flute spot mic help?

[Igotsoul4u]

the part of your setup that stands out for me is the figure 8 pattern and the mic placement. Most of the pro's I have been around put the mic out 1-2ft and facing down at the head joint and pointing down the rest of the keys. if you have room mics I don't see what the point of using the figure 8 pattern. The best sounding mic i have ever heard was a schoeps cmc6 with cardiod caps. I would avoid ribbon mics for the flute unless its a royer122. Flutes don't put out enough sound pressure IMO.

Overall, your omni's should be giving you most of what you need and the spot is just for a little added presence. If you are adding more room sound into the equation you might start to get phasing. The spot should be tight and only picking up the flute with as little room sound as possible.

[mixmixmix]

try sm57 in mono. You may just love it.

[grrrayson]

That EQ sounds crazy but if that's what it takes, so be it. I've gotten a great sound in a studio with a TLM170 using no EQ. Royer SF series would be great too. 414 should be fine... I've used an RCA 44 as well; if any mic will give you desired phatness, that one will (although noisy).

I'm not a fan of the R84, as it has a very rock-and-roll sounding midrange peak that, although subtle, grates on me. (Same with the Royer 121.) Honestly, I'd stick with your 414. Perhaps you're in a bright room and a cardioid pattern would be more flattering?

What are your reference tracks?

[jnorman]

thanks guys.

igot - i had been using a standard cardioid pattern on the 414, but after comparing it to what i was getting from fig 8 ribbons, the fig 8 seemed to be a bit more transparent blending with the omni pair. 1-2 feet seems about right for pop/jazz material (or even closer), but for classical, you really want to avoid any breath or mechanical noises, and 3-4 feet seems pretty standard for this stuff - it is about what they used on james galway's setup.

mixmix - ha. i have used a couple of good dynamics in the past (421 and 441), and they work okay, but they all have a pretty significant high-end lift, and really tricky proximity problems for flute.

grray - if it is not ridiculous to use such and extreme eq curve, i think i can probably live with the 414 - overall, it is a very nice spot mic for almost any acoustic instrument. i use a variety of reference tracks - fantasie from saint-saens by glorian duo (for flute and harp works), image (bozza) by alexandra grot (for flute solo work), the war cadenza from pied piper by galway, doppler fantasy by ulrike anton (flute and piano), etc.

[leadplayer]

In several situations with orchestral caliber players I've had success with
a TLM-170 (in wide cardioid), a Pearl C22, or a Sennheiser MKH 40 and 8020.
All gave a smooth and present sound without edge or hype. Application was
based on room, orchestration, and style of music.

[stoplaughing]

I might stick with ribbons. I really like r84's on flute. But if you thought The Coles was still too bright, you should try it out before you buy it. I've also chosen a cascade fathead over the r84 for flute. My experience is more with jazz and pop tho- let us know what you end up liking, sounds like you have been on the good search...

[waxx]

i've recorded flute with various mics, from an Senheiser 441 to a schoeps cmc with card cap, and always a bit distance works the best. It also depends on the flute (you have big variations in instrument sound on it if you look at details)

but in your case i would pick a dark sounding mic with an card or omni capsule on a clean pre, and record from enough distance as the flute makes sound on various places in the instrument, not only at the end. half a meter should be the absolute minimum if it's an solo take, and preferable a bit further

[fifthcircle]

Mr. Norman-

I have to say I'm a bit confused here as what you report is often conflicting with my experiences... You've tried a lot of the best microphones out there, but yet you still aren't getting what you want. You say that a ribbon is going to be bright... Really? Do we listen to the same mics? I've never had to roll the top end off of a ribbon. But the 414 BULS which has a very crispy mid-high and high end is working.

My go-to for close micing a flute these days is usually a Sennheiser MKH40 (not 8040, but the older mic). Has a very smooth top end that can take the [sometimes abrasive] high register of a flute. When I need to have a mic for a live jazz gig where the flutist is right on top of the mic, I reach for a TLM170 in hypercardiod or a Sennheiser MD441.

