Loud Fender Twin

[ccbqm]

Is there any way to lower the power output of my Fender Twin 65 re-issue? After using the amp on the road for 6 years, I have fallen in love with it and dont want to buy another one just to use at home if I dont have to. Only a Fender Twin is great for 10,000 seat venues, but a little much for my apartment!
-Dave

[AdamJay]

remove the middle two 6L6 power tubes.

brings it down to 50 watts.

[against88]

marshall makes something call the "power break", i think other people make something similiar...maybe called the "power soak". i think it just lowers the signal of the amp. between power output and speaker.

never used it. but like the idea. i have a newer fender twin for the band i play in. i made them get it because it has a 1/4 power switch. goes from 100watts (waay too much) to 25 watts (still too much). some people are obsessed with watts.

-will

[ccbqm]

Thanks alot! Adamjay, would removing those two tubes hurt the tone at all?

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by AdamJay

remove the middle two 6L6 power tubes.

brings it down to 50 watts.

Great Idea. If you know how to rebias.
Otherwise youll fry the amp

just buy one of these if you have an fx loop they are $10
don't buy a power brake

http://cgi.ebay.com/VOLUME-BOX-FOR-M...QQcmdZViewItem

[pineyb]

It'll drop wattage from 100 to 50-60 watts. You'll
be able to turn up a little more and it compresses the sound a little.
Ideally you should rebias the two remaining tubes if you're going to do this..... it won't hurt the amp if you don't rebias, but it might run hot depending on how it is biased now. Pulling tubes changes the impedance that the amps wants to see. Disconnecting one speaker solves the problem. If you do pull tubes, pull the two inner or the two outer, the former being preferable. So you still have a nearly 60 watt amp, which is still going to be pretty loud.....

[ccbqm]

What exaclty is re-biasing? How do I do this?

[MasterTrax]

"Loud Fender Twin"

A Loud one! Isn't that the only kind?

Hey man, pulling two tubes will lower the output a lot less to your ears than you might imagine. It might give you a tone you like better, though. Try it and see.

Do yourself a giant favor and check out a THD hotplate. You can run your amp at near full power and use the hotplate to attenuate the volume to the level you want. ALL attenuators suck a little high end freqs, but the hotplate is the least "freq-sucking" of them all. I tried every one on the market that I am aware of and there is no contest in my picky-assed and obsessive opinion.

I used one with very satisfying results until I achieved enough isolation in my tracking room to crank up and record at live levels. That's the best solution of all for me. Like the camera commercial says, it unleashes my muse.

Or is it my mucous?

M

[pineyb]

Go here for a good explaination of biasing.

http://aga.rru.com/TechTips/disp.cgi?file=LV/BiasAdj.tt

If you don't know what you are doing, get a tech to do it.... you can kill yourself messing around inside a tube amp.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by MasterTrax

ALL attenuators suck a little high end freqs, but the hotplate is the least "freq-sucking" of them all.

Aha, so *that's* what they mean by "Blood-Sucking Freqs" !

[crypticglobe]

THD Hot Plate is your best bet. The sound better than anything else out there.

[RUSCO]

Great Idea. If you know how to rebias.
Otherwise youll fry the amp

That's rubbish ! I have removed the two outer tubes of a Fender Twin before with NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER.
I believe the Sovtek output tubes can withstand greater differences in bias voltage.That's what the Tech said anyway.

[midnightsun]

I have been pulling tubes on amps for more than 20 years to decrease the wattage, including a blackface twin, and I have never bothered to rebias the amp because I go back and forth. Sometimes I pull a couple of tubes because it changes the tone of an amp. Never "fried" an amp nor have I ever heard of an amp "frying" from doing this. I am not sure what exactly would fry!!! granted the tubes might take a thrashing. If you find that it reduces the volume enough for you then have it rebiased.

If you are going to learn to rebias you should have someone show you or roll up your sleeves and do a bunch of reading. It is not a quick answer.

My experience with the twin is that even with the tubes removed it is still too loud for the home. The loudest amp I want for my home is a Deluxe. I have seem some mighty sweet used Princetons for 250 dollars. My favorie home setup is a 5 watt amp that I run wide open into one of my Twin 12" speakers. I can grind away without sending my family running. I personally have a little Mini Cat but a Champ would easily do.

