Gafflin' beats (RIAA preamps)

[ttauri]

What's a desirable setup for taking samples off vinyl in a recording situation?

I mostly sample for beats n stuff, and for a while it's concerned me such a vital link in my recording is Technics 1200 to 05Pro (DJ mixer) to sampler, or now DAW/softsampler. I feel I should give some more serious consideration to how to improve this particular piece of the chain.

Being hip-hop, I dunno that an audiophile restoration-type setup is called for, but I figure I should at least do something about the pre-amp. Any thoughts?

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Bob Olhsson]

I'd just get a Shure V-15 cartridge. It tracks lots better than a DJ cartridge but is far too delicate for scratching.

[ttauri]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
I'd just get a Shure V-15 cartridge. It tracks lots better than a DJ cartridge but is far too delicate for scratching.

Thanks for the input.

Know if a V-15'd play nice with a 1200's tonearm, or would it prefer a non-DJ turntable?

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Bob Olhsson]

It has a little damper brush on it that makes it compatible with a wide variety of arms. The guy who hired me at Motown stopped by the other day with some CDs of obscure early '60s Motown singles he had made with that cartridge, a Radio Shack DJ mixer and his Sound Blaster card. I wish most reissue CDs sounded as good!

[Thermionic]

You can spend a LOT of cash on a cartridge, that's one reason I've always viewed the V-15 as a kind of cartridge equivalent to the SM57/58, i.e. there are better cartridges but few that offer the same ratio of price to performance.

The s-shape arm on your SL1200/10 is made non-exclusively for Technics at a price of approx $10USD. This company:

http://www.systemsbyshorty.com/index.htm

can provide you with an armboard conversion so that you can fit any arm with a REGA type mount to your SL. Even the basic RB250 (rrp £125 GBP) provides an enormous improvement over the standard arm, the mid-clarity and extra bass-punch will grab you immediately.

[Thermionic]

One of these would provide an improvement over a budget dj-mixer if you do a lot of sampling / listening (it's a fully discrete design, rrp £199GBP):

http://www.phono-stage-riaa-step-up....hono-stage.htm

[Bob Olhsson]

There are more euphoric cartridges but the V-15 sounds amazingly like the source material which is why they have been common in mastering facilities. You certainly CAN spend a fortune but I wouldn't spend a dime on a preamp before comparing it to what I already had. There are some absolutely amazing phono preamp chips available that beat out a lot of gear until you get up into the several thousand dollar price range.

[Thermionic]

Thanks for your comments Bob. The studio deck needs a new cartridge so I might fit a V-15 now I know why they're so popular. With the hi-fi market being full of BS it's tricky to be objective in choosing something like a cartridge, a "neutral" sounding one such as the Shure will be just the ticket. Cheers!

[ttauri]

Originally posted by THERMIONIC
The s-shape arm on your SL1200/10 is made non-exclusively for Technics at a price of approx $10USD. This company:

http://www.systemsbyshorty.com/index.htm

can provide you with an armboard conversion so that you can fit any arm with a REGA type mount to your SL.

Hmmm, I'd sooner just get another table in that case. But if the V-15 can yield good (or let's say notably better, compared to the current Ortofons) results with the standard Technics tonearm, I could put it on a separate headshell, and go with it or my DJ carts as called for, which would certainly be a plus on the convenience tip.

Bob's advice to start with the cartridge and move on from there sounds very good and reasonable to me, so I figure I'll begin with that and then ponder any further adjustments.

Thanks for the suggestions, Thermionic... I'll file them away for future consideration after completing step 1.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[ttauri]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
The guy who hired me at Motown stopped by the other day with some CDs of obscure early '60s Motown singles he had made with that cartridge, a Radio Shack DJ mixer and his Sound Blaster card. I wish most reissue CDs sounded as good!

Yes indeedy, the ability to make a pretty transparent copy of some of my wax'd be a nice fringe benefit... for those cases where the remastering is bent on aggressively "improving" the sound for CD. I burned CDs of my Bobby Womack LPs not too long ago that even going through my system smoked a particular CD compilation that included a lot of the same songs.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Paul Gold]

I'll throw my hat in with the V15 camp. I think it beats the pants off many more expensive cartriges. The SM57 analogy applies to a Stanton 681EEE. I had a V15 on my lathe but I kept destroying them with blasts of high pressure nitrogen. So I put the Stanton on. It's not as high fi but sounds really good. It's great for records in bad shape because it's more forgiving. The vertical L/R balance is better than the V15 and it's built like a tank.

