Summing Box For RnB

[cornwall6000]

Originally Posted by daoriginalqupes

if you connect lets say the tonebuss to a patchbay, can you not patch in your favourit compressors eq's etc into selected channels anyway? I'm not really sure, I'm new to this whole summing thing

hey da: i'm not intimately familiar with the rascal box, only know that most everyone who's heard it says it sounds great. if you'd want to use it the way i use my summing box, it'd have to have insert points across all 16 of it's channels. don't know if it does or not.

and of course, yes, you can patch outboard across any of your lynx's convertor channels. you can do that with the tonebuss, or any summing box, or even no summing box involved.
you can even leave certain favorite pieces "hard-patched" across certain channels, like i do.

i'm just saying that on my particular box, i rarely need to pull patch cords, reach for bypass switches to a/b, reassign DAW channels, etc. to seamlessly integrate my outboard stuff.
the box's i use the most are just normalled across each of my summer's 16 insert points (really 18 with the master buss!). and they rarely "move". so all i have to do to have them inline or not is turn that channel's insert switch on or off. one flick and i'm twiddlin' knobs.

as for the 8816, man oh man, i spent some hard time with that piece and i'd never characterize it as "trash". it had a fantastic sound. super low noisefloor. tons of gain. and again, the sound. a beautiful sheen to it. about my only practical complaint with the 8816 was that the vu's weren't backlit. (my stoodyo's dark!) i will concede that the 88XX line doesn't necessarily exude the properties of battleship construction. the switches don't feel like the heavy, military grade stuff on my old giltronics tube pre, for example. yes, the knobs are plastic, and i'll admit that the word "flimsy" may have entered the outside reaches of my mind while turning them. yes, they try to cram too much stuff onto the faceplates.

but regardless of any perceptions.... i not only had zero issues with the 8816 the two or three weeks i had it, i've also had zero issues with a pair of 8801's i've owned (and used, uh, HEAVILY) for four years now. zero issues. not even the faintest crackle on any pot or switch. i can't comment on ams/neve's service because i haven't needed any. if you see a lot of users posting here and in other forums about actual problems they've had in their actual owning of these units, i'd say that would be cause for worry.

[daoriginalqupes]

Originally Posted by VT-MHE

good idea. thats truly the best thing is to be patient and take your time. i would like for you to meet your goal and get what you want the first time around, rather than you dealing with the hassel of going through several setups for you to discover what you really needed. thats what were here for at GS is to give you insight and save you some trouble, time and heartache lol. this stuff can be a real pain and journey. contact vintage king or dsp doctor and see what you can work out in regards to getting demo units and such.

if your after a specific sound keep certain things in mind. timbo and darkchild both use neve vr boards, tims is modified. everything is the sum of all parts. from tracking to the back end. the sound of a console is about the multiplue stages the audio goes through till it hits the summing buss. this isnt the same thing with just converters and a summing mixer. which is why i also myself ended up with a console for what i do. but that may not be the solution for you. a console is a big commitment, in space (in most cases), maintanence/upkeep, power/electricity etc.... if you can justify this then have at it. but it appears your looking for a detailed distinct sound with a light color in it. in that case for your back end if your going mix you would benefit from using lynx aurora or apogee symphony io converters, icmix690/rnd 5059/gr mixmaster 20 for summing and to finalize the power you would need api 2500 or another meaty buss comp on the back end. if you like the 8816 that much, you can have a tech build you something similar and alot better for alot less than what you spend on a regular one. pm me for some ideas and info on that if you'd like. best of luck sir!

Once again thanks, I really appreciate your advice. I will definitely have a listen to the 5059 and the mix690 as soon as these guys get them down here or, I think I will ask DSP Doctor or Vintage King if they can sort out demos of these units for me. As for the 8816, I have never even used or heard it, just saw a really great price on one and thats it to be honest.

[daoriginalqupes]

But seriously tho, you should listen to the Tonebuss if you haven't already, I think it sounds good.

Search Tonebuss, and find the thread with the shootout between the Folcrom and the Tonebuss. Let me know what you think if its not too much trouble.

[brgprod]

FWIW Shadow Hills also makes a summing mixer called the Equinox thats gives you options on the output transformers . I just had a RnB song mixed where the engineer used this unit and it sounded pretty impressive.