[Knastratt]

I'll second the HotPlate. Works really well. The only reason I sold it was getting a UniValve. With a built in HP!

[grahluk]

nother +1 for the hotplate. Will it alter the tone? Yes. Not noticably on the first few clicks. When you get down to where the trim control becomes active you do lose a touch of sparkle but you're also probably putting headphone level signal into those 12" speakers. 'Course your going to lose something. At low volume you can then just tweak to taste to compensate a little bit. It won't be balls out at the arena but you should be good for playing at home.

A Fender Twin full on is my all time favorite amp. Owned a couple. Used to play with a guy that had a Hiwatt 50. When I turned down to match him volume wise I lost the tone I loved. I tried pulling tubes also. Never hurt the amp but didn't really get me where I wanted to be. Wish the hotplate was around then. I wouldn't have sold my Twin. It's been a long time since I've been deep into tweaking amps but IIRC you don't have to rebias from pulling tubes. Pulling one pair will not be a short term problem. What does happen is the primary of the output transformer now sees a source that is not the correct impedance for it. Kind of like driving a long distance in a gear too high for the speed. Not a real issue as long as you're not leadfooting it. The analogy would be that if you run for years on just 1 pair of tubes and run the thing into meltdown everytime you play it will surely affect tube life and possibly transformer life. IMO a Twin needs to be unrestrained at full volume. If you want small tone go for a small amp and keep the twin for playing out. If you can't part with the Twin go for the hotplate.

[feyshay]

In regards to biasing. You should be able to pull out tubes and put the same tubes back into the original positions, right? However, if you were going to replace the tubes with a new duet, you'd have to rebias. You only have to worry about this with power amp tubes.
Correct me if I'm wrong on the above. I'd love to not have to take my very heavy Super Reverb to a tech when replacing power tubes.
The hotplate sounds like an option for the Super Reverb. This thing is very loud and does not distort at all. In fact, it just gets a bit harmonic sounding--quite nice. I'll probably just stick with overdrive.
There's also this attenuator, although it is said to not be as bright as the hotplate.
https://weberspeakerscom.secure.poww...eber/atten.htm

One more question. (This will definitely show my ignorance of this whole subject.) When at home, why not just use a good overdrive pedal. Is it that the compression that you're wanting is the tube compression of the Twin?

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by ccbqm

Is there any way to lower the power output of my Fender Twin 65 re-issue? After using the amp on the road for 6 years, I have fallen in love with it and dont want to buy another one just to use at home if I dont have to. Only a Fender Twin is great for 10,000 seat venues, but a little much for my apartment!
-Dave

Go on you know you deserve one. Suit you Sir!
http://www.motherload.co.uk/reviews.html

Regards.•:*¨¨*:•. ¸¸.•´¯`•.Mark Fairfax-Harwood, Engineer Springvale Studios

[grahluk]

Originally Posted by feyshay

In regards to biasing. You should be able to pull out tubes and put the same tubes back into the original positions, right? However, if you were going to replace the tubes with a new duet, you'd have to rebias. You only have to worry about this with power amp tubes.
Correct me if I'm wrong on the above. I'd love to not have to take my very heavy Super Reverb to a tech when replacing power tubes.
The hotplate sounds like an option for the Super Reverb. This thing is very loud and does not distort at all. In fact, it just gets a bit harmonic sounding--quite nice. I'll probably just stick with overdrive.
There's also this attenuator, although it is said to not be as bright as the hotplate.
https://weberspeakerscom.secure.poww...eber/atten.htm

One more question. (This will definitely show my ignorance of this whole subject.) When at home, why not just use a good overdrive pedal. Is it that the compression that you're wanting is the tube compression of the Twin?

Correct preamp and phase inverter tubes require no bias and yes replacing tubes with other ones requires a rebias as the (hopefully matched pair) will most likely require tweaking the bias voltage. What the tube is really looking for is a certain amount of current to be correctly biased. Voltage is just how we determine that current. Real nice bias probes will let you plug a meter in to read that current directly. A little more guerilla approach has folks soldering in a a known quantity resistor and measure the voltage drop across it to calculate current. Bias voltages seen on schematics were specified because at the time of design tube were manufactured to better tolerances than what we get from China and eastern Europe today. Just like much of the tube gear of the day (your TV) replacement tubes were usually just tested as good then popped in. Most folks replacing tubes didn't take it to a tech if it didn't blow up. They just bought the correct replacment and kept rocking. These days though if you are replacing tubes I'd have a tech bias it. What was great before may now run cold (crossover distortion) or hot (early death).

