Siemens C4 or Siemens Sitral

[RFZ DUDE]

the c4 is IC based and not that hot in my opinion, i´ve had both and would dearly love to get the sitral (all-discrete) desk back.those preamps are damn cool, youll love them.

12 channels is damn fine for summing in my book.

you can think of the sitral as being a much more better made small neve console.

[nickelironsteel]

C4 i would steer away from. its broadcast only and the sound is too clean. Sitral has its own sound which ranges from thin to punchy.

what i recommend is Siemens Austria AG, the early period in the 70s after they were allowed to name themselves Siemens again. They had to name themselves WSW Wiener Schwachstrom Werke (Vienna Weak Current Factories). They utilize a IC-based Mini Module structure with a sound that is unbelieveable. This is the rarest model of them all. The R.Ela.Str.1208 from 1970. 8 Channel Studio Desk. Transistorized. The eq beats any Neve i own for musicality. Its no wonder Neve's 2254 has striking similarities to the schematics of the Siemens U 273 a (C71392-A224-A3) - Begrenzer-Kompressor-Verstärker from 1970. the only difference is that Neve uses Marinair while Siemens used Haufe.

1970 is where they got it right. after that Siemens declined and their designes only lived on in other companies models. Neve is one of them.

google spits out only one picture: Siemens AG Austria 8x2 Console

[RFZ DUDE]

Originally Posted by nickelironsteel

C4 i would steer away from. its broadcast only and the sound is too clean. Sitral has its own sound which ranges from thin to punchy.

what i recommend is Siemens Austria AG, the early period in the 70s after they were allowed to name themselves Siemens again. They had to name themselves WSW Wiener Schwachstrom Werke (Vienna Weak Current Factories). They utilize a IC-based Mini Module structure with a sound that is unbelieveable. This is the rarest model of them all. The R.Ela.Str.1208 from 1970. 8 Channel Studio Desk. Transistorized. The eq beats any Neve i own for musicality. Its no wonder Neve's 2254 has striking similarities to the schematics of the Siemens U 273 a (C71392-A224-A3) - Begrenzer-Kompressor-Verstärker from 1970. the only difference is that Neve uses Marinair while Siemens used Haufe.

1970 is where they got it right. after that Siemens declined and their designes only lived on in other companies models. Neve is one of them.

google spits out only one picture: Siemens AG Austria 8x2 Console

i had exactly one of those consoles (better say mixer) for some month and im so happy i got rid of it.this was nowhere near the quality of a sitral or the likes.i ended up getting a bit over 400 Euros for that.

if you wonder about the origin of the diode limiter ala U273 and 2254 check out the RFZ V713 limiters, those where some time before the Neve & Siemens and utilize that very same concept.those are killer compressors.too bad you really cant find them anymore these days..




back to the desks, if that sitral is reasonably priced id take it without a question asked.now.

[carloff]

The Sitral is already main , only to transport her..
I used to have pair of V276 but prefered much more my Neves and V72 , and REDD 47 ...
so traded it for something else...
Dont you know somebody ( the best close to czech) who is able to make some super refurbish of the desk?I can ask Mr.Eckhard Doll or Hestudio technik...but some specialist for desks?
I have also 8 channel Sitral which I will use for some moduls...and rest I will sell.

[nickelironsteel]

"too bad you really cant find them anymore these days.."

a friend of mine has a RFZ desk with 8 Stereo ins, 4x V781 Pres, 2x V713 comps and 2 EQs.

pm me i can hook you up if youre interested.

[dlmorley]

The C4 is a superb desk and not broadcast only. It was available in a variety of setups and potential uses, recording being one of them. Clearly depends what you want sonically, but to say it is too clean and only broadcast is plain wrong.
Haufe transformers and a wonderful EQ. Quality components throughout. I'm not a tech, but a friend who is said it was all top notch components and a match to a Neve of the same era.
A well maintained one is a lovely desk. Great features too. dual inserts, 4 pre/post aux, floating groups on some and mostly 8 buss. The line in sounds great too..
And they were made in Austria by WSW.

Here is one of mine as I just bought another to combine them.
Of course, sound is a personal thing, but I prefer this to my Studer 089 and Chilton QM3 series that I had before.

Which Sitral desk btw? Just because it says Sitral, doesn't mean it's a good one.