[daoriginalqupes]

Originally Posted by cornwall6000

hey da: i'm not intimately familiar with the rascal box, only know that most everyone who's heard it says it sounds great. if you'd want to use it the way i use my summing box, it'd have to have insert points across all 16 of it's channels. don't know if it does or not.

and of course, yes, you can patch outboard across any of your lynx's convertor channels. you can do that with the tonebuss, or any summing box, or even no summing box involved.
you can even leave certain favorite pieces "hard-patched" across certain channels, like i do.

i'm just saying that on my particular box, i rarely need to pull patch cords, reach for bypass switches to a/b, reassign DAW channels, etc. to seamlessly integrate my outboard stuff.
the box's i use the most are just normalled across each of my summer's 16 insert points (really 18 with the master buss!). and they rarely "move". so all i have to do to have them inline or not is turn that channel's insert switch on or off. one flick and i'm twiddlin' knobs.

as for the 8816, man oh man, i spent some hard time with that piece and i'd never characterize it as "trash". it had a fantastic sound. super low noisefloor. tons of gain. and again, the sound. a beautiful sheen to it. about my only practical complaint with the 8816 was that the vu's weren't backlit. (my stoodyo's dark!) i will concede that the 88XX line doesn't necessarily exude the properties of battleship construction. the switches don't feel like the heavy, military grade stuff on my old giltronics tube pre, for example. yes, the knobs are plastic, and i'll admit that the word "flimsy" may have entered the outside reaches of my mind while turning them. yes, they try to cram too much stuff onto the faceplates.

but regardless of any perceptions.... i not only had zero issues with the 8816 the two or three weeks i had it, i've also had zero issues with a pair of 8801's i've owned (and used, uh, HEAVILY) for four years now. zero issues. not even the faintest crackle on any pot or switch. i can't comment on ams/neve's service because i haven't needed any. if you see a lot of users posting here and in other forums about actual problems they've had in their actual owning of these units, i'd say that would be cause for worry.

the tonebuss dose not have any inserts this is why I asked if I could do it the way I described. I don't mind patching things really, as long as I can incorporate certain choice pieces. As for the neve, the best thing for me is to compare with all the other gear on my list, because there are lots of mixed opinions about the box and I need to see for myself what it does to my music. As I said before, I hated the api 512 which everybody raves about but it never suited my voice. I'm a very fussy guy and it has to sound right to me.

[daoriginalqupes]

Originally Posted by brgprod

FWIW Shadow Hills also makes a summing mixer called the Equinox thats gives you options on the output transformers . I just had a RnB song mixed where the engineer used this unit and it sounded pretty impressive.

a friend of mine uses that unit and I remember him shopping around for a box to use for summing. I think he just used the monitor section mostly, maybe the pres too, so I never looked at that box again.

[cornwall6000]

Originally Posted by daoriginalqupes

I think I will ask DSP Doctor

adam is one of those dudes where, over time, i've just learned to pay close attention to what he has to say in these forums. his thoughts are always well-considered and well written. that alone is solid gold 'round these parts.
to the point where it's a pain when he (and others as knowledgable and thoughtful as him) change their avatars, as my eye has to "relearn" which posts to move to (and which to skip through) when trying to cut through the clutter of a crowded thread.

i've acquired gear from him only on occasion - and in that capacity he's super thorough and honest as well - just saying look out for his words on the forums. he's a good one.

[daoriginalqupes]

Adam aka if you can help me out here please PM me thanks

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by cornwall6000

adam is one of those dudes where, over time, i've just learned to pay close attention to what he has to say in these forums. his thoughts are always well-considered and well written. that alone is solid gold 'round these parts.
to the point where it's a pain when he (and others as knowledgable and thoughtful as him) change their avatars, as my eye has to "relearn" which posts to move to (and which to skip through) when trying to cut through the clutter of a crowded thread.

i've acquired gear from him only on occasion - and in that capacity he's super thorough and honest as well - just saying look out for his words on the forums. he's a good one.

Thanks so much for your kind words, they are highly appreciated. I'll try and leave my avatar alone from here on out.

Originally Posted by daoriginalqupes

Adam aka if you can help me out here please PM me thanks

PM sent,

I love questions!

I took down the DSP server last night from them all!!!

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell

Th
I love questions!

!

What the heck is Pep?

-R

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

What the heck is Pep?

-R

Way to go, OFF topic there Rick,

I would advise you take your question to a JCF AD8 thread, so we don't confuse anyone looking for this type of "high end" info.