I don't know about the Weber load device. There are a number of these types out there. The THD hotplate is the most well known. The old powersoak devices that were basically just high wattage load resistors are to be avoided at all costs. The amp wants to see a reactive load not a big ass resistor. Your transformer may suffer early death itself from one of these. Marshall made one called the power brake. It was basically just a transformer with the secondary tapped off for lower settings. They were rumored to fry amps. That's rumored. I've never seen one because of it. There are some other newer devices along the lines of the hotplate from some other boutique makers that also get good reviews. Seach some guitar forums like over at Plexipalace. You'll get folks argueing about which is better.

An overdrive pedal is no substitute for an amp. The overdrive pedals do just that. They feed the amp a much hotter but not necessarily distorted signal to push it into distortion/compression.

I used to know quite a bit about this stuff. At one time I did amps for everyone from Motorhead to Soundgarden. It's all getting foggy now. I seem to know less and less every day.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by RUSCO

That's rubbish ! I have removed the two outer tubes of a Fender Twin before with NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER.
I believe the Sovtek output tubes can withstand greater differences in bias voltage.That's what the Tech said anyway.

Well actually your transformers will be rubbish if your not careful.
Not to mention the sound quality will suffer.

Your tech is an idiot

[Midlandmorgan]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Well actually your transformers will be rubbish if your not careful.
Not to mention the sound quality will suffer.

Your tech is an idiot

Pulling two pubes is on old trick that works very well, but remember to reconfigure the speaker load! 4 tubes is used to seeing 4 ohms in a Twin...following P=IE, one would need to reconfigure the speaker load to compensate for the different tube load, so...to half the power output and impedance, one woould need to have an 8 ohm load...

So, disconnect one speaker...This will help reduce the overall volume by reducing the number of drivers as well as reducing the amount of power....this method, BTW, does nothing to the tone that I have ever noticed...some even state that this actually helps tone, as it gives the ability to push more juice.

I tried this once (before Twins got too heavy to lug around): pulled the two outer tubes, replaced the stock speakers with 2 16 ohm Celestions wired to present 8 ohms...very cool 'crossover sound"...still got the impact of 2-12s, but at half the power.

You can also have a tech place a 'half power' switch in your Twin, which will simply disconnect the 4 ohm transformer tap and change it to the 8 ohm tap, AND disconnects a pair of the output tubes.

If I had it to do all over again, I would forego all this, and get a quad set of YellowJackets...convertors to allow the amp to run with some EL84s (I think they could also use 6V6, but not sure...double check before doing so)...There are a few boutique amp companies that make a 2-12 amp running with 4 6V6s, (Victoria, for one) and they simply KILL tone wise....

[Blast9]

Anyone venture to describe the tone and overdrive characteristics of a dimed twin?

I always imagined it would be veryy bassy/farty rather than punchy/crunchy.

is it a pleasant articulate "rock" break-up or mushy "indie" overdrive for want of better adjectives?

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by Blast9

Anyone venture to describe the tone and overdrive characteristics of a dimed twin?

I always imagined it would be veryy bassy/farty rather than punchy/crunchy.

is it a pleasant articulate "rock" break-up or mushy "indie" overdrive for want of better adjectives?

I've never heard it be "bassy/farty" unless the Twin was in bad shape.

Usually it's surprisingly clean; I think my ears distort before the amp does!

[frans]

Pulling tubes will mess with the (=output)impedance your amp wants to see from your speakers. You should have your tech install diodes over the tubesockets, if he is up to snuff he will know what I mean and you need. Some amps will run with two tubes pulled without any trouble - it depends...but who will cry when your amp goes down? YOU. So don't be a miser on this one.
The THD hotplate is a good tool, beware of settings lower than -8 dB...and if you use it DON'T use it with tubes pulled.
Time for some heresy: how about some new different speakers? A 3dB drop in sensitivity will equal less volume than pulling tubes. Ask Ted Weber what to put in there. You will thank me.
By the way: Poison Ivy from the Cramps did put other speakers in her Twin, so can you.

http://www.tedweber.com/

[rufus13]

Who could not love a Fender Twin with all of the loudness? Oh yes, your apartment neighbors. Get a Champ.