What preamps are you using for this? Have you considered that the issues may not be mics but the rest of your chain? How about the room and the mic's positioning? I don't want to come off as rude, but the mics you've listed are in many cases the mics used for those commercial recordings that you like. If you aren't getting that sound, then perhaps you should step back and reexamine your techniques.

The R84 is another one of my favorite mics. I don't own one (unfortunately) as they are a bit limited in their use for live recordings (they are just too large and I can't get a windscreen for them for when I'm working outside). I rent them regularly, however, and I think they are a first rate ribbon mic along with coles and royer (you should check out the "new" Royer SF-2- it is amazing).

Good luck with your search for your holy grail flute sound.

-Ben

[joeq]

Originally Posted by jnorman

if i record from a medium distance in a nice hall, i can acheive a very smooth flute sound. however, in the studio, where most critical recording is done, it is much more difficult to match what i hear on high-end commercial CDs.

those commercial CDs recorded in a hall?

[jnorman]

thanks again for all the helpful responses.

ben - always nice to have you weigh on my questions. i am not syaing i cant get a good sound - the combo of mics and signal chain i have are giving me very nice results. my question was in regard to the amount of EQ i am having to apply to match what i hear on my reference CDs. and yes, i am abit surprised and confused myself over this, hence my question. yes, i am aware of how mic distance and hall sound affect a flute recording, and in general, i never have this kind of problem with material i have recorded in a nice location - places where i get most of my sound from an ORTF main pair (often km140s or km184s, which are not exactly flat mics to begin with, but in the off-axis ORTF configuration, 7-8 feet distance, and a nice hall ambience give me results that do not require any EQ). it is using close mics in a studio setting where this issues arises. the slightly more distant omni pair gives a great sounding smooth effect, and the spot mic also sounds quite good. but when i compare my mix to the reference CD, i always have quite a bit more bite in the high-end than the CD, and i wind up having to roll off the highs from the spot mic farily extensively to match it. i was just wondering if this is common practice for similar studio-based recordings. it may be that the weakest link in my current chain is my in-box EQ plugs - OTOH, it may even be the players themselves, who, not being amazing pros like galway, simply dont have the same kind of velvety top end to their sound...

[mixmixmix]

James Galway uses very expencive flute with very smooth top end. Your flute is probably is main culprit in getting "Galway" velvety sound. That's why you have to use EQ - the flute itself is too harsh. Peace

[audioconsult]

it´s ages ago i had to record a flute.. started with a sennheiser 441 which is great but ended with a cmv 563 with M7 what gave a great tone on a concert flute. actually complemented nicely with the sennheiser

[Killahurts]

Have professionally recorded flutes for a long time. I never got a good flute sound with a 414. I tried so many mics and setups for so long, I cant' even remember them all.

I tried multiple mics, above, to the side, on the floor, in the room, omni, figure 8, cardioid, dynamics, ribbons.. most of that crap never worked.

Now, I use a single Earthworks SR77 (cardioid SDC), usually in an Earthworks amp which is an extremely fast, "wire with gain" type of pre. This keeps the mids balanced and present, which keeps the high end from sounding shitty. I put the mic in front about three feet away, at ear level. Importantly, I don't point the mic at the head of the flute, where the wind stream is, but in the middle of the whole flute body. I don't look at it as recording a flute, but rather recording the entire airspace surrounding the flute.

Sometimes I have to cut a dB or 2 in the 200-400Hz. range on the resulting track, depending on the material and mix I'm going for, but that's about it.

[Larry Villella]

Personally I'd use an SD Mic on flute.

KM-84, Shoeps, or 3 Zigma come to mind. . .

[Larry Villella]

[PlatinumSamples]

C12A about a foot or so above the flautist's nose parallel with the floor... best fed into a Neve preamp... For room KM54's or M50's... pretty standard Oceanway setup.

Rail

[PaulOcchialini]

Best results I have gotten with flute is a two mic setup, a mic a foot or so from the mouth and a LDC 2 feet above the player in the approximate center of the flute. Generally the projects I work on are players separated in booths so capturing a "Room" sound isn't an option. A little reverb takes care of it though. I see no reason that you can't capture what your looking for with the gear you have, keep experimenting with mic positions. Be aware of phase in the multi mic setup...Best of luck.