[RKrizman]

Ha, heaven forbid I should derail another SUMMIN BOX THREAD !!

But point well taken, as I realized that's a feature of their A/D, not their D/A.

-R

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

Ha, heaven forbid I should derail another SUMMIN BOX THREAD !!

But point well taken, as I realized that's a feature of their D/A, not their A/D.

-R

You should do whatever you want Rick!! As will I. But please Let me finally correct that above, as P/E/P, is a proprietary feature of the AD8, Eight Channel AD converter.

Carry on now, pretty please!?

[RKrizman]

Accidentally misspoke, post corrected.

-R

[RKrizman]

Originally Posted by daoriginalqupes

So anyway these are boxes I have been reading about, looking at, listening to audio samples, and narrowed it down to

-Dangerous 2Buss
-Inward Connection Mix690
-Pheonix Audio Nicerizer 16MK II
-Rascal Audio Tonebuss - 24 chan
-Neve Portico 5059 Satellite

Just to reference the OP, here's the topic at hand.

-R

[cornwall6000]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

Just to reference the OP, here's the topic at hand.

-R

and just to reference where we've ended up with the topic at hand:

many people have given the thumbs up to many of the boxes (and their requisite tonal coloration) the o.p. mentions. o.p. will try to get his hands/ears on as many of these summers as possible, through adam or one of the other reputable vendors at his service - and make the best, most qualified decision.

nice!

[Igotsoul4u]

Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell

Got a few guys doing this style of music using these, and they love em. A HUGE sounding box that replaces the need for LOTS of electronics [mic amps, monitor/speaker control, talkback]...It absolutely is a MINI CONSOLE, that was designed to be put right in front of your sweet spot, and facilitates a certain kind of front end and back end workflow for tracking and mixing. Running through the MM20 gives you a large "weighted" footprint, with all the iron inside, and it has crazy amounts of headroom, and really great image width too.

whoa!! great river summing. I never saw this!!

[solidstate]

Originally Posted by work2do

The sound of the x-rack and aws is not what you hear on countless hits. That's the 9000 and 4000. I have owned or worked on 9000 or 4000 for 20 years and we currently have a matrix in our c room. We demo'd a 924. They don't sound the least bit like the 9000/4000 you hear on countless records.

I would not get the Neve or Tonebuss. Too mushy IMO. The Chandler Mini Mixer is used by Tony Maserati, Fabian Marasciullo (when he does ITB), and a few other Engineers who do hybrid and mix r&b/hip hop/pop records. Mix690 works well also.

To be honest i never worked on a 9k and i can't comment on that.. BUT the AWS 900 has a good number of hits under his belt.. Just ask tricky stewart Again, aws and xrack sound exactly the same.. So for me was a no brainer when i moved out from my former studio. I ended up buying the xrack for summing, G stereo comp, 2 mc mix, mc transport and a malone mc desk. After almost two years working with this setup I can safely say that the sound/workflow is just as good as the aws 900 one.

Now, the 4k obviously sound VERY different(not necessarily better), but at the moment there is no summing option unless you buy a cut down console..

I did try all colored type like Neve, chandler, tubetech but like you said they are too mushy. The chandler mixer was the "fattest" but was waaaay to much on every track. I believe those engineer you mention use it as "tone bus" not to mix the whole record.. But hey, horses for courses i guess. To the OP: demo a few different units, do a couple of blind tests and pick the one that sounds better to YOUR ears!

[daoriginalqupes]

Thanks solid state, thats exactly what I'm going to do, Check out a few units.
But honestly I think I am more leaning towards the tonebuss without trying based on the shootout I heard and also, all the positive reviews. I never ever heard of the unit before and it came into my life for a reason with nothing but positivity and 24 channels lol. Also the guys a great guy too.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by daoriginalqupes

Can you not tell that I am being sarcastic? Do you really thing that I am going to respond sensibly to that guy? Stupid question, I guess you obviously do

Originally Posted by VT-MHE

im sorry i didnt know what i was reading had a tone. didnt know you werent serious.

You see, that's the whole problem with the Internet and digital. It's perfectly clean, because you get exactly out of it what you put in, but it still doesn't sound good. It's those damned pre-conversion filters that are the problem. Personally, I find them to be very harsh sounding.

[work2do]

Originally Posted by solidstate

To be honest i never worked on a 9k and i can't comment on that.. BUT the AWS 900 has a good number of hits under his belt.. Just ask tricky stewart !