I'd be inclined to put more efficient speakers in the case for more volume. A wicked loud model like EVM12L would be just right.

[Bassmec]

Two output tubes pulled, still = Eviction.
Regards.•:*¨¨*:•. ¸¸.•´¯`•.Mark Fairfax-Harwood, Engineer Springvale Studios

[grahluk]

As I posted before, the hard science has vanished into the mist of memory for me but the concepts are still understood. There is some fuzzy notions being presented here on this tube/output thread. Here's another auto analogy to help keep things in the right direction. Your tubes are the car's engine. They provide the power and energy to be transferred. Your speakers are the wheels and tires. They put that energy out to the physical world for you to enjoy. The transformer is the transmision. It takes the energy from the engine/tubes and matches it to a load the tires/speakers can deal with.

The speakers want a certain source impedance and the tubes want a certain load impedance. The transformer takes care of that. If you shortchange the transformer with fewer tubes than it was designed to see, it will work but not very efficiently. If you have a 4 cylinder engine of a given size for a given weight car then remove 2 cylinders from operation it will still produce power. Mate that to the transmission and for all given loads the engine will work harder against that transmission. In the same gear as the 4 cylinder engine and gassed just as hard it will now produce less power at the wheel. That's pulling 1 output tube pair. Now if you're driving it up mountains or racing around that engine will wear out faster. The tires (or speakers in this analogy) will probably be unaffected by the weaker engine. On the other end of this story replacing the wheels or tires of the umodified motor/transmission (tubes/transformer) will do one of a couple things. If you put gokart tires (smaller than rated speaker) on the vehicle that drivetrain will demolish those wheels very quickly as the drivetrain barely sweats those tiny wheels spin themselves silly and grind to death under the forces they weren't designed for. Conversely if you put monster truck wheels on you little 4 cylinder that drivetrain labors just to get the show rolling.

So in this Auto Confucious story you can see that an output tube complement/transformer/speaker load are ideally all designed to work together for maximum efficiency. You can mess with any one of those items for minor or major results that may be negligable or catastrophic when it comes to the life of the unit.

The hotplate type devices are like keeping the car stock and putting it on a dyno where the wheels spin under load but you go nowhere but get to rev the engine all you want.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by rufus13

Who could not love a Fender Twin with all of the loudness? Oh yes, your apartment neighbors. Get a Champ.

I'd be inclined to put more efficient speakers in the case for more volume. A wicked loud model like EVM12L would be just right.

Not the EV's But the JBL D or K 120's chassis with the CBR2204 cone kit (Paper Dome) in. Not Like the EV at 100dB 1 Watt one m But 103 dB and a better cone break up due to cone embossing. I did a pair for a mates twin and I have a pair myself in a nice cab. Use it with an old Marshall JMP 50 flat out. sounds just the dogs.
Regards.•:*¨¨*:•. ¸¸.•´¯`•.Mark Fairfax-Harwood, Engineer Springvale Studios

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[grahluk]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Not the EV's But the JBL D or K 120's chassis with the CBR2204 cone kit (Paper Dome) in. Not Like the EV at 100dB 1 Watt one m But 103 dB and a better cone break up due to cone embossing. I did a pair for a mates twin and I have a pair myself in a nice cab. Use it with an old Marshall JMP 50 flat out. sounds just the dogs.
Regards.•:*¨¨*:•. ¸¸.•´¯`•.Mark Fairfax-Harwood, Engineer Springvale Studios

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Mmmm... that sounds nice. Love me those old orange frame D120's. I've a Hiwatt Dr504 that is currently being paired with a Celestion loaded THD 2x12. Sounds fine but I'm imagining what it would be like with a D120 cab.

[big country]

buy an Epiphone valve Jr head for a hundred bones .thing sounds great.looks way cool to. dont get the combo .

[C/G]

Originally Posted by grahluk

I've a Hiwatt Dr504 that is currently being paired with a Celestion loaded THD 2x12. Sounds fine but I'm imagining what it would be like with a D120 cab.

Or some original 50 watt magnesium-basket Fanes.