[Mono-Peter]

Originally Posted by nickelironsteel

C4 i would steer away from. its broadcast only and the sound is too clean. Sitral has its own sound which ranges from thin to punchy.

what i recommend is Siemens Austria AG, the early period in the 70s after they were allowed to name themselves Siemens again. They had to name themselves WSW Wiener Schwachstrom Werke (Vienna Weak Current Factories). They utilize a IC-based Mini Module structure with a sound that is unbelieveable. This is the rarest model of them all. The R.Ela.Str.1208 from 1970. 8 Channel Studio Desk. Transistorized. The eq beats any Neve i own for musicality. Its no wonder Neve's 2254 has striking similarities to the schematics of the Siemens U 273 a (C71392-A224-A3) - Begrenzer-Kompressor-Verstärker from 1970. the only difference is that Neve uses Marinair while Siemens used Haufe.

1970 is where they got it right. after that Siemens declined and their designes only lived on in other companies models. Neve is one of them.

google spits out only one picture: Siemens AG Austria 8x2 Console

Sorry, I know most of the Siemens studio and broadcast stuff and this is not a main recording desk but a mobile ELA unit used for on location events, the build quality and topology can't be compared to the V276 / W295 / U273 units. It probably sounds not bad, but promoting this like the holy grale of Siemens is a bit... obvious? .. Are you selling this one.?

The C4 is a great desk, the V2xx series is great, the differences in sound might also depending on the condition of the desks. Changing the caps and aligning the modules proper can improve the sound quality a lot.

Btw, the whole series of Siemens using silicium transistors is called Sitral (silicium-transistor-planar), it goes from C1 to C4...

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by Mono-Peter

Sorry, I know most of the Siemens studio and broadcast stuff and this is not a main recording desk but a mobile ELA unit used for on location events, the build quality and topology can't be compared to the V276 / W295 / U273 units. It probably sounds not bad, but promoting this like the holy grale of Siemens is a bit... obvious? .. Are you selling this one.?

The C4 is a great desk, the V2xx series is great, the differences in sound might also depending on the condition of the desks. Changing the caps and aligning the modules proper can improve the sound quality a lot.

Btw, the whole series of Siemens using silicium transistors is called Sitral (silicium-transistor-planar), it goes from C1 to C4...

Thanks for clearing this up in a thread full of fallacies!

And yes, condition is probably the most important thing. Siemens (at least the non ELA stuff) didn't build anything bad but some of it may have not been looked after so a recap and service will be important on most of them.

[RFZ DUDE]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

The C4 is a superb desk and not broadcast only. It was available in a variety of setups and potential uses, recording being one of them. Clearly depends what you want sonically, but to say it is too clean and only broadcast is plain wrong.
Haufe transformers and a wonderful EQ. Quality components throughout. I'm not a tech, but a friend who is said it was all top notch components and a match to a Neve of the same era.
A well maintained one is a lovely desk. Great features too. dual inserts, 4 pre/post aux, floating groups on some and mostly 8 buss. The line in sounds great too..
And they were made in Austria by WSW.

Here is one of mine as I just bought another to combine them.
Of course, sound is a personal thing, but I prefer this to my Studer 089 and Chilton QM3 series that I had before.

Which Sitral desk btw? Just because it says Sitral, doesn't mean it's a good one.

these are damn good mixers for sure, it is just that the older sitral desks featuring v275, v276, v272, w295 and what not are just a tad more colored in a pleasing way if you will.. they are acutally very nice to service, modifiy & finally use.

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by RFZ DUDE

these are damn good mixers for sure, it is just that the older sitral desks featuring v275, v276, v272, w295 and what not are just a tad more colored in a pleasing way if you will.. they are acutally very nice to service, modifiy & finally use.

I agree with you. Also, the individual modules are easier to service probably.
But as a complete mixer, the C4's are nicely laid out and very complete.
A C4 and a Rack of V series would be the solution

[nickelironsteel]

Yea ive owned a c4 and imho(!) they went down quality wise since their heyday in the 1970s. sorry to hear RFZ DUDE let his ELA 1208 go for 400. those little "Austrian Woodies" usually got for a 5 digit fortune.

[RFZ DUDE]

Originally Posted by nickelironsteel

Yea ive owned a c4 and imho(!) they went down quality wise since their heyday in the 1970s. sorry to hear RFZ DUDE let his ELA 1208 go for 400. those little "Austrian Woodies" usually got for a 5 digit fortune.

yeah, but actually having owned that thing i wouldnt even buy that back for 400.- euros.
i do have the manual and schematics and all and it screams "school gym utility mixer"....at -12dBu, unbalanced...