His songs are usually mixed by Jaycen Joshua, Sam Thomas, Dave Pensado, or Manny Marroquin. All guys who mix on SSL 9k.

By no means am I putting down the sound of the AWS. It sounds good. It's just not the sound we've heard on the countless hits of the past which were done on 9k or 4k. The way things are going (ITB/Hybrid) I have no doubt it will be used on more and more future hits.

Originally Posted by solidstate

The chandler mixer was the "fattest" but was waaaay to much on every track. I believe those engineer you mention use it as "tone bus" not to mix the whole record..

Maserati, Fabian, and others sum everything directly through it. Very easy to verify this. Both have stated it on this forum and other places. The chandler is only too much if you push it too much.

As mentioned above the Great River Mixmaster 20 may work for the OP too. I've heard "great" things about it but do not own one.

[daoriginalqupes]

Doesn't Tony Maserati run the tracks thru the chandler then sums thru the Dangerous 2Buss?

[daoriginalqupes]

Right!!!

this is how tony does it



Lets start with summing analog and where it goes from there...
1. I take 'blended' outputs from Tools into the Chandler.

out1/2>Drums, out 3>kik, out 4>snr, out 5/6>Pno/rhodes/wurli, out 7/8>Guitars, out 9>Bass, out 11>LeadVox, out 12>Lead Adlib, out 13/14>BGVs, out 17/18>MoreBGVs, out 19/20>Synths or more Keys, out 21/22>Strings, out 23/24>Extra, out 29/30>Internal FX,

I have a bunch of channels of Hardware Inserts which are patched permanently, so I can select an outboard comp or eq and it'll show up Pre-Fader in Tools. So there is an extra step of D/A-A/D happening only on Pro-Tools tracks I choose to put a plug-in on.

On my Neve console (outputs 41-48 from Tools) I have inserts (including the board eq) patched permanently. This way I can choose the summing based on the Sonic Quality of the outboard insert.

Everything from the Neve and Dangerous 2Bus gets brought into the Chandler inputs 15/16.

The Chandler output goes straight to my Pendulum ES8 for mild compression and then into the Lavry 4496 and digitally back into Tools.

Everything is locked via the Big Ben clock.

I'll get back to this tomorrow night if that's okay...

Thanks,
t
__________________
Tony Maserati

Official Website of Tony Maserati

[daoriginalqupes]

He also says this




I have 1 Chandler mixer (16ins x 2outs), 1 Dangerous 2Bus (16ins x 2outs) 1 Neve Melborne console (10ins x 2outs, as well as individual inserts on channels) The Dangerous and Neve are plugged into the Chandler 15/16 and 25/26 respectively...

Regarding the summing question, I've found that the differences are negligible; at the top level (by that I mean, a top engineer, mixing in analog and one mixing in digital with identical tracks, will display only their personal creative difference, not those of their equipment) I believe this because I am competing daily with top engineers working in all varieties of formats and configurations. Clients/audiences are choosing based on what moves them. Audiences, pre-autotune, would rarely have been able to identify an artist with inaccurate pitch. Now it's used incessantly. As professionals, we want to believe our audience hear and understand the details, but really IT'S ABOUT EMOTION AND ENERGY! (of course there are exceptions to this rule, but those are the specific parameters of individual genre's)

[work2do]

Originally Posted by daoriginalqupes

Regarding the summing question, I've found that the differences are negligible; at the top level (by that I mean, a top engineer, mixing in analog and one mixing in digital with identical tracks, will display only their personal creative difference, not those of their equipment) I believe this because I am competing daily with top engineers working in all varieties of formats and configurations. Clients/audiences are choosing based on what moves them. Audiences, pre-autotune, would rarely have been able to identify an artist with inaccurate pitch. Now it's used incessantly. As professionals, we want to believe our audience hear and understand the details, but really IT'S ABOUT EMOTION AND ENERGY! (of course there are exceptions to this rule, but those are the specific parameters of individual genre's)

I'm gonna be honest with you. Unless you have loads of outboard, you don't need a summing box for hip hop/r&b/pop/dance. Unless you want one of the boxes with a sound like the Chandler, Mix690, Great River. ITB works fine. There are many records from those genres mixed totally ITB by great engineers.

