltered420]

Originally Posted by mood_shifter

If you're doing electronic music using samples then of course converters are going to make less difference. If you're doing acoustic music with great gear, instruments, room (atmosphere) and mics, I think the difference is pretty big. I have the 192's from my Digi 192HD Rig, an Apogee 800 and a UA 2192. I switch them around a lot depending on what sound I'm looking for (the 2192 being a favorite for acoustic guitar and smoother vocals). They are all different. And like everything else, it's how things stack up downriver and when tons of tracks are involved.

It's like all the stuff we buy. I spent years trying to get mics to sound as good as I wanted them to and went through a ton of clones and and mid priced mics figuring I could do it. Eventually I kept selling three or four mid priced mics until I got some of the classics. They've made a big difference. But it's because it was apparently important to what I was trying to achieve sonically, and that varies for everyone.

If you think Golden age Pres are as good as a real 1073 then buy cheap converters. If you think you hear the difference with the way you record music, then buy better ones. The difference is there, it just depends upon if it matters with the kind of stuff you do.

Of course the 2192 are exceptional converters, because of their analog circuitry foremost. That is my point, its ridiculous that people focus on the benign miniscule difference in converters, rather than really affecting the sound with analog gear. I have heard the digi 192, a standard converter and digital really can't get much better. Manufacturers can only produce better converter boxes using great analog circuitry.

[Jolly_Rogers]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I rebuild Apogee here all the time. They do not sound like the RMA products.
They use lesser quality chipsets.

These are not kits, they are built to order, for you, using the analog parts you want. No one else does that. No one else offers the top-o-line BurrBrown converters for this low cost. Most use inferior chip sets from AKM or Crystal.

As for the "looks", I learned something from Stevie Wonder. No one really cares what audio gear looks like, they care what it sounds like. If you don't believe me, put a pretty picture of your gear on your next release and get back to us how many units it sold for you.

You can get the basic PCM1794 DAC for $179. The ADC is $330. Plug them in and use it, no assembly required. USB, AES, Spdif coax or optical.

As for the wood sides, some audio gear uses wood sides, like high end consumer audiophile gear and all those recording consoles everyone loves. No one complains to Trident for the wood sides. Ross puts the money into the quality pcb's and components. Those DAC chips are about twenty bucks each. I'd rather the outside look like crap if the innards are top notch. Better than pretty audio gear you see with crap inside. I suppose he could make it all pretty but that would make them cost as much as the rest. Let me know when Apogee sells a Burrbrown PCM1974/2 DAC for $179.

Users all say the same things to me, they beat out their Mytek, Lavry and Apogee converters. Not bad if you can stomach the wood sides.

Hey Jim, thanks for sharing this info. Do you have any opinion about Black Lion Audio's converters?

[Jolly_Rogers]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Big f'ing +1.

Other nations were so innovative, they moved continents and "founded" America (as you know it) of course....come back when you've got 2k+ years of history, and we can talk of which nations are "innovative".

PS when we have a "world series" of a sport, we also invite other countries to participate....

The best players in the world enter the league in the united states if they are good enough, since the best players in the world already play in the american baseball league it is fair to call it a world series since players from any country are welcome to join the league. Players from Japan, South America, the Caribbean and any other country that wants to come to the USA to play if they are good enough. When a league is comprised of the worlds best players inviting other country's teams to play would be a downgrade.

British people left England because according to them it was full of a bunch of horrible people they wanted nothing to do with and it was an awful place to live, they settled the American continent and then several hundred years later their descendants having nothing to do with England other than paying taxes to its king declared themselves to be officially independent having no need for England's outdated system. Then they defeated England's better equipped and greater numbering army with superior strategy and tactics. England admitted defeat and lost. The United States was formed by people who had never been to England. Britain has many great inventions and seems like a lovely country, but they shouldn't be given credit for the creation of the united states.

It was American's who discovered electricity and invented the airplane, the photograph, the computer, the electric guitar, the atomic bomb, landed on the moon, broke the sound barrier, then there is the hubble space telescope, the mars rovers. The other fellow who mentioned "not much else to invent" was indeed ignorant. England is a great nation, but the inventions and accomplishments are not quite as outstanding as the United States, both are very good though. Jim didn't say Britain never contributed anything, he just said America has invented and discovered things, and its true. America admires Britain in a lot of ways, no need to be bitter.

The 2,000 year history thing is a bit inaccurate. People have lived on that island for over 2,000 years, but not the ancestors of the people who currently live there. The current population is mostly descendants of Norman's and Saxon's who actually originate from other parts of Europe. Previous to that there were the Druids and other groups, it is theorized that they fled to Ireland to escape the Norman's and Saxons who were coming from France and Germany, this was about 500 AD, so neither does England as you know it have a 2,000 plus year history. The United States also has had people living here for over 2,000 years, a rich history of native cultures and tribes, consider researching it if you are going to make outlandish claims regarding its history. Yes, i was a history major.