[chet.d]

Originally Posted by RFZ DUDE

these are damn good mixers for sure, it is just that the older sitral desks featuring v275, v276, v272, w295 and what not are just a tad more colored in a pleasing way if you will.. they are acutally very nice to service, modifiy & finally use.

I'm guessing this is a C4 not Sitral? Any insights here?
(oops, small pic file size)

I'm tempted by this but wondering...

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by chet.d

I'm guessing this is a C4 not Sitral? Any insights here?
(oops, small pic file size)

I'm tempted by this but wondering...

That is a C4 and they were made in Austria (WSW)
I love 'em. Great preamps, lovely overall sound and nice features (for a smaller desk) but I am repeating myself.

[chet.d]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

That is a C4 and they were made in Austria (WSW)
I love 'em. Great preamps, lovely overall sound and nice features (for a smaller desk) but I am repeating myself.

Thanks for that. I'm considering it.

Was looking at the neve 54's but pricing is a bit prohibitive lately.
Kinda sparks my curiosity in Siemens - WSW etc. I'm guessing they're of similar small format quality? But still learning.

Any thoughts on reasonable pricing for such a C4 that's working but certainly in need of tech look over re-cap etc...?

[carloff]

hmm?

[dlmorley]

Damn that's nice!

[dlmorley]

Originally Posted by chet.d

Thanks for that. I'm considering it.

Was looking at the neve 54's but pricing is a bit prohibitive lately.
Kinda sparks my curiosity in Siemens - WSW etc. I'm guessing they're of similar small format quality? But still learning.

Any thoughts on reasonable pricing for such a C4 that's working but certainly in need of tech look over re-cap etc...?

I have never used a smaller Neve so it would be unfair of me to judge BUT I have had a few decent smaller desks and I have preferred the C4. These include a Studer 169 and 089, a Chilton QM3 and an Audix. I liked the raw sound of the Audix which may be more Neve direction but the Siemens is very musical too and had better features AND is affordable (at least in Germany if you find one)

The configurations vary, but a 12 channel with 4 groups might be €2000.

Another suggestion I could offer is a small Calrec. If you find one of them, they are killer.

Yummy

[chet.d]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

I have never used a smaller Neve so it would be unfair of me to judge BUT I have had a few decent smaller desks and I have preferred the C4. These include a Studer 169 and 089, a Chilton QM3 and an Audix. I liked the raw sound of the Audix which may be more Neve direction but the Siemens is very musical too and had better features AND is affordable (at least in Germany if you find one)

The configurations vary, but a 12 channel with 4 groups might be €2000.

Another suggestion I could offer is a small Calrec. If you find one of them, they are killer.

Yummy

Looks like a very nice option indeed!
I can only find larger format Calrecs available at this time.

[chet.d]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

Damn that's nice!

um, yeah.

[nickelironsteel]

looks like a calrec clone of a Neve 542 Series "Drop thro" Console.

The Siemens broadcast desk looks nice as well got 8 channels of a Siemens Ela 1208 myself. lovely if modded properly.

[chet.d]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

The configurations vary, but a 12 channel with 4 groups might be €2000.

hmmm, so 3.5k is a bit steep for a 8 / 2 in good shape.
But, I found one & they don't pop up much.
hmmm..

[dlmorley]

I think that one does have 4 stereo channels which have dual mic preamps, so you can record 4 mono and 4 stereo sources.
Never tried the stereo channels though..and it needs shipping, which would add up too...

[chet.d]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

I think that one does have 4 stereo channels which have dial mic preamps, so you can record 4 mono and 4 stereo sources.
Never tried the stereo channels though..and it needs shipping, which would add up too...

Ahhh yeah, 4 stereo ins (+the 4 mono). Shipping isn't too bad at 300 but, still wondering if 3.5 is too high.
Sorry to distract from the op though he seems to be sorted out w/ a sweet sitral!

[Straton]

I recently came across two siemens sitral, they are in good condition, but i still haven't find the time to connect to the power supply, they were disconnected for a long time now and im a bit afraid, i have clean all the hardware carefully, and maybe next week im going to give it a try.
I also have a few modules that were outside the siemens console that i might connect again .
here some fotos

[dlmorley]

Wow. Beautiful desks Straton

Here is my latest Sitral.