Two of the more well known all ITB mixers for these genres are:

Serban Ghenea Serban Ghenea - Album Credits

Phil Tan Phil Tan - Album Credits

Robert Orton breaks down his Lady Gaga Mix http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar0...es/it_0309.htm

[cornwall6000]

have to admit that i got a mild yet satisfying chuckle from 'ol phil's promo shot there....

have a look.

also, i've definitely heard of "rihanna".

[VT-MHE]

Originally Posted by work2do

I'm gonna be honest with you. Unless you have loads of outboard, you don't need a summing box for hip hop/r&b/pop/dance. Unless you want one of the boxes with a sound like the Chandler, Mix690, Great River. ITB works fine. There are many records from those genres mixed totally ITB by great engineers.

Two of the more well known all ITB mixers for these genres are:

Serban Ghenea Serban Ghenea - Album Credits

Phil Tan Phil Tan - Album Credits

Robert Orton breaks down his Lady Gaga Mix Secrets Of The Mix Engineers: Robert Orton

Itb works fine for you and others I'm sure but not for everyone. He wanted a summing mixer/box for a reason and I think in stead if encouraging him to switch to itb you should allow him to discover what works best for him on his own. And just because serban G and Phil tan do amazing mixes itb doesn't mean everyone else can get any where close to their results. People use itb otb and hybrid and come up with great mixes in the genre, I think we should stick to advising to the op's original question.

[solidstate]

Originally Posted by work2do

His songs are usually mixed by Jaycen Joshua, Sam Thomas, Dave Pensado, or Manny Marroquin. All guys who mix on SSL 9k

Right. Still.. plenty of hits are mixed on duality/AWS. Ken Lewis mixed(and still do) A LOT of #1 hip hop and RnB songs on that board.

Originally Posted by work2do

Maserati, Fabian, and others sum everything directly through it. Very easy to verify this. Both have stated it on this forum and other places. The chandler is only too much if you push it too much.

Again. Horses for corses. For example, I like to keep my mixbus puncy and clean so I can 'color' with my neves or my tube gear only the tracks that need fattening. That's why the OP should check out a few units before spending 3+K on a piece of gear to see what really works for his particular style/workflow

[work2do]

Originally Posted by VT-MHE

Itb works fine for you and others I'm sure but not for everyone. He wanted a summing mixer/box for a reason and I think in stead if encouraging him to switch to itb you should allow him to discover what works best for him on his own. And just because serban G and Phil tan do amazing mixes itb doesn't mean everyone else can get any where close to their results. People use itb otb and hybrid and come up with great mixes in the genre, I think we should stick to advising to the op's original question.

The OP has been in a consistent back and forth with me and asked my opinions and experience, so i believe he can speak for himself and does not need a spokesman. I have indeed worked with a few of the guys he has mentioned and I do work on 9000, duality, and have worked on AWS. We have Chandler, mix690 and dangerous boxes here when working ITB w/ outboard. Just trying to give him my insight for a guy that seems to just be starting out with gear purchases. Many think they need summing boxes because of the marketing and gear pimpin that has taken hold on the internet. I was showing him that many are doing it totally ITB and relevant to the styles and artists he asked about.

Originally Posted by solidstate

Right. Still.. plenty of hits are mixed on duality/AWS. Ken Lewis mixed(and still do) A LOT of #1 hip hop and RnB songs on that board.

Whoa. You went from AWS and X-Rack and tried to slide Duality in there to make your point. C'mon dude.

[cornwall6000]

Originally Posted by work2do

Just trying to give him my insight for a guy that seems to just be starting out with gear purchases. Many think they need summing boxes because of the marketing and gear pimpin that has taken hold on the internet

perhaps. but that doesn't seem to be the case here. OP has said several times he's interested in across-the-board coloration. ergo, his interest in boxes like the rascal, rolls, mix 690, etc.... (if it were possible and practical to easily achieve these units' results ITB, why do you own your mix690, dangerous, etc?) additionally, he seems to have a firm grasp of what any number of these summing boxes do, if not how they all sound. also, i don't know where you got the impression that dude is "just starting out" purchasing gear. i consider an SSL G-comp, a TK Audio BC-1, an ADL CL1000 and an Avalon 737 to be quite a bit of outboard, particularly in this ITB era. he also cites future purchases like pacifica pres, an ES8, an MDP-1, Distressors, 2254's etc....

in light of all that, i'm not sure where the instructional value of suggesting he might want to stay fully ITB is. he might also want a pony, but that's not what he's asking on in this specific thread.