[Thermionic]

Thanks for your comments Paul! One question though: The V-15 was discontinued in the early '90s, up until then there were several variants with a price for all pockets going from $60 USD TO $300 or so USD.

Since the V-15 was re-released in '97 there has only been one model available (to my knowledge), the V-15 XMR. In the UK the xMR retails for £369 GBP (approx $590 USD). A replacement stylus is $225 USD if my memory is correct. I'm prepared to spend that amount on a cartridge, the only concern I have is if I leave the room and clients decide to play with it, $225 is a fair amount if you have hamfisted folk in your studio...

Are you and Bob basing your opinions on the classic v-15 range or the new xMR?

I really need a cartridge that's engineered to be truthful, I suspect many "audiophile" units are designed to have a euphonic quality that's pleasing on a Sunday afternoon, but less than truthful...

Having listened to numerous expensive mc-cartridges etc over the years they seem to have a certain "gloss" in the upper registers coupled with what I'd describe as a pronounced "warmth" (sic) in the low-end, this is not the type of cartridge one wants in a studio (maybe at home with a glass of wine).

Thanks in advance for any comments, not sure which way to turn here!

[ttauri]

Originally posted by Paul Gold So I put the Stanton [681EEE] on. It's not as high fi but sounds really good. It's great for records in bad shape because it's more forgiving. The vertical L/R balance is better than the V15 and it's built like a tank. [/B]

Well here's a thing: I'm definitely throwing a lot of 3-for-a-buck "mystery meat" records on the platter. As you can imagine, often not in great shape. I'm not blasting nitrogen, but should more forgiveness and tank-tuff build be a concern?

If so, would the 681EEE mount on a Technics arm?

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Thermionic]

Originally posted by ttauri


If so, would the 681EEE mount on a Technics arm?

NO PROBLEM!

BTW, if you can find one (if you want one that is) Shure made a V-15 "DJ" with stronger cantilever for back-cueing.

[Thermionic]

Oh Yeah, Stanton are tough as old boots! No worries with "mystery meat".

[Paul Gold]

Originally posted by THERMIONIC
Are you and Bob basing your opinions on the classic v-15 range or the new xMR?

I can't speak for Bob but I'm using the currently available model. I'm not interested in being a slave to ebay. I think I payed $225 for the cartrige and stulus. I forget where I got it but I looked around on the web. Shure will rebuild/replace the styli for $50. I have a couple that need to go back. $600 seems a bit steep. If you would like a non commercial entity(me) to send one across the pond let me know.

[Bob Olhsson]

I meant the new one!

[Thermionic]

Thanks guys!! I'm going to look around on the 'web etc and see what can be found. I might have to take you up on that offer Paul!
My ebay experiences are very mixed, I don't think a cartridge would be sensibly purchased from there. If you get a minute Paul, could you post a link or two for the firm that sold you yours, if that's poss?

Cheers!

[ttauri]

So... with some of the cruddy records I'm looking to play (or in Thermionic's case: with some of the potentially hamfisted clients who'd have access to the TT):

Would the V-15's styli stand up decently to wear and tear? In other words--how nice does one have to treat a V-15 compared to a DJ cart or the 681EEE that Paul mentioned?

Excuse me for repeating myself.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Bob Olhsson]

The V-15 is pretty fragile if you don't use the damper but you can drop the arm on a record with little damage to needle or record when you do use the damper. If you are playing records all day long, the Stanton 681EEE is probably a better bet although it doesn't track as well or sound as neutral. Both are too fragile for DJ work here you are cuing records or scratching.

There is no way to make a rugged cartridge that has low enough moving mass to be a super tracker. It's always an engineering compromise. For somebody who carefully uses a turntable for transfers a few times a week, the Shure is likely to produce better sounding results than more "practical" cartridges.

[Paul Gold]

I got mine here. http://www.musicfactory.com
I don't see it listed on the site but they probably still carry it. I remember $225 being a very good price. Most others were about $50 more.

[entropy]

Aside from the carts, unless you specifically need it for cuts, get the 05pro out of the equation and just get a basic phono preamp (no names spring to mind) or have a look at the higher range stanton decks that have line out. The 05pro is far from clean.

[Thermionic]

Cheers Paul! I'll drop 'em an email today.